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Old 04-06-2020, 04:16 PM   #21
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The "converter" is the device on your RV that powers all 12v appliances AND charges your House batteries when you plug into shore power.'

So, he's saying that he chose the batteries he did because the converter that comes standard (or stock) on his RV offers charging profiles better suited to his new batteries.

Converter/Chargers have two jobs. First they take 110v shore power and convert it to 12v to power your RV's lights and other 12v items. Second, they are battery chargers. Newer RVs usually have converters that are smart chargers and can apply 3 or 4 specific charge profiles to keep your batteries charged and healthy.

These are standard devices on all RVs except those with Inverter/Chargers. Inverters are kind of opposite of Converters. Instead of taking 110v shore power and converting it to 12v, Inverters take 12v from the house batteries and invert it to 110v for A/C appliances.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:45 PM   #22
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Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the "stock converter" you refer to? Is that just part of the standard OEM alternator connection to the house batteries? Or is it something else.

And are these batteries that you can just drop into the RV without having to add any other equipment? $600 is expensive but a lot less than the $1000 for each Lithium 100AH battery, and if it does not require any additional equipment that is another savings.

My alternative is to get a single 100AH Lithium battery + the alternator isolator and then add another battery in a year or two. That would also work but is more expensive and would require that I use the RV with only a single house battery for one or more years and I am not sure I am comfortable with that.
The 12V Group 31 size Fullriver AGM batteries I'm using are the standard Group 31 size for batteries that are available in many auto stores (whether they be liquid acid type or AGM type). So the 115AH Fullrivers that you and I are referring to will fit where any 12V Group 31 battery will fit. AGM batteries can even be laid on their side, while liquid acid batteries cannot, and ... liquid acid batteries have to have water added to them periodically, while AGM batteries do not and AGM batteries don't corrode metal items around them.

AGM batteries charge fast enough for me such that I didn't need to buy any other equipment to take care of them other what came in my RV - this includes the single stage fixed voltage converter that came in the RV (and most RVs) - and the engine's alternator when traveling or idling the engine.

For me, lithium batteries would require a different charger than my RV's converter ... so I'd have to buy one and install it ... in addition to paying the high price for lithium batteries. PLUS ... lithium batteries have some usage negatives that I don't prefer.

As I said earlier, I chose Fullriver 12V deep cycle batteries because the converter in my RV would not harm them over time, while at the same time the converter could charge them fast enough.
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Old 04-07-2020, 06:05 AM   #23
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As I said earlier, I chose Fullriver 12V deep cycle batteries because the converter in my RV would not harm them over time, while at the same time the converter could charge them fast enough.
Where did you get the Fullriver AGM batteries?

One of the issues I will have this Summer (assuming that things are back to some semblance of normal) is that we spend 2 days at a hot mineral water campground in the New Mexico mountains. The campground, which is pretty primitive, is heavily covered by trees and there is not much sunlight to reach the solar panels. In addition the campground, which is private, prohibits any generator usage at all, and our current 65AH batteries will not last that long. The last time we went to this place we had to close up and drive around to somewhere we could use the generator to recharge the batteries so we would have enough to last through day 2.

Two Lithium batteries are too much for my budget right now and a single one would probably not provide enough power for us for 2 days so I think I will need to go with the 2 115AH AGM batteries. Given that I wanted to ask where you got them. I will have to have the hanging shelf reinforced to make sure it can hold the added weight but that is probably my best solution.
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Old 04-07-2020, 11:53 AM   #24
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Where did you get the Fullriver AGM batteries?

One of the issues I will have this Summer (assuming that things are back to some semblance of normal) is that we spend 2 days at a hot mineral water campground in the New Mexico mountains. The campground, which is pretty primitive, is heavily covered by trees and there is not much sunlight to reach the solar panels. In addition the campground, which is private, prohibits any generator usage at all, and our current 65AH batteries will not last that long. The last time we went to this place we had to close up and drive around to somewhere we could use the generator to recharge the batteries so we would have enough to last through day 2.

Two Lithium batteries are too much for my budget right now and a single one would probably not provide enough power for us for 2 days so I think I will need to go with the 2 115AH AGM batteries. Given that I wanted to ask where you got them. I will have to have the hanging shelf reinforced to make sure it can hold the added weight but that is probably my best solution.
I bought our Fullriver batteries directly from a local battery distributor that I drove to. Most likely any marine products supplier could get them for you. I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe that AGM batteries can even be shipped to home addresses.

