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Old 05-25-2020, 06:38 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by thataway4 View Post
A LiFePO4 single cell fully charged will be about 3.5 volts x 4 =14 volts (mine at rest are 13.8 volts). The discharge curve is almost flat at 3.3 volts x 4 = 13.2 volts until it is about 90% discharged when it has dropped to 12.8 volts (same as fully charged AGM). The last 10% is a steep curve to 10.8 volts where it is essentially dead--the BMS should stop the discharge before then. So you don't really have the full 100% capacity of the battery, and I never discharge mine more than 90%. Looking at those numbers, it becomes apparent that a charging voltage of 13.4 is just not going to charge the battery.
If the resting voltage of a fully charged LiFePO4 battery is 3.5 volts then was @Kbwitt was right about the battery fully charging, but more slowly?
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:41 AM   #62
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A good site for learning about this is Will Prowse's Youtube channel (I mentioned one of his videos in post #4):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj...q8kmJme-5dnN0Q
I have watched some of these including the ones where he took the batteries apart to look at the inside and the one where he spoke with the CEO of BB batteries. They were interesting but I don't remember seeing anything about charging the batteries with non-LiFePO4 profiles (ie, at lower voltages). I will look through the channel to see if I missed any of those.

Thanks for the post.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:19 AM   #63
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One thing about the LiFePO4 batteries that continues to puzzle me is the charging. The battery is supposed to charge at approx 14.2 volts but the Zamp solar on my system only says that it is apply 13.4 volts. Similarly the shore power/generator charger only applies 13.4 volts or so. Yes, the pendant boosts that to 14.4 for about 4 hours but then drops back to 13.4 again.

So my question is - what does applying only 13.4 volts to a battery that should be charged to 14.2 volts do? Are the batteries really fully charged when they are marked as "full", but only at 13.4 volts? Does the lower charge damage the batteries in any way? Or does it not matter?
As others have already stated, you really won't get the batteries 100% full with 13.4V charging voltage. After a number of hours at 13.4V they will be pretty full, but not 100%.

The nominal voltage for each cell in a LiFePO4 battery is 3.2 to 3.3 volts. With 4 cells in series, that makes up our "nominal voltage" of 12.8-13.2V for a lithium 12V battery.

This means that once you remove the charging voltage of 14.x volts the battery should drop back down to around 13.2-13.4 volts.

Also you should not leave the batteries with a charger supplying more than about 13.4-13.6volts for long periods of time.

I see that you state that your Pendant does exactly that. It drops to 13.4V as it should.

I don't know if the Pendant is adjustable for how long it applies the 14.4V, it may be that it is fixed at 4 hours. If you take the batteries down to say 30%-40% full then the Pendant may not fully charge the batteries in 4 hours of generator run time.

Your Zamp solar controller. Have you tested the controller when the batteries are only 60%-70% full and the other charges (DC to DC & Pendant) disconnected to see if it does go up to 14.x volts? It could be that it sees the charging voltage from the other sources and/or that your batteries are already at 13.4-13.6 volts so it doesn't supply the higher charging voltage.

Is there any info in the owners manual for the controller to see if it is adjustable?

Is there a monitor for the controller that shows the voltage coming from the solar panels? Or can you take a meter and measure the voltage coming from the panels in full sunlight? I would expect to see about 17-18 volts if the panels are wired in parallel. I think you have stated that you have three 100 watt panels, is that correct?

A couple of links with detailed info about LiFePO4 batteries. The links cover all the different lithium battery chemistry so look for the info on the LiFePO4 battery.

https://batteryuniversity.com/index....ased_batteries
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:01 AM   #64
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Have to replace house batteries (3) I live in AZ I want maitance free . Was looki g at AGM Renogy or Weize. Now wondering about Lithium-ion. If you have and like what brand.
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I am a late entry into this thread.
I am replacing my six, 10yo NAPA 9831DT 105Ah AGM batteries with five 135Ah Vmax AGM's: https://www.bargainshore.com/VMAX-XT...Y-_p_3608.html
If you go with Battle Born or any 100Ah Li battery to replace all three of yours it will cost you around $3,000. My five Vmax AGM's are less then $1.500 and I will have ~675Ah. Yes, in truth only 1/2 of the AGM is available for good life of the battery. But this worked fine at 630Ah. The cost is not worth it to me.

You may have a Xantrex MSW inverter. I suggest that you upgrade your inverter to a true sine wave inverter and stick with Vmax AGM's.

