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Old 12-28-2013, 11:12 AM   #1
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Inverter

Pros and cons of a more powerful inverter for my '13 View? How much hassle to exchange? I'd like to make a cup of Keurig coffee in the morning without starting the generator
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #2
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For me I don't use any device that is high wattage while using the inverter as it draws the battery bank down quickly putting a heavy strain on the battery bank. Your battery bank has a finite number of discharge and charge cycles.

I always use the generator when a high wattage device is needed.

if you want a higher wattage inverter than the one I would suggest is the Magnum PureSineWave MS 2000 watt or 2800 watts.

http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/u...sheet_revi.pdf

Magnum Energy, Inc. | The Powerful Difference – Inverters, Inverter/Chargers, Interconnection System Equipment, and Accessories

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Old 12-28-2013, 11:43 AM   #3
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More inverter also means more batteries however how big a hassle to change depends on the current install and thus I can not answer.

IF it is easy to get to and IF it is already wired for the job.. No tribble at all.

IF on the other hand it's burried somewhere in a wall, Easier to add a small "Stand alone" inverter to a dedicated outlet near the coffee maker and use it only when you need to.
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:13 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by pvanderstoep View Post
Pros and cons of a more powerful inverter for my '13 View? How much hassle to exchange? I'd like to make a cup of Keurig coffee in the morning without starting the generator
I use a teapot, sauce pan, etc and a Mellitta pour over with #2 filters instead. Heat the water any way you prefer, uses any ground coffee avaialable where you are camping, filters are available at most grocers and takes up less space too.



Otherwise just get a inverter on sale at Harbor Freight that is big enough to run the Keurig, wire it direct to the house batteries and when the Keurig dies or you grow tired of it you have not gone to a lot of expense and can just leave the $100 inverter in the basement or at home in your garage.

Lets face it real estate for storing things is at a premium and space/weight capacity for adding extra batteries is basically non-existant in a View so you might find simple more advantageous.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:11 AM   #5
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Below is from the Keurig site, this will give you an idea of the power needed. Keurig home brewers use the most power during their initial start up. When heating for the first time after being off, peak usage is 1,500 watts. If the power is kept on, the brewer will keep the internal tank up to temperature using between 200 – 400 watts when heating. While idle and not maintaining heat, the brewer will use the average electricity of a 60 watt light bulb.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:16 AM   #6
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Checked one of my Keurigs with a kill-a-watt meter.

Cold start until ready ~1400W -about 45 sec (will time the next time). I suspect if you put hot water in the time would be less to reach brew temp.

Dropped to ~700w for a few sec and then down to ~3w.

Brewed a coffee and it went up to ~700w then back to ~400w and after brew back to ~3w. Will put on kwh mode to see average consumption for 24hr and count coffee brewed. We leave our S&B keurig on all the time. Not so in RV.

Would think any 1500W inverter would work but the high current drain was not long so it would not be a huge drain on the batteries overall.

Not really relevant to Inverter selection but I still have my > 50 yr old standard camping perculator. It has a lot of dents and looks pretty ratty. Wife wants to toss it out but I am keeping it until it dies. Love to use it on a regular campfire or now on my grill that goes over by propane campfire. I just like the smell of coffee brewing. Sometimes I brew on the propane stove in the RV. It is 0 kwh all the time, but nothing is free, energy is still being used. Have brewed coffee with a propane torch when I had nothing else available. It works but a bit slow but it is real easy on the battery.
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:30 AM   #7
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Said I would run the Keurig through more tests. This is the Special Edition version with the LCD Display and indicator lights and a water container on the side.

Here are the findings:

In 24Hrs with it powered on all the time, the Keurig consumed .71 kwh of electicity.

@10 cents per kwh = 7 cents per day
Unit made 7 cups (ea 10oz) of coffee during this period. More cups = more energy consumed.

With the unit idle it drew ~3w.

To brew/heat it drew 1350W for 15 sec
Lowered to 403W for 3 sec and to 225W for 2 sec and back to 3w and when coffee was done it went back to 1350W for 35sec and ready to repeat cycle for another cup.

For DC draw from a battery assuming a PF of .9 for the Inverter it is easy to calculate the current drain on a battery based on the wattage provided.

I have a one cup, 8oz brew per water fill in my RV, no LCD so it would likely draw less power

Hope this analysis helps in the selection of the right inverter/battery combo to brew coffee (or any beverage) using a Keurig.
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:40 AM   #8
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We have a 2KW inverter in our MH and it runs our Keurig just fine. Can't comment on the battery life though.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:36 AM   #9
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We have a 2KW inverter in our MH and it runs our Keurig just fine. Can't comment on the battery life though.
X2....
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:55 PM   #10
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Inverter size, battery life and size are a big discussion on irv2. Here is the bottom line. P=E*I. 1500W at ~12V will need 125A from the battery with enough time at that rate of discharge to make your coffee. If you retrofit the inverter, you must add batteries to your bank and even increase the size of the 12V wires. Do you have room in your coach to do this? Don't forget the added weight must be considered.

