Electric Challenges

JudyandJim · 08-02-2006, 07:57 AM

We have our Sunflyer in the San Diego area this summer, and I spend about half my time there, and Jim flys over for weekends. The following problem occurred while I was alone. I have detailed the chain of events to give you an idea of how the problem escalated.

Day 1:
I had a small fan running overnight. It was plugged into the bedroom desk outlet, which is on the bathroom GFCI circuit. In the morning, the fan was off and the bathroom GFCI kept resetting, even when nothing was plugged in any of the outlets on its circuit. I reset the breaker on Recep 2 and the problem was resolved.

Later, I was running the washer/dryer, and had the bedroom tv on, which is directly over the washer/dryer. After about 30 minutes an odor like melting plastic

was evident in the bedroom area, and seemed to be coming from the washer area. I had put a plastic cutting board on a stove burner once, and that is the same type of odor. I checked the breakers and all were fine, but reset the sub-main switch just to be sure.

A few hours later, I ran the microwave... it worked for 5 seconds, then tripped it's breaker switch and the same melting plastic odor filled the kitchen and bedroom areas.

A short while later, the satellite dish retracted and needed to be reset. This has happened before, and I have had to reset the satellite controls by resetting the breaker on Recep 2. I reset the breaker and the satellite was again working. I noticed that the GFCI did not require resetting, although it was on the same breaker.

At that point, I started doing a bit more troubleshooting, and decided to see if the microwave worked when plugged into an outlet on a different circuit breaker. With the help of an extension cord, I determined that it worked fine, with no odor, so the problem is not the microwave, but the wiring or breaker.

Rather than try to sleep with the power doing unusual things, I turned off the outside breaker at the power stump before going to bed to prevent any fire danger from a shorted wire.

Day 2:
I turned the power back on at the stump, then tested each of the breakers on the Sub-Main panel. Everything worked fine, except the microwave which still trips the breaker, and creates a very slight burning plastic odor near the breaker panel in the rear closet.

I turned the Microwave breaker OFF and left it that way.

San Diego was extremely warm and humid, so I had been running the air conditioning most of the time during the day. I noticed that the 2nd compressor was having difficulty starting. It would make a cyclic surging sound for a few minutes, then give up. This has been an intermittent problem which we have had the dealer address before. Once they rewired our SurgeGuard, and once they replaced the thermostat. This problem only occurred when we were hooked to shore power and never when running the generator.

I could not confirm that the 2nd compressor was not on, because the amp usage does not display with 50amps incoming. However, the noise level is distinctive and it was definitely not running, and the inside temp was not as it should have been. When it is 90 degrees with 86% humidity, you need both compressors.

I, again, turned all power off when I went to bed.

Day 3:
When I turned the power on, the EMS panel showed only 30amps incoming, instead of 50amps.

I reset at the stump several times with the same result. I also tried resetting with the Microwave breaker ON, and our hardwired SurgeGuard indicated a fault and would not allow power into the coach. This was a new condition. So I turned the Micro breaker OFF again, and reset. However, the EMS remained at 30amps.

Knowing that I couldn't run both compressors of the air conditioning on 30amps without shedding some things, I switched the fridge and water heater to LP. However, I could not get the 2nd compressor to come on. I have run it on 30amps before, so I know it is possible.

Then the EMS began showing only 2 or 3 amps, no matter what was running. Once in a while, it would jump up to 16 or 22, but most of the time it was not accurate.

I shut down the electric and started the generator to see if I got 50amps. I did. And both compressors on the AC ran well, and the amp usage displayed correctly on the EMS. Unfortunately, I could not run the gen in the rv park, so I switched back to shore power, and still had only 30 amps coming into the coach.
I did some playing with the EMS panel by turning the Charger on and off, to see how the amps changed and what was being shed. Interestingly, when it shed the water heater or fridge, the shed lights remained lit.

Day 4:
Since I wasn't having "fun" on vacation anymore, I shut everything down and drove my car back to Scottsdale.

