Lithium Batteries - one less objection

[creativepart]

Battleborn batteries announced their Lithium Phosphate batteries that have heating elements contained inside to protect against freezing temps during charging...

https://rvbusiness.com/battle-born-b...h-12v-battery/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scrihxdJiDU

[Winterbagoal]

It's about time......

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300712089.html

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Battleborn batteries announced their Lithium Phosphate batteries that have heating elements contained inside to protect against freezing temps during charging...

Nice. So as soon as the sun comes up, current from the charge controller warms the battery until the BMS determines it can accept charge current. Easy peasy.

[al1florida]

I have never understood all the worry about charging a lithium battery in below freezing air temperatures.

1. The below 32* temp is the internal temp of the battery not the outside air temp.
2. There is some heat generated by discharging and charging the battery. That helps keep the internal temp from dropping below freezing very quickly.
3. Very few RV'ers spend time with outside air temps below 25* to 28* for extended periods of time. I thinking of 2-3 days or longer at those temp.
4. For those who will spend extensive time at below freezing temps, it would be best to put the lithium batteries in an enclosed storage compartment. An enclosed compartment will greatly moderate the outside freezing temps. These folks RV'ing in well below freezing weather have already sent quite a bit of thought and effort in preparing their RV to handle the freezing temps so protecting the batteries would be part of the prep work. Better yet, install the batteries in a compartment in the living area of the RV.
5. The BMS will keep the battery from charging if the battery internal temp is below freezing.

Also it seems to me that most of the comments I read about the limitation of cold weather charging of lithium batteries, come from people who DON'T use lithium batteries. Makes me think that some are just looking for a reason to not use lithium or just to fault the battery technology.

I would feel differently if they would emphasize that it is internal battery temp and not the outside temp that is the concern. It always seems to imply that it is the outside air temp that is the issue.

Folks seem to ignore the fact that if their flooded cell or AGM lead acid batteries are left exposed to 25* temps or lower the capacity of the battery in those temps are reduced quite a bit. So it would be best to add more battery or put them in a protected compartment for extended stays in very cold weather.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the lithium batteries are the best selection for the vast majority of RV'ers. Lithium is best suited for those who dry camp or boondock quite a bit. For those who just overnight w/o elect hookups, lithium is an expensive option.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by al1florida

I have never understood all the worry about charging a lithium battery in below freezing air temperatures.

1. The below 32* temp is the internal temp of the battery not the outside air temp.
2. There is some heat generated by discharging and charging the battery. That helps keep the internal temp from dropping below freezing very quickly.
3. Very few RV'ers spend time with outside air temps below 25* to 28* for extended periods of time. I thinking of 2-3 days or longer at those temp.
4. For those who will spend extensive time at below freezing temps, it would be best to put the lithium batteries in an enclosed storage compartment. An enclosed compartment will greatly moderate the outside freezing temps. These folks RV'ing in well below freezing weather have already sent quite a bit of thought and effort in preparing their RV to handle the freezing temps so protecting the batteries would be part of the prep work. Better yet, install the batteries in a compartment in the living area of the RV.
5. The BMS will keep the battery from charging if the battery internal temp is below freezing.

Also it seems to me that most of the comments I read about the limitation of cold weather charging of lithium batteries, come from people who DON'T use lithium batteries. Makes me think that some are just looking for a reason to not use lithium or just to fault the battery technology.

I would feel differently if they would emphasize that it is internal battery temp and not the outside temp that is the concern. It always seems to imply that it is the outside air temp that is the issue.

Folks seem to ignore the fact that if their flooded cell or AGM lead acid batteries are left exposed to 25* temps or lower the capacity of the battery in those temps are reduced quite a bit. So it would be best to add more battery or put them in a protected compartment for extended stays in very cold weather.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the lithium batteries are the best selection for the vast majority of RV'ers. Lithium is best suited for those who dry camp or boondock quite a bit. For those who just overnight w/o elect hookups, lithium is an expensive option.

Do you use lithium batteries? Just curious.

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by al1florida

I have never understood all the worry about charging a lithium battery in below freezing air temperatures.

If I were to go with Lithium, cold temps wouldn't be a concern. First, I have no intention of camping in weather that would prevent my batts from charging. Second, I would mount the batts in my pass through storage, which is insulated and effectively an interior space. Third, I would be running the heat to keep me warm, thus drawing current from the battery and keeping it warm. Lastly, I would be more worried about my plumbing than my batteries.

[AJMike]

Well, of course this would happen after I bought my batteries. Story of my life ...

On the other hand I don't suppose I have to worry about this too much given where I live.

