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Old 10-12-2020, 09:05 AM   #21
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I pretty sure the problem was not with the shore power, as this has happened when I plug in at home, too. Also we used both the 30 and 50A connection as well as the generator and all 3 produce the same results.

Could bad house batteries be part of my issues?
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:39 AM   #22
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I have seen few issues on clients rigs they may be yours.
1. the shore cable being damaged and produces high resistance and fails after a few minutes.
2. the 50A plug itself same issue.
3. the inverter has failed. (FYI you would not have a "Converter", as one of the respondents suggested, you have an Inverter providing the battery charger function and as in your pictures you have DC circuit breakers). The fact that your batteries are going dead on shore power does indicate that the Inverter is NOT charging them. So the AC voltage would have to be verified at the Inverter, your Xantrex display should show you that

Not sure how they wired the AC circuits, From your write up, it sounds as if you have an (ATS) Automatic Transfer Switch, since you stated you started the gen and received feedback that you were on generator power. The Shore cord would run into the ATS which is failure point #4 (the contacts have become corroded). THe Generator cord runs to here also. From there AC power would run to your Main Distribution panel (AC Breaker Box) where failure point #5 could be, the Main Breaker (try flipping on and off a few times, again bad contacts)

NOW, I guess you are reading you power state from the Intellitec Powerline EMS which is #6 in my list of probable failures. The EMS Control Module is installed inside the main distribution panel and does fail for it too has relays that can develop bad contacts. If they have wired the power feed through this and then on to the Inverter breaker, it is most likely your issue. Attaching the connection diagram
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:05 PM   #23
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The OP picture shows a Freedom 15 Inverter/Charger Combo (made by Heart I think) that has, like all RV inverter/charger combos, an internal Automatic Transfer Switch.

Note: This is not the same ATS the if fed by the 50A shore power or 50A generator that supplies L1 & L2 to your main panel. The internal inverter/charger ATS is a pass through to the 30A Power Sub-Panel that turns off the inverter side when shore power is present, and when it's not, the inverter cuts-in and outputs 120V to the Subpanel.

So fundamentally, I think if the charger portion of your inverter/charger fails, the question becomes: What options are there now?

Well, I think most people will spend the money and A) Replace the MSW Inverter/Charger with another MSW; or B) they might more money an upgrade to a PSW Inverter/Charger.

However, there is another option: C) You might do what I did, even though my Dimensions Inverter/Charger was working fine. I.e., the inverter was good and the charger output was good. ...What I did was this: I purchased a separate 17A Victron Charger and added it to my current power grid as a supplemental charger; and I routed the power wires under my dresser and out to the battery bank about 6 feet away. Then I plugged the the Victron into my bedroom AC wall socket, which I use when I'm camping with shore power.

The Victron charger also has a bluetooth connection to my cell phone so the Victron App can display me basic power usage numbers that are somewhat helpful.

And because the Victron has a more advanced charging algorithm vs. my Dimension 3-stage Charger, I now use this Victron charger as my main charger when I have shore power.

Of course, if I ever need to fully charge my house batteries (430A-Hr) it may take 3-4 days to fully to accomplish this, but this is never the case, because I always arrive at my camp spot with a 100% SOC "full" bank of house batteries... thanks to the KeyLine VSR ($85) device I installed as a battery combiner between my engine and house battery (positive posts) so my alternator can charge my house batteries while I drive!!! So if your house batteries are being charges when you are driving, just add a KeyLine VSR or Blue Sea Battery Combiner.

The other benefit of using this Victron as supplemental charger is that I can use it as as battery maintainer when I put my RV is in storage, and I have a 120V-15A source.

Note: Whenever I have the Victron plugged in, I just turn off my Dimensions Charger at my EMS panel to disable it. ...And if I ever need an overnight "rapid" charge, then I can use the 100A Dimensions Charger.

Note: The inverter side is automatically turned off whenever their is shore power by the inverter internal ATS.

My point is this: If I lost my Dimensions charger function, or as I have explained, even when your charger is still working fine... you might consider adding a $140 for the 17A Victron (on Amazon) as described above or you might buy the 25A model for $185 if you want a faster charge, and your charger is broke. I would do this as an alternative to spending $1,000-$2,500 on a newer inverter solution, but if you have to have a PSW inverter, then by all means, spend the money! Clean power is always better than square-wave power.

My Dimensions Inverter is a Quasi-sine inverter and my residential refrigarator and CPAP machine and LCD TV works just fine, so I don't need a PSW inverter even though I would upgrade to a PSW if I ever lost the Dimensions Inverter side, but I see no reason to replace your inverter (MSW or Q-MSW) when you just add a supplemental Victron charger and get the bonus bluetooth monitoring function included for $140.

AS FOR REPAIRING THE EMS Circuit Board: My 2004 Itasca Horizon uses an Intelletec 620 Circuit Board; and other other owners report you can sometimes repair these things by replacing all of the 8 resistors as shown in the pictures below. (Sorry I can't give you more information on the resistor values, because I have never done this repair myself, but apparently this is a common repair technique. So if your Intelletec board is bad, maybe you can save some money and fix it yourself?)

