Is it doing anything when the master switches are off?

Americanrascal · 01-04-2022, 01:15 PM

I once again apologize for my ignorance, but I flunked everything there is about "lektrisity". Our 38Q has a 100 watt solar panel on the roof. I have never figured out of it continues to offer power to the batteries or converter when both the chassis battery and coach battery switches for the rig are in the off position.

Not sure having the 100 watt panel is an asset, but nonetheless its up there taking up space on the roof and I guess doing something?

Thanks for any guidance on this.

Joe

Morich · 01-04-2022, 03:03 PM

Now that is a good question and we do get some info on it but not the best. That gets difficult as the post- 2010 wiring info is not the real schematic type that was given for older and it leaves us doing far more guessing as we can get location and some wiring ID codes but not a drawing that says "this wire goes here" detail.

So the way I'm guessing is this!
Click each of these drawingsnips to get a better view?

Looking at parts catalog, I spotted the solar panel pretty easy and it tells me it is option 282.
Going to drawings, I found a solar controller located in the center compartment behind the front passenger door.

Going to drawings of the 12Volt sytem on your RV, I scanned and spotted option 282, then the controller located in the compartment.

That tells us there is a detail drawing AC on the chart somewhere.

Detail AC gives the wire ID for wires on the controller and we can go to the wire ID chart to see what each does here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf

Wire ZZD is the ground but wire GJ is listed as going from coach battery power (upstream of disconnect) to solar panel overcurrent protection.

That bit of gibberish seems to mean there is a fuse or breaker in/near the solar panel and it connects to the coach batteries (upstream?) of the disconnect. So my best bet is that the disconnect DOES NOT disconnect the solar panel??? My use of "upstream" has been meaning before so I'm guessing it would mean you have the battery with that wire connected and then the disconnect.

This needs some looking before betting your life on it but I feel like that is correct.

Wayne M · 01-04-2022, 03:18 PM

I get confused looking at those lektrisity diagrams. However, I'll bet that almost all of the Winne's are wired close to each other. My 2008, and now my 2015 has a lot of parasitic draw. In the '08, even when plugged into 110v, I would lose the service battery to parasitic draw.

So, I called Winnebago and asked what is going on with losing service battery down to 11v after 1 week. They said: The biggest draw is the steps. They cannot keep up with the trickle charge. Leave the steps in the "OFF" positions. I did that and never had a problem with the battery going down. Also the stated that the batteries would not charge if the switches providing "lektrisity" (I'm trying to keep it at our level) were turned off.

I park under a roof so I cannot speak for the solar system. In storage I leave my steps out and turned off, just like I would do at a campground. So far, so good!

Richard is a master of the diagrams, I'm an idiot of diagrams.

Morich · 01-04-2022, 03:33 PM

I think of myself, less as a master of the drawings, but more of an old goat butting the dam till something gives!!!
Defintie agreement on the steps and one of the big ones that took some time to figure was actually quite simple once I ran over into dark trying to figure it. After dark, I spotted that there was a light under the step and it stays on and that light bulb was burning off lots of power that I was missing seeing when working in the daylight!

Sometimes the solution is right there in front of us and we need everybody to throw in any light they have on things!! We've probably all been in groups where only one idea was acceptable and I've always hated working for THAT guy!

**creativepart** · 01-04-2022, 04:28 PM

The solar panels are wired to the solar charge controller and the solar charge controller is wired directly to the batteries.

There is no cutoff for the solar charge controller installed from the factory. You can install one if you wish. But it's best to leave it as it is.

And to answer your question it's a great benefit to have that 100w panel and it's even better if you add two more 100w panels. You'll find a 3-port Zamp solar port on your roof and only one of the three inputs is being used. You can buy new 100w solar panels for ~$100 each and then all you need do is mount them on your roof and plug them into the Zamp solar port.

You should be able to find your Zamp 30-amp PWM solar charge controller in the same compartment with your 12v circuit breakers and inverter (assuming you have one). On my Adventurer this is in the compartment directly in front of the stairs and entry door.

So, when you turn off your house battery disconnect it has zero effect on the solar charging system.

My 2017 Adventurer roof:

Americanrascal · 01-05-2022, 04:44 AM

Thanks to all for the great info. I suspected that panel might be cranking some juice even when the batteries are turned off.

Yes the Zamp charger is exactly where you all pointed to. My roof panel is as Creativepart's is set up minus the added panel and the components and wiring are as indicated by Morich. So it appears the batteries are thus getting supplied when the main battery connects are switched are off, which I guess is good. The rig sits in direct sunlight all day. I guess in these days "off" on a switch doesn't necessarily mean "off".