[Old Navy]

Looks like it's automatic, heating the battery whenever the temp dips too low, and controlled by in internal "thermostat" that keeps the battery between 35 and 45 degrees. You can install a switch to disable the heater so it doesn't waste energy over night. So can just enable the heater when you are ready to charge. If you are not worried about wasting a few Ah's, you lust leave it on.

[gurroz]

I have never been concerned about freezing temperatures. The motorhome has wheels, if things get too cold or in my case too hot we are moving to friendlier climate. I think it is a great feature for off-the-grid-cabins located in cold areas.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Well, of course this would happen after I bought my batteries. Story of my life ...

On the other hand I don't suppose I have to worry about this too much given where I live.

Hey, you were warned about this a while back.
I mentioned Relion's LT Series batteries months/years ago. Same principle, different manufacturer. Nice to see Battle Born finally offering something similar.
So far my 1 year old Relions are functioning as designed. It's just below 32F and sunny here, and the batteries are happily charging off 300W of Zamp/Sun Power rooftop solar.

[dkoldman]

Whoa, I must be lost or on wrong new battery thread

$2,100 for two ? https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...-battery-kits/

I plan to get rid of my factory water filled batteries as soon as they start to go, or out of warranty for something that is maintenance free; but I don't wish to plan to sell my RV to raise money to buy new batteries even with built in heaters

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Do you use lithium batteries? Just curious.

I installed 400AH of lithium batteries in 2016 along with 650 watts of solar.

We also like to travel in the winter or shoulder seasons when we may be exposed to temps in the low 20's on occasion and perhaps down to 10* for a few hours.

I did install our batteries in a cabinet in the bedroom, along with the solar controller and the inverter/charger.

Winnebago, in their "wisdom" put the house batteries on one side near the rear and the inverter that came with the RV on the other side with about 8' of wire between the two. Of course the 2006 Journey was never sold as an extended dry camping RV, any more that most of the RV's are. The setup is more to allow a night or two of dry camping or parking for a night or two someplace.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Whoa, I must be lost or on wrong new battery thread

$2,100 for two ? https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...-battery-kits/

I plan to get rid of my factory water filled batteries as soon as they start to go, or out of warranty for something that is maintenance free; but I don't wish to plan to sell my RV to raise money to buy new batteries even with built in heaters

Amazon has the non-heated Battle Born for $950.

Or you can buy this one here for $570 with free shipping from: https://www.sokbattery.com/100ah-12v...91bnRfaWQiOjJ9

The above battery was tested and given a good review by Will Prowse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxMI...ature=youtu.be

However if you don't do a fair amount of dry camping to justify the extra cost I wouldn't recommend the lithium. $200 for two golf cart batteries at Costco or Sam's Club work fine for the occasional 1-3 night dry camp.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by al1florida

Amazon has the non-heated Battle Born for $950.

Or you can buy this one here for $570 with free shipping from: https://www.sokbattery.com/100ah-12v...91bnRfaWQiOjJ9

The above battery was tested and given a good review by Will Prowse:

However if you don't do a fair amount of dry camping to justify the extra cost I wouldn't recommend the lithium. $200 for two golf cart batteries at Costco or Sam's Club work fine for the occasional 1-3 night dry camp.

This is helpful. I read threads like this because I wish to know what is new. I tend to research a lot then when I know what I want; then I patiently find it at the best price.

I am still trying to find what kind of battery I need?

A few facts or things that I think I know.

1. I have 2 Winnebago Group 24 liquid acids that I have used about a year. They have never gone dead on me. I do have AGS so it kicks on each morning at 7:00 AM when I camp overnight with no shore power
2. I have never camped anywhere where generator running at 7:00am was an issue?
3. I hate the existing batteries because of the water needing to be added, I may be adding too much water? I do occasionally will have acid overflow to the concrete below
4. I think I want future battery to be sealed maintenance free, thus Lithium is option
5. I would think batteries that I would buy would be in range of $250 - $550 in total for two? I don't think these Lithium will be an option for me due to cost?
6. I don't have any solar, not even a simple solar 1000watt controller. I don't have any plans to go solar

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

This is helpful. I read threads like this because I wish to know what is new. I tend to research a lot then when I know what I want; then I patiently find it at the best price.

I am still trying to find what kind of battery I need?

A few facts or things that I think I know.