I have a Magnum inverter. It has been a great workhorse. I upgraded the controller from the original to gain access to the inverter features. I was planning to go with Li's. Then I got the idea of building a bank out of Nissan Leaf packs. I just finished this project. Fourteen packs at configured for 14.8V has yielded about 150Ah at best all for about $1,500. This is why I am going back to the AGM's and selling the Leaf packs.
House batteries are always a challenge. Winnebago under designed their power for many years. In my coach I feel they finally got it right.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:47 AM   #65
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I have watched some of these including the ones where he took the batteries apart to look at the inside and the one where he spoke with the CEO of BB batteries. They were interesting but I don't remember seeing anything about charging the batteries with non-LiFePO4 profiles (ie, at lower voltages). I will look through the channel to see if I missed any of those.

Thanks for the post.
I didn't watch all of this so I don't know if it addresses what you want but check it out:

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Old 05-25-2020, 09:54 AM   #66
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Also you should not leave the batteries with a charger supplying more than about 13.4-13.6volts for long periods of time.
The OEM charger that is installed on the RV is from Progressive Dynamics. When I asked them about Lithium batteries they gave me 2 alternatives - the pendant or upgrading to their Lithium compatible charger. The pendant is intended to be an inexpensive and temporary way to address the voltage issue but they recommend the upgraded Lithium charger for normal operations. That will apply 14.4 volts whenever connected to shore power or when running the generator. My understanding is that it will not drop back down until the batteries are full.

So if I install what they recommend for normal operation it will charge the batteries at the higher voltage until they are fully charged. I don't know if that qualifies as "for long periods of time".

Quote:
Originally Posted by al1florida View Post
I don't know if the Pendant is adjustable for how long it applies the 14.4V, it may be that it is fixed at 4 hours. If you take the batteries down to say 30%-40% full then the Pendant may not fully charge the batteries in 4 hours of generator run time.
It is a simple dongle that connects to the charger and it has a button that can be used to change to 14.4 volts for about 4 hours. The time is fixed as there is no way to adjust anything other than changing the setting with the single button. I assume if I want to apply 14.4 volts for longer than 4 hours I need to press the button a second time when the voltage has dropped back down.

However we never run the generator for longer than about an hour and if we are connected to shore power the 4 hour window should apply 4 x 45 AH or 180 AH and that should be enough to fully charge the batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by al1florida View Post
Your Zamp solar controller. Have you tested the controller when the batteries are only 60%-70% full and the other charges (DC to DC & Pendant) disconnected to see if it does go up to 14.x volts? It could be that it sees the charging voltage from the other sources and/or that your batteries are already at 13.4-13.6 volts so it doesn't supply the higher charging voltage.

Is there any info in the owners manual for the controller to see if it is adjustable?

Is there a monitor for the controller that shows the voltage coming from the solar panels? Or can you take a meter and measure the voltage coming from the panels in full sunlight? I would expect to see about 17-18 volts if the panels are wired in parallel. I think you have stated that you have three 100 watt panels, is that correct?
I have checked the solar charge controller when the batteries were down to almost 70% and the charge that was displayed on the Zamp display was 13.4 or 13.5 volts. Of course the solar panels produce a much higher voltage but I assume it is stepped down by the solar controller. And they are wired in parallel so their normal output should be something like 18 volts. I have checked that with a voltmeter, but not recently and, yes, I have 3 100 watt panels. They are all working because I have actually seen just shy of 20 amps coming from the panels when the sun is high and there are no clouds.

The controller itself has several profile settings - wet cell, AGM, Lithium and LiFePO4 but that is the only adjustment that I am aware of. It is set for LiFePO4 and if that is not enough to generate 14.4 volts then I don't know what else I can do other than replace it with some other model. I will call Zamp today and ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by al1florida View Post
A couple of links with detailed info about LiFePO4 batteries. The links cover all the different lithium battery chemistry so look for the info on the LiFePO4 battery.

https://batteryuniversity.com/index....ased_batteries
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion
Thanks. I will take a look.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:27 AM   #67
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When connecting the DC-DC converter, do I connect directly from the converter to the batteries, or do I leave the "aux-start-solenoid" in-line?
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:52 AM   #68
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I didn't watch all of this so I don't know if it addresses what you want but check it out:
So what he seems to be saying is that it is not a good idea to use the charging system of an RV to charge a "deeply discharged" Lithium battery pack and he gave several reasons: (1) it will damage your chassis battery and (2) it will stress your charging system because the Lithium batteries will draw too much power.

I assume he knows what he is talking about, but he left me puzzled since I do not know the definition of "deeply discharged". He left me with the impression that my decision to install a DC-DC charger to limit the current to the BB batteries was probably the right decision but I would like to be able to send him an email and ask some additional questions. Unfortunately I do not have his email address and it was not displayed on the video.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:58 AM   #69
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So what he seems to be saying is that it is not a good idea to use the charging system of an RV to charge a "deeply discharged" Lithium battery pack and he gave several reasons: (1) it will damage your chassis battery and (2) it will stress your charging system because the Lithium batteries will draw too much power.