Can anyone be more specific and let us know how to repair the Intelletec 620 Circuit Board?

Here is some interesting facts about inverter types:

https://theinverterstore.com/faq-ite...ave-inverters/
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Old 10-14-2020, 10:57 AM   #24
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This on is interesting, wish I had the rig here

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgout View Post
I pretty sure the problem was not with the shore power, as this has happened when I plug in at home, too. Also we used both the 30 and 50A connection as well as the generator and all 3 produce the same results.

Could bad house batteries be part of my issues?
Yes, I would assume from you going all the way to 9V, replacing them is a good idea.
You really got me thinking on this one. Went to Winny and got your wiring diagram, went to Xantrax and got the inverter manual. The winny wiring shows the inverter and shows an Inverter Cord. It shows it plugged into "Recp-Right FRT". Your picture shows a receptacle right front with nothing plugged in. It shouldn't be, but is that the AC in?

You are going to have to verify the Freedom15 is getting 110VAC In.

In closely reading your first post, it now seems obvious that your Inverter/charger in not charging the batteries. This answers the question of why things came back when you started the engine, you had the engine alternator providing 12v again. without 12V all the controls for the things that turned off, the A/C's thermostat, the Frig control and the lights, would not operate even if they had 110VAC.
With the engine running and plugged into shore, you should get all the displays up, namely the Xantrex display, the charge should be lit, Incoming AC In should be lit, but if the red fault is on you know you have a issue.

You stated that you had no 110VAC at the all the outlets, so maybe yes to "after starting my coach and "resetting" all the electricity, the 110 outlets would work for awhile and then stop after awhile. Can those be 110 through the inverter?" I will assume this was after you shut the engine off. So again as the 12V degraded, everything stopped working. The receptacle and anything else that can be run by the inverter are shown on the wiring diagram routed through an "Inverter Subpanel" that one 30A main and 4 15A breakers in it. The inverter manual says this should not matter " Apply shore power to the unit. The unit should transfer shore power and power any load connected even with the switch in the OFF position." the pass through AC output should stop working, but maybe so. And again the Inverter has failed.

The last thing the wiring diagram shows is that the rest of the breakers in the main distribution panel (the last 3 to the right) either run to a (20A) washer/dryer outlet or to the EMS (load shedder), 15A to the Frig and 20A to the water heater. Now I would take the EMS out of picture for the relays are Normally closed, so those outlets SHOULD work even with no 12VDC.
I am going to test the theory with a rig I have here but it is not the same inverter, if it has no 12V does the 110VAC pass through.
For now you could just bypass the inverter all together, for its charger is obviously not working
Wiring diagram: http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/...ire_139181.pdf
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:51 AM   #25
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Still working on this. I got an answer from Xantrax and your old inverter does work backwards for some reason. As stated by the other responder, there is a large "Bypass Relay" in the inverter. It is normally closed, Inverter Mode. When Shore Power or Generator power is applied this power relay is pulled in, with the control power for the relay coming from 12V and through a 1/2A fuse inside the Inverter. If this fuse is bad the inverter will supply ac in the invert mode but will not when shore /gen is on, this does not seem to be the case for you since you get 110VAC power with the engine running. So the Bypass Relay could be bad and will not stay pulled in (charger section should be running then) or even when its pulled in the charger section still is dead.
You will have to check all this with the engine running or another house battery in place.
SO, conclusion is the charger section
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Old 10-14-2020, 07:44 PM   #26
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You people are awesome for your time and effort toward this. Thank you so much. I have lots to learn and electricity is one of my main weaknesses. But I know people who know electricity and are great helpers, so you have provided great information. Thanks again so much for your input.
Doug
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:14 PM   #27
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dawgout: Appreciation is always welcome. ...But we also hope you will post your conclusions after you fix your problem. ...No rush. ...Just don't forget!

MORE ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS


It sounds like when you were plugged into shore power... 1) The charger portion of your inverter/charger was not working; and/or 2) Your L1 power to the inverter is none existent and that's why your charger was not working.

==> This could be as simple as the 30A breaker to the inverter has been tripped or is bad (inside your power panel) or you have an ATS problem that is not passing 120V on the L1 line supplied to the power panel... which is then connected to the inverter/charger. (TBD)

==> If your coach ATS failed, you can verify this easy enough by verifying you see 120V voltage out of the switch or you can measure voltage at your Main and Sub Power Panel on the L1 and L2 circuit.

==> You can verify the charger function is working by plugging into shore power (50A or 30A or 15A)... and you check the voltage to your house batteries is over 13.0V? ...Also, you can looking at your EMS panel inside the RV to verify the charge amperage to your house batteries.

So please let us know when you check these items and then maybe you can tell us what the solution is/was to fix your power problem?

Note: It is not a ground fault switch, because you report your batteries fell below 10V.