A week later, Jim and I returned to San Diego, and the problem was the same, with the addition, that now the fridge would not run on AC on either shore power or generator, and would only run on LP. We removed the breaker panels and saw no evidence of damaged wiring.

Rather than deal with the logistics of having it repaired in San Diego, we packed up and returned home. On the trip home we had 50 amps from the gen, and everything worked fine while running the gen, except the fridge which still only runs on LP. We left San Diego late, so spent the night in an rv park, hooked to 50amps, but only getting 30amps incoming, so we know it wasn't our stump in San Diego that was the problem.
With only one compressor running it couldn't keep up with the 100+ outside, so we left the Sunflyer hooked up in the rv park, and we spent the night in a cool motel.

Our beloved Sunflyer is now in storage with no power and the main battery switch OFF. Something we have never done before, but we are reluctant to leave it unattended with the power on while experiencing these problems. I am going to schedule an appointment with our dealer.

In summary: We think it is either the Transfer Switch or EMS panel, or both, but are even more disturbed by the melting plastic odor that started this whole chain of events. Could be the wiring insulation was hot???? The Recep 2 breaker is definately involved, because the satellite is now stowing itself several times a day. And, of course, the Microwave breaker is a problem, and now we have no AC to the fridge.

Note: Our SurgeGuard is wired with the generator cord and the shore cord going into the transfer switch, then out to the SurgeGuard, then into the coach.

This was really bad timing for us... after enjoying three wonderful summers in our Sunflyer, we are planning to sell her this winter. This was to be our last summer with her, and we had a beautiful space right on the bay where we could watch the birds and enjoy the breezes. Now it has been cut short, while we have the repairs done. Such is life!

In the meantime, we always value the input from this forum, and find it helpful when talking with the service techs at the dealer. So, your comments are invited...

Thanks, Judy

JudyandJim · 08-02-2006, 07:57 AM

We have our Sunflyer in the San Diego area this summer, and I spend about half my time there, and Jim flys over for weekends. The following problem occurred while I was alone. I have detailed the chain of events to give you an idea of how the problem escalated.

Day 1:
I had a small fan running overnight. It was plugged into the bedroom desk outlet, which is on the bathroom GFCI circuit. In the morning, the fan was off and the bathroom GFCI kept resetting, even when nothing was plugged in any of the outlets on its circuit. I reset the breaker on Recep 2 and the problem was resolved.

Later, I was running the washer/dryer, and had the bedroom tv on, which is directly over the washer/dryer. After about 30 minutes an odor like melting plastic

was evident in the bedroom area, and seemed to be coming from the washer area. I had put a plastic cutting board on a stove burner once, and that is the same type of odor. I checked the breakers and all were fine, but reset the sub-main switch just to be sure.

A few hours later, I ran the microwave... it worked for 5 seconds, then tripped it's breaker switch and the same melting plastic odor filled the kitchen and bedroom areas.

A short while later, the satellite dish retracted and needed to be reset. This has happened before, and I have had to reset the satellite controls by resetting the breaker on Recep 2. I reset the breaker and the satellite was again working. I noticed that the GFCI did not require resetting, although it was on the same breaker.

At that point, I started doing a bit more troubleshooting, and decided to see if the microwave worked when plugged into an outlet on a different circuit breaker. With the help of an extension cord, I determined that it worked fine, with no odor, so the problem is not the microwave, but the wiring or breaker.

Rather than try to sleep with the power doing unusual things, I turned off the outside breaker at the power stump before going to bed to prevent any fire danger from a shorted wire.

Day 2:
I turned the power back on at the stump, then tested each of the breakers on the Sub-Main panel. Everything worked fine, except the microwave which still trips the breaker, and creates a very slight burning plastic odor near the breaker panel in the rear closet.

I turned the Microwave breaker OFF and left it that way.

San Diego was extremely warm and humid, so I had been running the air conditioning most of the time during the day. I noticed that the 2nd compressor was having difficulty starting. It would make a cyclic surging sound for a few minutes, then give up. This has been an intermittent problem which we have had the dealer address before. Once they rewired our SurgeGuard, and once they replaced the thermostat. This problem only occurred when we were hooked to shore power and never when running the generator.