1. I have 2 Winnebago Group 24 liquid acids that I have used about a year. They have never gone dead on me. I do have AGS so it kicks on each morning at 7:00 AM when I camp overnight with no shore power
2. I have never camped anywhere where generator running at 7:00am was an issue?
Lots of State Parks, National Forest & National Park campgrounds restrict generator use until after 8am. While you may not have an issue, your neighbor may be very unhappy if you are boondocking and you decided to park your RV within 100-200 yards of your neighbor who does NOT use a generator. Also in a campground and your neighbor's tent is just a few feet from your generator they may not be happy with your generator. They may not say anything, but it is being inconsiderate to disturb the peace and quiet others are enjoying.
3. I hate the existing batteries because of the water needing to be added, I may be adding too much water? I do occasionally will have acid overflow to the concrete below
With the cap off of the battery and looking inside you will see a tube with a slot in one or both sides extending down into the battery. The water should not come over the very bottom of the tube and slot. Also the water should never be low enough to expose the plates.
4. I think I want future battery to be sealed maintenance free, thus Lithium is option
AGM batteries are sealed batteries and fit your requirement.
5. I would think batteries that I would buy would be in range of $250 - $550 in total for two? I don't think these Lithium will be an option for me due to cost?
A pair of AGM batteries would work for you.
6. I don't have any solar, not even a simple solar 1000watt controller. I don't have any plans to go solar

See responses inside the quoted part.

You shouldn't need to add water more than every 2-3 months to the flooded cell batteries you have. You DO need to check the water level once a month to be sure the water level is OK. Only add distilled water to the batteries.

If your water level is dropping so quickly that the water level is getting down close to the battery plates, you may have a problem with your charging system. Maybe the charging or float voltage is too high causing the water to boil off.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Whoa, I must be lost or on wrong new battery thread

$2,100 for two ? https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...-battery-kits/

I plan to get rid of my factory water filled batteries as soon as they start to go, or out of warranty for something that is maintenance free; but I don't wish to plan to sell my RV to raise money to buy new batteries even with built in heaters

You can get a 100ah Relion RB100-LT unit for a measly $1348+tax each.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

You can get a 100ah Relion RB100-LT unit for a measly $1348+tax each.

OUCH!!

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by al1florida

I installed 400AH of lithium batteries in 2016 along with 650 watts of solar.

We also like to travel in the winter or shoulder seasons when we may be exposed to temps in the low 20's on occasion and perhaps down to 10* for a few hours.

I did install our batteries in a cabinet in the bedroom, along with the solar controller and the inverter/charger.

Winnebago, in their "wisdom" put the house batteries on one side near the rear and the inverter that came with the RV on the other side with about 8' of wire between the two. Of course the 2006 Journey was never sold as an extended dry camping RV, any more that most of the RV's are. The setup is more to allow a night or two of dry camping or parking for a night or two someplace.

That all sounds about right for factory electrical systems logic and hardware placement. We have a much smaller setup in the Navion because our off grid requirements are fairly light and we're both space and OCCC challenged. The good news about that is any additional wire runs will be shorter and less cumbersome to install. I'd probably upsize to a DP before I'd try to add capacity on our current motor home. If they'd just open the border we'd be able to continue to test and evaluate our "drop in replacement" batteries. Getting too cold to travel up here, and most places closed down with snow season just around the corner.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by al1florida

See responses inside the quoted part.

You shouldn't need to add water more than every 2-3 months to the flooded cell batteries you have. You DO need to check the water level once a month to be sure the water level is OK. Only add distilled water to the batteries.

If your water level is dropping so quickly that the water level is getting down close to the battery plates, you may have a problem with your charging system. Maybe the charging or float voltage is too high causing the water to boil off.

Maybe check the casings for leaks too if the water levels drop quickly. They might have partially frozen at some point and cracked. I lost one 10 years ago to winter.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by al1florida

See responses inside the quoted part.

You shouldn't need to add water more than every 2-3 months to the flooded cell batteries you have. You DO need to check the water level once a month to be sure the water level is OK. Only add distilled water to the batteries.

If your water level is dropping so quickly that the water level is getting down close to the battery plates, you may have a problem with your charging system. Maybe the charging or float voltage is too high causing the water to boil off.

When I get my RV back I will reprogram my Quiet time to END at 8:00 AM. Maybe that will be a little better. Currently the Quiet time START is at 10:00PM. But most parksI stay in say 11:00 PM. I thought 11:00 PM was too late to be running so I changed to 10:00 PM. But in all fairness thus far all of campsite have had shore power so it did not come into play. But if I can get an extra hour on existing batteries; I will soon find out because I do boondock often where we are the only RV around.

I will need to look for the battery tube? I am now 100% certain that I have been putting too much distilled water in it. That distilled water is cheap; so I was trying to ensure that did NOT underfill given I had gone through all of that trouble to get to it

AGM batteries is what I think I was leaning toward. I think I wish to upgrade from Group 24 and get better amp hours. But I will not buy the batteries as long as my existing work. I will stop overfilling because apparently it gets warm and overflows? The batteries don't leak it comes from underneath the caps