AND FYI, your lights inside the coach work off 12V direct from the battery when you are on shore power. I.e., your charger (inside the Freedom inverter) has to be working in order to replenish your batteries or you will see the problems you describe.
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Old 10-17-2020, 08:55 PM   #28
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Sorry for the bother, but I am new to this and I don't know what an "ATS" is.
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Old 10-17-2020, 09:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgout View Post
Sorry for the bother, but I am new to this and I don't know what an "ATS" is.
ATS = Automatic Transfer Switch

Depending on your RV you could have two of them. One built into the Inverter and the other mounted in your power compartment.

In an inverter it switches between inverted 110v and shore power or generator power.

In an RV it switches between shore power or generator power.

Without an ATS you have to move plugs between say your generator and your shore power. Or you have to be sure the inverter is off before plugging in to shore power or starting the generator.

The ATS takes care of the switching for you AUTOMATICALLY - hence the name: Automatic Transfer Switch.
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:54 AM   #30
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So far I am still baffled, but I have an electrician friend reading this thread and beginning to test the various items mentioned. He says he wants to study some more on the ATS and EMS systems. So far the breakers all check out.
On the display boards inside the coach, the displays seem to indicate the correct input, such as 20/30/50 amp or generator, but still no AC to outlets or microwave or Fridge beyond a few minutes.
Batteries not charging when plugged in or on generator, but the solar seems to work on them as does when the engine is running.
If my friend can't find the solution, I do have an appointment at a service center on Nov. 6. I will gladly post results when I know more.
Once again, thanks much for your help to this point.
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Batteries not charging when plugged in or on generator, but the solar seems to work on them as does when the engine is running.

This is clue one. When there is DC voltage coming from either solar or the engine alternator, the 12 VDC stuff like lights, frig and heater controls work but when those stop adding 12VDC, the batteries do not. Doesn't that say the batteries will not take and hold a charge for long?
Step one is to sort the problem and know that the batteries are the most critical point. your situation certainly sounds like batteries which do not hold a charge for very long.
Check actual battery condition with a load test and forget all the baffling BS! It is always possible to have two different failures but there is no point in checking until you know the first step is correct.
What you describe fits bad batteries totally as they are what power the mechanical "brains" to operate everything else.
Keep in mind that a battery voltage test is not much help as it tends to confuse us so easily.
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:22 AM   #32
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Maybe this will help figure out how your 50A power grid works:

In a 50A (L1 & L2 ) system, the ATS will automatically pass either shore power or generator power to your Main Panel; and it will give priority to your generator.

For example, if you are plugged into shore power and you start your generator, then the 50A (L1 and L2) out of your generator will take priority over shore power... meaning your ATS will cutoff the L1 & L2 from your shore power.

Once the Main Panel receives the 50A-L1 line it will send this 120V to the inverter where it will encounter yet another transfer switch that acts as "Pass Through" to the 30A Sub-panel.

==> We refer to this as 30A power, because the circuit breaker is rated at 30A. However, the line-in can handle 50A.

==> If you on have 30A shore power then your 30A plug jumpers L1 to L2 and your EMS system by Intelletec can sense this.

==> However, when you connect to 20A or 15A shore power (standard wall socket) then you need to manually tell your EMS you are operating on 20A services so the EMS can "shed" (drop) power sources according to a priority set up by your coach manufacture, which can change if you like.

Note: As long as the Inverter transfer switch senses 120V from either shore power or the generator the inverter will remain off. However, you you pull the shore power and don't have the generator running, then the inverter will produce 120V output to the 30A Subpanel.

The inverter also has a separate charger function, and the same power wires that supply the inverter with power from the house batteries are the same wires the charger side of the inverter uses to re-charge the house batteries. Therefore, current can flow in either direction, but not at the same time.

If you do not have any power to your wall sockets, then first think you need to check is for 120V at your 30A sub-panel and then your Main Panel and at your Inverter output and then at your ATS. ...Or you check in the reverse order. The goal is to find out where you have a "break" in your power line and that will tell you what to do next.
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Old 10-23-2020, 10:19 AM   #33
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Have you not checked the Inverter yet?

As I stated before, I was told by Xantrex that your inverter requires 12V to engage the bypass relay (why you only have 110VAC for a short time or when an alternate source of 12VDC power is provided) and with batteries obviously not seeing 12-14V from the Inverter/Charger with 110VAC input, the charger section of the Inverter has failed and must be replaced.
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Old 10-29-2020, 08:27 AM   #34
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Have you checked your batteries water? After running them down to a low level and charging them back up, you might of killed them. Might want to load test them/replace them after you fix this electicial problem.
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Old 10-29-2020, 10:14 AM   #35
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Batteries are the obvious problem but they are so, so simple that we often ignore the obvious.
Have the batteries been tested?
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Old 03-29-2021, 06:16 PM   #36
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My 3 ring circus turned out to be a faulty inverter. New inverter and now it works. Thanks for all the suggestions.
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