We don't have solar, so lately (instead of using the generator) when camping I've begun keeping our two Fullriver batteries partially charged by merely idling the chassis engine a bit - maybe one to one-and-a-half hours every other day or so. Our Ford E450 chassis 130 amp alternator really dumps the amps into our batteries during this short time (up to 80 amps at only idle RPM) - but here's another bonus from doing this ... our Ford V10 engine idles so ultra quiet (quieter than any generator) ... that I can idle it anytime without irritating anyone, including ourselves.

Your RV has a diesel engine that may not be quiet enough to do this, and you should also check with Ford to see if it can be idled for 1-2 hours without damaging it. Fuel consumption cost when battery charging this way is insignificant as compared to the convenience of being able to do it without bothering anyone and when solar may not be viable.
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:05 AM   #25
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Your RV has a diesel engine that may not be quiet enough to do this, and you should also check with Ford to see if it can be idled for 1-2 hours without damaging it.
The diesel is too noisy. If I run it it will disturb the neighbors, and all Ford says in their docs is that the diesel should not be idled "excessively" although there is no definition of what excessive means.

I guess I have come to the conclusion that I either need to get 2 Lithium batteries or 2 AGMs. The idea that I could get by on a single Lithium until I felt I could afford a second one just does not seem reasonable given how low the voltage is with our current 2 AGMs in the morning.

Moreover there does seem to be some discrepancy as to what 50% of battery power is, at least that is what I feel after speaking with a Lifeline battery rep yesterday, although perhaps that is meat for a different thread.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:39 PM   #26
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Batteries are an extremely controversial topic for RV'ers. You will find many differing opinions and many people who believe that they have the absolute best battery going. I believe that you should get a well rated battery that is readily available wherever you are going to travel. My choice battery is an AGM which I believes provides a reasonable balance between cost, charging speed and longevity. I have used grp 31 AGMs from from Sam's Club for 8 years. They are branded "Duracell" but are made by East Penn - one of the largest battery makers in the US producing batteries under many banners. A first class manufacturer in my opinion.
I installed my first set of these in 2013 and replaced them last fall. My coach is stored outdoors and I have 400 watts of solar that keeps them topped up and in first class condition. The batteries are about $180. each so are reasonably priced in my opinion. Do your homework in terms of the brand you select and if you are paying more than the Sam's Club price, insure you will realize additional value to justify the increment. My own opinion is that you will not but I am very pragmatic. Good luck,
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:21 PM   #27
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You have a couple options.

1. Just use the hell out of the batteries you have and don’t worry about how far you draw them down. If you burn them up in six months who cares. You’re going to replace them anyway. Use the time to figure out their replacements and save up.
2. Buy two good AGM. Never heard of Full River. You might also consider VMax Tanks. Those would be about $500 for two. AGM charge faster than lead acid. You can just drop them in.

3. Go to lithium. You’ll need either a BIM or DC-DC charger. I went with the BIM because I already had a good solar controller and it was easier to install the BIM. Lithium charges even faster than AGM. You can start with one then add a second later on. This would be about $1100 plus another $950 for battery 2.

If you’re dry camping a lot I’d go with the lithium and not mess around. I know this has all been mostly said. I just wanted to condense it all.
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Old 04-08-2020, 06:29 PM   #28
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The diesel is too noisy. If I run it it will disturb the neighbors, and all Ford says in their docs is that the diesel should not be idled "excessively" although there is no definition of what excessive means.

I guess I have come to the conclusion that I either need to get 2 Lithium batteries or 2 AGMs. The idea that I could get by on a single Lithium until I felt I could afford a second one just does not seem reasonable given how low the voltage is with our current 2 AGMs in the morning.

Moreover there does seem to be some discrepancy as to what 50% of battery power is, at least that is what I feel after speaking with a Lifeline battery rep yesterday, although perhaps that is meat for a different thread.

Thanks for your help.
Here's a link to the Fullriver Group 31 AGM batteries that we use in our Class C RV:
https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc115-12/

You can see what the dimensions are on this page. Click on the three little bars in the upper right corner to get help in locatiing a dealer. Click on the spec sheet and notice that these batteries have a float voltage of 13.6 volts, which is a perfect match for a typical single stage RV converter/charger. Note that the multi-stage converter/chargers that come in many RVs may float an RV battery at only around 13.2 volts - which would be too low for this Fullriver battery.