I think running the generator is a bit more practical before and after curfew in the park.

Happy trails, Happy New Year and good hot coffee to you.

Rick
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:42 PM   #11
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Inverter size, battery life and size are a big discussion on irv2. Here is the bottom line. P=E*I. 1500W at ~12V will need 125A from the battery with enough time at that rate of discharge to make your coffee.
Rick, I think that there is some confusion on the rate of electrical consumption vs the actual amount of electrical consumption. The 1500W rating is a per hour rate, not a unit of use. Seeing as how my Keurig brews for only about 5 minutes (at a rate of 1500W per hour) it only uses about 125W total, or 10 amps @ 12vdc for that cycle.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:25 PM   #12
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If you do decide to change your inverter, make sure you go with a quality Pure Sine inverter. Respectfully, someone above mentioned Harbor Freight. I shop there often, but there prices are cheaper for a reason. With something as important and critical to RVing as an inverter, I strongly suggest you do your homework before buying.

When I had my solar panels installed, the RV dealership installed a 1500w Pure Sine inverter. This was part of the "Weekender Solar Package" by "Go Power". Although I have not had a lot of time to play with the solar package, the inverter appears to be of good quality.

Good luck!
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by PushedAround View Post
Rick, I think that there is some confusion on the rate of electrical consumption vs the actual amount of electrical consumption. The 1500W rating is a per hour rate, not a unit of use. Seeing as how my Keurig brews for only about 5 minutes (at a rate of 1500W per hour) it only uses about 125W total, or 10 amps @ 12vdc for that cycle.
Actually KWh would be a measure of electricity consumed.

So, 1.5 KW. x .083 (hours) = 0.1245 KWh

0.1245 KWh x 0.10 (average utility rate) = 0.01245 Or about 1 penny's worth of electricity.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:57 AM   #14
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If you do decide to change your inverter, make sure you go with a quality Pure Sine inverter. Respectfully, someone above mentioned Harbor Freight. I shop there often, but there prices are cheaper for a reason. With something as important and critical to RVing as an inverter, I strongly suggest you do your homework before buying.

When I had my solar panels installed, the RV dealership installed a 1500w Pure Sine inverter. This was part of the "Weekender Solar Package" by "Go Power". Although I have not had a lot of time to play with the solar package, the inverter appears to be of good quality.

Good luck!
We are talking about investing how much to add a bigger inverter to run a specialized coffee maker in a realatively small Navion/View with limited space for additional batteries and potentially limted space for installing a much larger inverter.

Spending $1,200 to $2,000 on upgrading to a bigger Inverer/Charger or adding a $500 PureSine stand alone inverter to run a $50 to $100 something Kuerig single serving coffee maker in a View instead of using a $10 filter cone on a coffee cup does seem a bit excessive.

If commited to 12 volts and single serving there are other options too such as the PowerHunt single serving coffee maker which uses a special 50 amp socket which they sell also but it requires no additional inverter and uses coffee available everywhere:
12 Volt Coffee Maker

Check out PowerHunts Web Site:
http://www.power-hunt.com/
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Old 01-01-2014, 11:44 AM   #15
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Rick, I think that there is some confusion on the rate of electrical consumption vs the actual amount of electrical consumption. The 1500W rating is a per hour rate, not a unit of use. Seeing as how my Keurig brews for only about 5 minutes (at a rate of 1500W per hour) it only uses about 125W total, or 10 amps @ 12vdc for that cycle.
I respectively disagree. Resistive loads are the topic here. 1000W draws 8.3 amps at 120 VAC or 83 amps at 12 VDC. The physical hardware and wire must be rated for the expected load. A 500W inverter is way too small for a 1500W coffee pot. The power consumption is for any moment in time of usage and not posted for the time of brewing usage. I know you would not run your 20A compressor for your air tools on a 15A circuit. Why try to run a 12.5A coffee pot on a 4A circuit?

I hope you see my point. Many think as you. I have many years of designing and installing electrical circuits. I once thought as you do, before I was trained.

Happy trails and Happy New Year,
Rick
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:39 PM   #16
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I hope you see my point. Many think as you. I have many years of designing and installing electrical circuits. I once thought as you do, before I was trained.