I could not confirm that the 2nd compressor was not on, because the amp usage does not display with 50amps incoming. However, the noise level is distinctive and it was definitely not running, and the inside temp was not as it should have been. When it is 90 degrees with 86% humidity, you need both compressors.

I, again, turned all power off when I went to bed.

Day 3:
When I turned the power on, the EMS panel showed only 30amps incoming, instead of 50amps.

I reset at the stump several times with the same result. I also tried resetting with the Microwave breaker ON, and our hardwired SurgeGuard indicated a fault and would not allow power into the coach. This was a new condition. So I turned the Micro breaker OFF again, and reset. However, the EMS remained at 30amps.

Knowing that I couldn't run both compressors of the air conditioning on 30amps without shedding some things, I switched the fridge and water heater to LP. However, I could not get the 2nd compressor to come on. I have run it on 30amps before, so I know it is possible.

Then the EMS began showing only 2 or 3 amps, no matter what was running. Once in a while, it would jump up to 16 or 22, but most of the time it was not accurate.

I shut down the electric and started the generator to see if I got 50amps. I did. And both compressors on the AC ran well, and the amp usage displayed correctly on the EMS. Unfortunately, I could not run the gen in the rv park, so I switched back to shore power, and still had only 30 amps coming into the coach.
I did some playing with the EMS panel by turning the Charger on and off, to see how the amps changed and what was being shed. Interestingly, when it shed the water heater or fridge, the shed lights remained lit.

Day 4:
Since I wasn't having "fun" on vacation anymore, I shut everything down and drove my car back to Scottsdale.

A week later, Jim and I returned to San Diego, and the problem was the same, with the addition, that now the fridge would not run on AC on either shore power or generator, and would only run on LP. We removed the breaker panels and saw no evidence of damaged wiring.

Rather than deal with the logistics of having it repaired in San Diego, we packed up and returned home. On the trip home we had 50 amps from the gen, and everything worked fine while running the gen, except the fridge which still only runs on LP. We left San Diego late, so spent the night in an rv park, hooked to 50amps, but only getting 30amps incoming, so we know it wasn't our stump in San Diego that was the problem.
With only one compressor running it couldn't keep up with the 100+ outside, so we left the Sunflyer hooked up in the rv park, and we spent the night in a cool motel.

Our beloved Sunflyer is now in storage with no power and the main battery switch OFF. Something we have never done before, but we are reluctant to leave it unattended with the power on while experiencing these problems. I am going to schedule an appointment with our dealer.

In summary: We think it is either the Transfer Switch or EMS panel, or both, but are even more disturbed by the melting plastic odor that started this whole chain of events. Could be the wiring insulation was hot???? The Recep 2 breaker is definately involved, because the satellite is now stowing itself several times a day. And, of course, the Microwave breaker is a problem, and now we have no AC to the fridge.

Note: Our SurgeGuard is wired with the generator cord and the shore cord going into the transfer switch, then out to the SurgeGuard, then into the coach.

This was really bad timing for us... after enjoying three wonderful summers in our Sunflyer, we are planning to sell her this winter. This was to be our last summer with her, and we had a beautiful space right on the bay where we could watch the birds and enjoy the breezes. Now it has been cut short, while we have the repairs done. Such is life!

In the meantime, we always value the input from this forum, and find it helpful when talking with the service techs at the dealer. So, your comments are invited...

Thanks, Judy

John_Canfield · 08-02-2006, 08:14 AM

Nice write-up Judy. The transfer switch is a candidate for being the troublemaker and also the power power coming in from the park's pedestal. I would measure your voltage in the coach while you are drawing a good load. Make sure you have ~115v. If you have low voltage (the current increases) that might explain why you have things getting warm enough to melt.

Tom N · 08-02-2006, 08:14 AM

Possibly you problems are related to the brown out power problems currently happening in CA. Low line voltage and related problems.

Try running the generator and see if your problems disappear.