Here's another link explaining what makes up a premium AGM battery versus a mass market AGM battery:
https://resources.fullriverbattery.c...lriver-agm.pdf
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Old 04-08-2020, 06:36 PM   #29
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AJ Mike- not sure if all your questions were answered, but here is what I have done in my 18ND: took out L-A batteries, replaced with 2 Battle Born batteries (needed some grinding in the battery compartment bottom tray to fit them), added the charge pendant to the PD 9245 converter (as noted above). No other mods needed. I use the pendant to “boost” the batteries a couple times a month to “balance” the batteries. All is well. Understand your Fuse May not fit two BB batteries as they are wider and taller (but weigh 10 lbs less each ) than the L-A batteries. Good news is they don’t require maintenance or venting so one could re-purpose another nearby space to fit 2 BBs....or go with another Li battery shape / different manufacturer. If it is a good manufacturer the batteries have internal monitors so they are safe. Hope that helps.
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:58 PM   #30
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In my Winnebago Sightseer manuals coach battery and house battery are used interchangeably. The chassis battery is the starting battery
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:16 PM   #31
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My $.02. Simply put, you don't have just a battery capacity issue, you have a charge capacity issue too. You could put in 500 ah of battery, but how will you charge them? Both of your issues can be alleviated by changing to lithium batteries. You can use more of their total capacity (80% vs 50%) and charge them 5 times faster and more efficiently than lead acid batteries. You may also be a little short on solar power, depending on your daily load requirement.

Your system needs to be engineered around your daily electrical needs, where batteries must be able to easily supply it and your charging system must be able to return your batteries to full or near full power each day. Note: not fully charging lead acid batteries is detrimental to their health, not so with lithium. Occasionally, you can supplement your charging with driving the RV, running the generator or plugging back in to shore power. So use try to use less power or add more solar or do a little of both. If you are serious about boondocking, you need to be seriously considering quality, name brand, well engineered lithium batteries.
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:00 AM   #32
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My choice battery is an AGM which I believes provides a reasonable balance between cost, charging speed and longevity. I have used grp 31 AGMs from from Sam's Club for 8 years. They are branded "Duracell" but are made by East Penn - one of the largest battery makers in the US producing batteries under many banners. A first class manufacturer in my opinion.
The best I can tell from the Sam's Club website is that the AGM batteries you are talking about are rated at 62AH. Since the AGMs I currently have are rated at 65AH and they are not enough I don't think they are going to help me. As far as I can tell I need to either get higher rated AGMs or Lithium to solve my resource problem. I then have to think about charging them.
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:03 AM   #33
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3. Go to lithium. You’ll need either a BIM or DC-DC charger. I went with the BIM because I already had a good solar controller and it was easier to install the BIM. Lithium charges even faster than AGM. You can start with one then add a second later on. This would be about $1100 plus another $950 for battery 2.
I have found out about a DC-to-DC charger, but what is a BIM? A battery isolator? And what is the difference between the DC-DC charger and the BIM (whatever that is)?
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:10 AM   #34
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AJ Mike- not sure if all your questions were answered, but here is what I have done in my 18ND: took out L-A batteries, replaced with 2 Battle Born batteries (needed some grinding in the battery compartment bottom tray to fit them), added the charge pendant to the PD 9245 converter (as noted above). No other mods needed. I use the pendant to “boost” the batteries a couple times a month to “balance” the batteries. All is well. Understand your Fuse May not fit two BB batteries as they are wider and taller (but weigh 10 lbs less each ) than the L-A batteries. Good news is they don’t require maintenance or venting so one could re-purpose another nearby space to fit 2 BBs....or go with another Li battery shape / different manufacturer. If it is a good manufacturer the batteries have internal monitors so they are safe. Hope that helps.
I have looked at BB, Dakota and Relion. As far as I can find out the first 2 are made in the US and the last somewhere in Asia, perhaps China.

As far as I can tell I could fit 2 type 31 batteries in the battery compartment in our Fuse although I would probably need something to keep them in place as they would hang over a bit on the sides. I don't really think I need 2 100AH batteries and was thinking about 2 75AH or 2 80AH hour batteries since that would probably give me more power than I need and would save me some money but neither BB nor Dakota make batteries that size. Of the 3 that I checked only Relion makes intermediate size Lithium batteries.

I suppose I should also look for other manufacturers but I would prefer to buy US built batteries and employ someone here in the US if I can do that.
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:18 AM   #35
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My $.02. Simply put, you don't have just a battery capacity issue, you have a charge capacity issue too. You could put in 500 ah of battery, but how will you charge them? Both of your issues can be alleviated by changing to lithium batteries. You can use more of their total capacity (80% vs 50%) and charge them 5 times faster and more efficiently than lead acid batteries. You may also be a little short on solar power, depending on your daily load requirement.