Soooooo, I guess I'll watch were I stick my fingers when I'm fiddling with the juice and everything seems disconnected from here on. I'll be real careful when I change the 110 or 220 oil( Whatever it takes) on the Zamp charger . Still have not found the grease fitting for it! Gotta be careful around that lektrisity !!!

Morich · 01-05-2022, 09:09 AM

It can get evenworse on an RV!
Do you know about parasitic draings? sneaky little things like the COand propane detectors and radio presetsand door steps whch are left on to drain both the coach and start batteries if we are not watching and making sure there is some charging.

Those sneaky things ARE actually left ON when the battery disconnect switches are OFF!!! We have to really work to cut off all power drains!

**creativepart** · 01-05-2022, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Americanrascal

I suspected that panel might be cranking some juice even when the batteries are turned off.

Oops, that's a misconception right there. You are not turning the batteries Off. You are simply turning off most of the connections to most of the 12v loads inside the RV.

There are things that cannot be turned off... like the steps, the C02 detector, etc.

That 100w panel is keeping your house batteries charged up while you are in storage. Which is a pretty good thing.

There is not a lot of danger in the output from the solar charge controller. And, it just runs two wires to the roof and two wires to the batteries. It's not like it's running power all through your RV.

PS. Nice Mr. Mom reference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II4-HnWRQK0

Americanrascal · 01-05-2022, 08:20 PM

Great info that I did not know Creativepart. We get long cloudy stretches sometimes lasting a week or so during the winter so I wonder how much I am really getting out of the solar. Always loved that movie! Definitely a memorable line in that script.

Americanrascal · 01-05-2022, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

It can get evenworse on an RV!
Do you know about parasitic draings? sneaky little things like the COand propane detectors and radio presetsand door steps whch are left on to drain both the coach and start batteries if we are not watching and making sure there is some charging.

Those sneaky things ARE actually left ON when the battery disconnect switches are OFF!!! We have to really work to cut off all power drains!

Yes they are problematic and an ongoing concern. I try to get it plugged into shore power every week or so to keep the batteries up. Not sure how far that Solar panel will go at 100 watts to help keeping things topped off.

**creativepart** · 01-05-2022, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Americanrascal

Not sure how far that Solar panel will go at 100 watts to help keeping things topped off.

In my experience if not parked under a cover and the main house and chassis battery cutoffs are turned off you should be pretty well taken care of - even in cloudy winter times. Not with snow on top, but other than that it's pretty effecient.

Bare in mind, I use my RV quite a lot and rarely go longer than 30 to 45 days in storage before using it. So, if your RV sits for longer periods that could make a difference. But you should be visiting the RV once per month to exercise the generator for 30 mins to an hour anyway.

When you do that, just check your battery's voltage on the OnePlace monitor before starting the generator. That will tell you how well you are keeping things charged up.

Americanrascal · 01-06-2022, 05:12 AM

Thanks Creativpart. I visit the rig (20' from house) almost very other day or so. Mostly because the DW has instructed me to go get something from the rig and I am always eyeballing it for leaks. I'm a dead on fanatic about exercising the genny under load regularly.

We too use the rig mostly every 45 days or so, but we're in a long stretch now because of weather and other factors. Thus far I have not noticed any significant battery drain, but I sure like them topped off at all times.

I often can keep the moho plugged up into a dedicated 50 amp outlet on the house for constant charging power, 24/7 but as these severe thunderstorms run through I tend to keep the shore line retracted and stored. Just have had too may lighting strikes around the house over the years which keeps me on edge-- so I like to keep it unplugged and the power line stowed when the weather gets sporty.

Morich · 01-06-2022, 07:54 AM

A couple small point to keep in mind may good.
The question of the output from the solar makes for less worry as it is just DC going to the charge and batteries and that means for sure less than 20 volts and we can handle that with bare hands in most case, so no danger of shock!

A smallpoint on what might work, depending on your situation for cutting the drains. Sounds like you may not need to worry it mcuh but if things change (don't they always?) and you do want to totally kill the drains, we found putting a battery kill switch on the negative side of the battery to just open when we stored, was easy for me.
Circuits need a full circle to move power so adding this little gizmo on the negative side cuts all power.
Lots of different options of the type but this makes it easy to pop open the lid, turn the big knob and all power is gone!
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-s...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

**creativepart** · 01-06-2022, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

we found putting a battery kill switch on the negative side of the battery to just open when we stored, was easy for me.

Woah, there! On Americanrascal's RV this would create an issue with the inverter. No doubt he has a Magnum inverter on his RV and you cannot ever remove the negative side first. It can totally fry the inverter.