I assume he knows what he is talking about, but he left me puzzled since I do not know the definition of "deeply discharged". He left me with the impression that my decision to install a DC-DC charger to limit the current to the BB batteries was probably the right decision but I would like to be able to send him an email and ask some additional questions. Unfortunately I do not have his email address and it was not displayed on the video.
This question is asked in the comments for that video, and he does say a DC-DC converter or charger would work to charge the Lithium batteries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Bob
3 months ago
Could you use a DC to DC charger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse
3 months ago
Yes. This video was before there were many DC to DC options beside Sterling. Now you can buy them for cheap. Or could always use own variable dc to DC converter with output set to battery absorption
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Old 05-25-2020, 11:02 AM   #70
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A good site for learning about this is Will Prowse's Youtube channel (I mentioned one of his videos in post #4):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj...q8kmJme-5dnN0Q

Yes, Will's videos are the best on this topic. I have learned a lot from him. Even if you don't want to build your own batteries or solar setup, they are worth watching.
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Old 05-25-2020, 11:22 AM   #71
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This question is asked in the comments for that video, and he does say a DC-DC converter or charger would work to charge the Lithium batteries.
I just watched the video for the second time and could not find anyplace where he even mentioned a DC-DC charger. He did talk about using an inverter and charger to charge the chassis battery to keep it from receiving too large a charge but I did not hear anything about a DC-DC charger being used to charge the house batteries.

His main suggestion seemed to be that people should use solar to charge their house batteries and the alternator to charge their chassis battery. When I had the installer replace my AGMs with BB batteries and install the DC-DC charger I asked him to put an ON/OFF switch in the charger circuit so I could drop it out of the circuit if I wanted, and he did that. Based on what Will Prowse is saying in this video perhaps that is what I should do - allow the solar to charge the house batteries and the alternator to charge the starting battery.

One thing about the video that puzzled me is that he talked about the high voltage coming from solar panels. My panels produce about 18 volts but that is run through a solar controller and that reduces the voltage to 13.4 or 13.5 volts so I don't see what the problem would be. That is essentially the same voltage as comes from the alternator and, as far as I know, the solar power goes only to the house batteries, not the starter battery. Perhaps he is talking about home made systems rather than what comes from RV manufacturers.
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Old 05-25-2020, 12:00 PM   #72
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That's true. There should not be any high voltage coming from solar panels for an RV solar system. The solar panels should always drive a charge controller which charges the battery at an appropriate voltage for whatever battery chemistry is used.
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Old 05-25-2020, 12:14 PM   #73
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This question is asked in the comments for that video, and he does say a DC-DC converter or charger would work to charge the Lithium batteries.
Yes. Here is the review of the DC-DC charger that I had installed on my system.

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Old 05-25-2020, 12:57 PM   #74
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Quick answer - YES! But . . .

1> It depends on your RV lifestyle. If you almost always stay in full hookup parks where you are plugged into shore power - then maybe LiFePO4 batteries are not necessary. But if you dry camp, spend nights off grid, then to get the best performance out of your RV's 12v system then I think they are worth it!

2> Yes - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries cost a lot more - initially. But they also last 10 years - over which their total cost averages out to be far less than having to go through multiples sets of heavy lead-acid batteries. Our 4 new 6v Trojans only lasted about 1 1/2 years before their performance deteriorated too much - even with careful battery management and using my Victron 712 battery monitor.

3> Advantages of LiFePO4 batteries:
- Much more usable capacity. Can easily use at least 80% of a full charge.
- Long, totally maintenance free life span. My Battle Borns have a 10 year warranty
- Charge up MUCH faster. For me this is the absolute BEST feature of these. We used to have to run our generator for hours to get anywhere close to a ful charge on our lead-acids. Found at that was due to their chemistry where their internal resistance increases more and more the higher the charge. Having a solar system as well, this was frustrating because even with full sun all day often the lead-acids would just not charge up enough. But the Battle Born charge fully and completely MUCH faster - a huge benefit as we are capturing much more of our solar power and/or not having to run the gen nearly as much.
- Lighter weight. Always an issue with RVs - we saved ~ 250 lbs by ditching the lead acids and going with LiFePO4 batteries.

4> Disadvantages -
- Besides the high up front cost the only potential disadvantage with Lithium batteries is temperature related - in low temps (<26 F Battery temp) the batteries will not charge. Designed this way to protect their chemistry through a built in control BMS board. However - they can be discharged to below 0 F. What I learned was that this was not really any issue for us. While these batteries have built in protections, we rarely ever camped in temps that low. Also, being in a battery compartment they were somewhat isolated and insulated, and we learned that when discharging (or charging) them they generate a small amount of internal heat - like any battery. Anyway - these temp limitations were minor and were never an issue with us.