Happy trails and Happy New Year,
Rick
Your point is correct but was not what I was trying to convey. I build electrical control panels and do understand all of the principles here, but was trying to simply explain that even though there is an instantaneous load of 125 amps on the batteries (and of course the inverter and wiring must be sized appropriately), running my Keurig for 5 minutes will not suck 125 amps of power out of my batteries, probably more like 10 amps.

I guess that did not come across clearly. Wouldn't be the first time, thanks.
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:18 PM   #17
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Jerichoric

Right on. One has to size the supply for the maximum momentary current at the appropriate supply voltage rating. (If an intermediate voltage change device is used, the PF component for that device must be factored also). IE the power factor for an inverter for example likely being ~.9 and of course the 120Vac current is ~1/10 of 12v DC side plus the inverter overhead must be added to the DC current.

Re KWH the calculation, if the load drew 1KW for one minute only, then the KWH that would be 1/60 thus resulting in .0166KWH. A meanless number for circuit wiring but would be significant for overall battery drain which are normally rated in Amps/H.

Agree, this is engineering 101 or what is covered in basic electricity training courses.

Personally, I would not purchase an inverter sized to accomodate the maximum power required for a Keurig coffee maker if that is the only planned use for the inverter. There are so many other ways to make coffee as noted previously without having 120v but it could be done without significant degredation on most batteries for this short duration. Note I timed the power cycle load in an earlier post for a Keurig. It was much less than 2 min duration for high current drain.

Other than light loads, I start the gen if I am not on shore power or if I am running the engine, while driving for example, we have used our inverter for heavier loads such as a crockpot while on the road. It all comes down to the battery capacity when considering inverter usage after the proper wiring is applied.

Good discussion that overall provided a lot of info for the OP to consider re the Inverter selection question.
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:36 PM   #18
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Bigger inverter, more batteries, lots of money spent for very little results. We dry camp about one third the time in winter. We use a French press and tea pot on stove when not plugged in somewhere. The kuerig is fine for your he average person, but if you want to bring the coffee experience to a whole different level, get a French press. Use the stove to heat the water.

Buy the way, I speak from experience, I owned an coffee house for 12 years. I can assure, you will never get an better cup of coffee than a French press will make. $40 for the press,
No inverter to buy, no extra batteries, no turning on the Genny early in the morning.
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:24 PM   #19
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Bigger inverter, more batteries, lots of money spent for very little results. We dry camp about one third the time in winter. We use a French press and tea pot on stove when not plugged in somewhere. The kuerig is fine for your he average person, but if you want to bring the coffee experience to a whole different level, get a French press. Use the stove to heat the water.

Buy the way, I speak from experience, I owned an coffee house for 12 years. I can assure, you will never get an better cup of coffee than a French press will make. $40 for the press,
No inverter to buy, no extra batteries, no turning on the Genny early in the morning.
Exactly.

The Keurig while convieniant only makes an OK cup of coffee, its not bad and it is drinkable but not what I would assign to greatness. In November while camping I was visiting with another Motorbike Rider who was still on his quest for a k-cup that made great coffee and had a rack full of cartridges that he was less than thrilled with and offering to anyone who had a Keurig on the chance that they might find them palatable.

Maybe I am too fussy but the #1 will be the vaccuum pot followed by espresso machine (15 bar and above), stove top Balietti espresso pot (stainless steel), French Press, pour over, old fasioned stove top perk (stainless steel or enameled steel), drip machine of respectable quality, Keurig and forget about all the really cheap plastice petro/vinyl smelling and tasting things out there that make carboard and chemical tasting coffee.

The coffee itself is just as important as what you brew it in. Good coffee can even be made in a brown paper bag placed in a fire pit full of embers and hot coals.

No need to spend thousands of dollars in the pursuit of a good morning cup of coffee.
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:49 PM   #20
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Your point is correct but was not what I was trying to convey. I build electrical control panels and do understand all of the principles here, but was trying to simply explain that even though there is an instantaneous load of 125 amps on the batteries (and of course the inverter and wiring must be sized appropriately), running my Keurig for 5 minutes will not suck 125 amps of power out of my batteries, probably more like 10 amps. I guess that did not come across clearly. Wouldn't be the first time, thanks.
Electricity consumption is expressed in unit x time. KWh or watt hours or amp hours

Batteries typically specify they can supply X amps for Y hours Which is amp hours.

A load on your batteries of 125 amps for 5 minutes DOES INDEED SUCK 125 amps out of your batteries.

Since 5 minutes is approximately 0.83 hours

125 x 0.83 = 10.375 amp hours

I suppose it was because you expressed your units of measurement incorrectly, it was throwing
everyone off. :-)
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