Assuming his 2016 Adventurer is exactly like my 2017 Adventurer there is a rotary cutoff switch mounted on the compartment wall where the inverter lives. If that is turned off first, then you can add the negative cut off device you mention. But leaving the inverter connected to positive without a chassis negative connection can (will?) fry the circuit board inside the inverter as it searches elsewhere for a negative ground via the tiny circuit board traces.

Americanrascal · 01-06-2022, 03:39 PM

Thanks Creativepart and Morich for the follow up. I think I'm going to leave all as is as I feel comfortable with the set up.

I was in the rig this morning (found another head scratching problem I may start another thread on) and noticed both batteries were at 13.6 volts when I put the switches to the on position which made me more comfortable. It has been off shore power for about a week so they had not bled down much. After fiddling around in the rig after I shut both batteries off and I noticed the LP alarm was not powered on my rig. Not sure about the steps as I leave them out when in storage. I did notice a green light on in the back of the electronics bay in the brow where all the Riverpark toys are located--while the batteries were off.

You mention the rotary cut off and I wonder if that has any function with regards to the solar panel feed and all the hidden phantom loads ? I have only used it once or twice over the years.

Joe

Morich · 01-06-2022, 04:27 PM

The small differences do often add up to a bunch of things that can change the whole picture, so that is where I really feel like we are guessing when we look at what one RV has versus what another has and try to apply what is true for one to the other!
My Rv have never had a really worthwhile inverter, so what works for it is just that---something that works for that RV!

And that leaves us very much in the dark for what the post 2010 Rv will have as those drawings are no longer online. If we get past the 2010 point on guessing it can get very much like guessing what the current cell phone has versus one from 10 years ago?
Anybody who puts much stock in that guess is really sticking it out there!

71_340 · 01-09-2022, 08:53 PM

I have a 100-watt panel on my roof and it keeps two coach and one chassis battery full at all times.

Solar panels are wired directly to the battery (via the controller of course) and will charge regardless of battery switch position.

**creativepart** · 01-10-2022, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Americanrascal

noticed both batteries were at 13.6 volts when I put the switches to the on position which made me more comfortable. It has been off shore power for about a week so they had not bled down much.

Time to learn about batteries, Joe.

Many times you’ll use the voltmeter in your coach and see battery voltages that are not really the battery’s voltage.

Here’s why,

A fully charges battery is ~12.7v. Period. So if at any time you look at your volt meter and see something 13v or higher you are not seeing the battery voltage you are seeing the voltage of something charging your battery. That something is either your converter, your alternator OR your solar charge controller.

When you looked at you battery voltage and saw 13.6v you were seeing proof that your solar panel was charging your batteries. What you don’t have any idea of is what your battery’s voltage actually was at that time.

If you checked your voltage at 10 or 11 at night then you’d have a much better idea of the actual voltage and how much they “bleed down.”

To read battery voltage with a voltmeter the battery needs to be at rest - not being charged or drawn down - for a number of hours.

You need to wait a number of hours because if you check the voltage right after a charge or usage has ended the number will be showing a false surface charge.

Since you can’t turn off the solar panel and solar charger you should only check your battery’s voltage after a few hours of darkness to get a true indication of their state of charge (SOC).

The better way to know your battery SOC is to install a shunt based battery monitor. It tracks amps into and out of the batteries and provides SOC without needing the batteries to be at rest.

Morich · 01-10-2022, 08:34 AM

Oh no! Tell me I don't have to know that lektric stuff and now even kemisery, too!
YUP! To understand batteries we have to talk kemisery!
But not very deep as it works like water in a bucket!

A battery is a chemical thing with 6 cells, so if we had a line of 6 buckets and we put color like black ink in the first bucket we might put the ink in and look and the water really looks black but if we stop putting ink in and come back in an hour or so, we may not see much color at all because the water color has spread out in all the buckets and become "stable".
So when we put a charge in the first cell of the battery it kind of "piles up" and shows more than after we let the battery become stable after a few hours.
Surface charge is a sneaky thing that can easily make us think our battery is much better than actual fact.
When wanting to charge faster,we put 13-14 volts in to speed things along but it won't stay as that is higher than the normal lead/acid reaction will do!

RTrider · 01-10-2022, 12:53 PM

I also have a 38Q, but a '14. I find the solar panel helps, but 100 watt unit is not enough with 4 batteries. I am in FL, but I have partial shade when in storage. I have found that turning off the inverter disconnect right behind the solar charge controller reduces the battery drain. I wish I had the connector for additional solar panels like shown in the picture posted by creative parts. It would make adding additional solar very easy.