Bottom line - once we switched to our 400aH of Battle Born 12v power is not longer an issue. But it does cause one to want to increase your inverter size, be tempted to run your fridge from them, etc.

Also - having a good battery monitor - like the Victron 712 - is essential as you can then see so many things - like charge and discharge rates, accurate % of battery charge, etc, etc, etc. Also - I did not have to replace our Progressive battery converter. Even though it was designed for lead-acid, by having the dongle I can select the charging rate. So if I need to charge up the Battle Born when running gen or plugged in I simply select the highest charge rate and it delivers about 14.5v just fine.

There are a ton of full time RVers on Youtube - virtually ALL of whom have gone with Battle Born setups. Just a few of our favorites -

RV With Tito -

Will Prowse -

RV Geeks - https://www.thervgeeks.com/electrica...-rv-batteries/

Plus MANY others - Technomadia, You, Me and The RV, etc, etc,
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:29 PM   #75
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Rather than use a DC to DC battery charger, I used a 30 amp (max) balance charger. This automatically maintains the balance on my individual cells but requires a battery with a balance cable.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:33 PM   #76
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Actually, the problem with LiFePO4 batteries isn't so much that they won't charge at colder temps below freezing but that charging them at colder temperatures can actually damage the cells. On plus side, though you can store the lithium Iron batteries in your RV over the winter without a trickle charger. (Lead batteries should be removed or maintained by charger).
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:57 PM   #77
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Old,old solar shunt regulators applied full panel output to the battery bank, shorting out the array when the battery bank voltage rose to the designed-in cutoff voltage. Over time, I ruined a battery bank by using a shunt regulator to keep it floated with a 120 watt array.


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That's true. There should not be any high voltage coming from solar panels for an RV solar system. The solar panels should always drive a charge controller which charges the battery at an appropriate voltage for whatever battery chemistry is used.
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:49 PM   #78
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Tony65 - I do not know much about the capacitors you refer to, but you shouldn't make untrue statements about Lithium batteries being so unsafe. The LiFePO4 batteries which Battle Born, and a number of other battery manufacturers, offer have been proven to very safe technology - for many years.

Also - could you please provides links about the capacitors you promote - so I can learn moire about this technology, where they can be purchased, how much they cost, etc.
Thanks
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:57 PM   #79
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The OEM charger that is installed on the RV is from Progressive Dynamics. When I asked them about Lithium batteries they gave me 2 alternatives - the pendant or upgrading to their Lithium compatible charger. The pendant is intended to be an inexpensive and temporary way to address the voltage issue but they recommend the upgraded Lithium charger for normal operations. That will apply 14.4 volts whenever connected to shore power or when running the generator. My understanding is that it will not drop back down until the batteries are full.

So if I install what they recommend for normal operation it will charge the batteries at the higher voltage until they are fully charged. I don't know if that qualifies as "for long periods of time".

Sorry, I should have been clearer. "for long periods of time" I meant leaving at the higher 14.x volts for hours or days after the battery is fully charged.

It is a simple dongle that connects to the charger and it has a button that can be used to change to 14.4 volts for about 4 hours. The time is fixed as there is no way to adjust anything other than changing the setting with the single button. I assume if I want to apply 14.4 volts for longer than 4 hours I need to press the button a second time when the voltage has dropped back down.

However we never run the generator for longer than about an hour and if we are connected to shore power the 4 hour window should apply 4 x 45 AH or 180 AH and that should be enough to fully charge the batteries.



I have checked the solar charge controller when the batteries were down to almost 70% and the charge that was displayed on the Zamp display was 13.4 or 13.5 volts. Of course the solar panels produce a much higher voltage but I assume it is stepped down by the solar controller. And they are wired in parallel so their normal output should be something like 18 volts. I have checked that with a voltmeter, but not recently and, yes, I have 3 100 watt panels. They are all working because I have actually seen just shy of 20 amps coming from the panels when the sun is high and there are no clouds.

The controller itself has several profile settings - wet cell, AGM, Lithium and LiFePO4 but that is the only adjustment that I am aware of. It is set for LiFePO4 and if that is not enough to generate 14.4 volts then I don't know what else I can do other than replace it with some other model. I will call Zamp today and ask.



Thanks. I will take a look.
Hopefully Zamp will provide an answer as to why your controller isn't putting out 14.x volts with solar panels in full sun and the batteries down to about 70% full.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:49 AM   #80
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Isolation manager

I ordered 3 BB batteries BB told me to put my charger on AGM setting and to install a li- bim 225 lithium battery Isolation Manager. That everything will work great.
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