JudyandJim · 08-02-2006, 08:35 AM

Tom N...
As I noted in my post, everything is fine when I run the generator, it is only when connected to shore power and the problem duplicated itself when we hooked up in Yuma and in Phoenix.

I don't think it was a brown out. They hadn't started yet when we first encountered the problem, and per the news it was happening up the coast and not in the San Diego area, plus none of the other rvs near us were having problems. And I "think/hope" our SurgeGuard would have powered off if we had low voltage.

JudyandJim · 08-02-2006, 08:40 AM

John...

Good point about low power causing things to run hot.

If I had low power coming in from the pedestal, wouldn't my SurgeGuard have shut off the power to the coach? I thought that was one of the things it is supposed to protect us from.

John_Canfield · 08-02-2006, 03:27 PM

Judy - that's the sticky wicket in the analysis. Since you have the SurgeGuard between the coach and the transfer switch, it certainly should activitate at - 109V? - I forgot the cutout voltage. Anyway, in troubleshooting you never assume anything so even the SurgeGuard would be under suspicion.

I would also be sure that all of your AC wiring connections are tight - this literally means checking every wire capture screw in every breaker and also the white neutral wires. You need to check the AC wiring whever you find it - Surgeguard, transfer switch, netrual bus, etc, etc.

Take a screwdriver and tighten every wire connection you can find.

(You are awarded extra points if you can do this while the coach is plugged in, however I'd forget the points and be sure the power is OFF

)

Bob Hatch · 08-02-2006, 08:02 PM

SurgeGuard low/high voltage points are 102 volts and 132 volts.

JudyandJim · 08-03-2006, 08:17 AM

John and Bob...

Thanks so much for your input. We aren't planning to try to fix it ourselves, but every bit of info we have is helpful when trying to get the dealer's techs to troubleshoot.

JudyandJim · 08-28-2006, 12:14 PM

UPDATE ON OUR CHALLENGES after visit to dealer:

PROBLEM: Microwave breaker kept tripping and burnt plastic smell -- there was a badly melted junction box under the kitchen sink which controls the microwave. So that was the source of the melting plastic smell.

PROBLEM: EMS only showed 30amp incoming and 3 or 4amps load -- because I had become paranoid about the burned circuit smell, I had turned off a breaker that I "thought" we didn't use. It was the dishwasher breaker and we do not have a dishwasher. Tech said it controlled power to the EMS panel, which caused the errors in amp readings. However, after reading some other recent posts, it seems that having ANY breaker off, can cause the EMS to display incorrectly.

So, it was a pretty simple fix, and our extended service plan covered it.

The AC and everything else now works fine. Amazing how one thing can trigger so many other errors.

John_Canfield · 08-28-2006, 03:25 PM

Hey Judy & Jim - Glad it turned out to be some simple things! Never would I have guessed that turning off a breaker would cause the EMS to go bonkers. I'm going to pull out my wiring diagrams and see how that EMS is wired on my coach.

Thudman · 08-30-2006, 07:50 AM

Judy/Jim et al:
Thanks for your detailed explanations and solutions to your problems. Trust me, you'll save some folks a lot of grief. Ya done good!

Thudman

KennethM · 08-30-2006, 08:30 AM

Outsanding follow through on a problem anyone could easily experience by simply turning off a breaker. The same thing happened to me a little different problem, shut off water heater breaker to reset high limit on back of Attwood and the EMS panel display went blank. Reset high limit, turned on water heater breaker and went back to EMS all was normal. Never did follow up at home and go through trouble shooting to see how this could interact but now I know where to start looking like John the answer is in the electrical prints.

skigramp · 08-30-2006, 05:47 PM

Did the dealer give you any clues about what caused the junction box under the sink to melt?

JudyandJim · 09-01-2006, 02:33 PM

No. As usual, we don't get good answers about much of anything from our dealer. They said that my turning off the breaker may have caused the line to the junction box to run hot. Which is ridiculous

because I didn't turn off the dishwasher breaker until after the microwave breaker began to trip and burn. And I rarely use the microwave, and hadn't used it for several days before the junction box melted.

So, why is still a mystery to us.