Your system needs to be engineered around your daily electrical needs, where batteries must be able to easily supply it and your charging system must be able to return your batteries to full or near full power each day. Note: not fully charging lead acid batteries is detrimental to their health, not so with lithium. Occasionally, you can supplement your charging with driving the RV, running the generator or plugging back in to shore power. So use try to use less power or add more solar or do a little of both. If you are serious about boondocking, you need to be seriously considering quality, name brand, well engineered lithium batteries.
I agree with you concerning the need for more power to supply a larger battery pack. We currently have 300 watts of solar and that is enough to charge our 2 65AH batteries to full in the summer Arizona sun but not in the Winter and not if it is cloudy.

As part of my battery search I have also been asking about adding solar panels. I thought I might replace 2 of the flexible panels with 2 higher capacity rigid panels giving me 450 watts of solar and perhaps that might be enough.

The one saving grace is that we don't usually dry camp or boondock for longer than 2 days at any one place and thus I generally get to charge the batteries driving. In most places I can also run the generator but there is one campground that we go to regularly where there is little to no sunlight that reaches the RV due to the heavy foliage and where I am not allowed to use the generator, and that is what has been driving me to consider much higher capacity batteries.

I am having a battery monitor installed next week and then I should have a better idea about what the state of our batteries are after dry camping. Perhaps that will help me figure this out. Thank you for your help.
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Old 04-09-2020, 10:18 AM   #36
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A BIM is the Battery Isolation Manager that Battleborn sells, you mentioned it earlier. It connects the alternator for a while and then turns if off for a while to protect the alternator. With the DC to DC charger your alternator just powers that charger and the charger takes care of your LiPo batteries while protecting your alternator.

Sounds like you're learning a lot and on the right track. Some dry camping experience with the BMK (Battery Monitor Kit) will teach you a lot.

I think it's best to do only one modification at a time - then learn from that experience before deciding on the next modification in the chain. Well, I say that but I don't always do it.
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:00 AM   #37
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You are looking at the wrong battery. The ones I an referring to are Grp 31Duracell AGM Deep Cycle batteries and they are rated at 105ah at the 20 hour rate - the quasi standard for comparison. They are $179. Sam's have many automotive batteries so you must not have been looking at Deep Cycle.
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:04 PM   #38
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You are looking at the wrong battery. The ones I an referring to are Grp 31Duracell AGM Deep Cycle batteries and they are rated at 105ah at the 20 hour rate - the quasi standard for comparison. They are $179. Sam's have many automotive batteries so you must not have been looking at Deep Cycle.
Yes. I assume I was looking at the wrong batteries. I am not (yet) a member of Sam's Club since there is not one near where I live, but have been going to Costco.

I will take another look at the Sam's Club website. Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding.
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:08 PM   #39
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A BIM is the Battery Isolation Manager that Battleborn sells, you mentioned it earlier. It connects the alternator for a while and then turns if off for a while to protect the alternator. With the DC to DC charger your alternator just powers that charger and the charger takes care of your LiPo batteries while protecting your alternator.

Sounds like you're learning a lot and on the right track. Some dry camping experience with the BMK (Battery Monitor Kit) will teach you a lot.

I think it's best to do only one modification at a time - then learn from that experience before deciding on the next modification in the chain. Well, I say that but I don't always do it.
It is all coming very quickly and sometimes I make an assumption that is incorrect. I thought that what the BB sales guy pointed me to was the same as the DC-to-DC charger but I see that there are 2 different devices. I will contact them again to see what the BIM costs as compared to the DC-to-DC charger. So much to learn ...

I am having a battery monitor installed next week and do not plan to do anything about new batteries until I see what it tells me. One thing I have learned this last week from this and other threads is that there is no hard and fast relationship between voltage and battery power so perhaps there is more battery remaining in my 2 AGMs than I think when they are at 11.9 or 12.1 volts.
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:33 PM   #40
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You are looking at the wrong battery. The ones I an referring to are Grp 31Duracell AGM Deep Cycle batteries and they are rated at 105ah at the 20 hour rate - the quasi standard for comparison. They are $179. Sam's have many automotive batteries so you must not have been looking at Deep Cycle.
Bobmac, those are "Marine RV Starting/Deep Cycle" batteries. Not true deep cycle. That's why they are so much cheaper than true deep cycle batteries.

I know many use them and feel they are adequate. But that's exactly what AJMike did initially - Marine/ RV AGMs - and he's unhappy with their performance.

I'd always recommend true deep cycle batteries for a RV house battery bank.

If I had a small power boat with a motor and maybe a trolling motor that would be a fine battery. But regardless of it's 20-min rating it's not built the same as a true deep cycle battery.

They are going to cost more, between $285 and $325 but they are built for one purpose. Not to crank a motor for a short burst of power.
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