Dagnabbit! All Dead Batteries Again!!

[DesertRatt]

2005 MinnieWinnie - Ford V10


Ok, I parked it in storage day after Christmas. Came today to fire the gennie and warm it all up, and ALL batteries dead as doorknobs! Truck battery is brand new in November - DEAD! Won't even light the dashboard controls.



Coach Batteries new in September - so dead the step wouldn't come out.



Now, when I left it, I DID turn the "kill switch" inside the door to shut the coach batteries. I can't find anything of any sort that was left "ON". TVs unplugged. Nothing on.



How are these connected? Any ideas what could cause this in just 6 weeks. Not cold here - I live in SoCal.


THANKS

[Morich]

This is one of the more frequent problems we hear about here on the forum as it is so easy to hang folks up.

Two big points when first getting used to the RV are that the converter will not charge the start battery even when plugged into power as the two strings are not connected if we don't check and or add equipment to get that charge to the start part.

There are loads on both batteries which are not disconnected by the battery disconnect/ cutoff switch and those loads are of the sort which we may not even think of at first, so they snag us.

I don't see exactly which model for length and there may be some small points on the wiring but this is the drawing for one size of the Minnie Winnie and it shows what's happened.

Looking at the orange trail we can see it feeds from the coach batteries to the left side of the disconnect relay and if the relay is closed goes on up to feed breakers for most of the coach items, so we can cut that off with the disconnect.

But at the same time there is the green path which doesn't go through the relay! And that dog leads to one small breaker which feeds things that they consider safety equipment like the propane and CO2 detectors and are left on if we don't open that breaker!!

The mode solenoid is what connects coach and start together so we can use it to boost to get started or when we drive it closes to get some charge from the start to the coach battery.
But it also has a blue path that leads around any disconnect and to breakers that drain power!!

If we look at this chart, we can look up what each circuit feeds:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf

KA and ER are for the electric step and they don't want you stepping out without it so they keep it powered! CCY on this model is the slide. GJ on the green path is the Propane detector

Sorry, but it is a very common item to miss. Also the start battery will have things on the vehicle like the radio presets and maybe some ignition "gizmos" which stay hot and they are enough to run the batteries down over time.
click the picture to get a better view.

[DesertRatt]

Richard,
Thanks a ton for the great explanation. What’s the source of that diagram? Is like to get a big paper version or high def version where I can read the fine print.

I guess the only answer for storing is to physically disconnect the battery cables?

[Wayne M]

I had a 2008 Destination 39w. I was plugged in at my storage facility and the service batteries would drop to 11.2v after a week or two. I called WBago and was told to turn the step off, that leaving the steps in the on position provides a constant current voltage to maintain step position and it demands more than the converter trickle charger can provide. I left the steps turned off and never had another problem.

On my present 2015 Tour 42Qd I leave it plugged in, step off, and have never had a battery problem.

I also asked about the Trik-L-Charge and it is hooked to charge the house batteries but WBago said that once the house batteries are fully charged it will flow over to the service batteries. Again that was a 2008 Wbgo Destination (Diesel pusher). Best to call Wbago and find out exactly what you have for a charging system and ask about the steps.

[l1v3fr33ord1]

DesertRatt-

A healthy battery, fully-charged, will maintain a sufficient charge level for several months if fully disconnected. The best way to fully-disconnect is to remove the negative battery cable from the post.

I regularly do this for both the chassis and house batteries when storing the coach for the Winter.

Notes:

1) This is common practice for longer-term storage where 120V power is not available or desired to run the on-board 120VAC-to-12VDC converter, which charges the house batteries. Also, see note 4).
2) Many disconnect switches do not remove all the battery loads.
3) If your coach has been fitted with a Magnum inverter/charger (12VDC-to-120VAC) consult the Magnum manual for the sequence of disconnecting cables from the house batteries.
4) From the wiring diagrams for your coach, it appears as if it came from the factory without a component to charge the chassis batteries from the converter, the house battery charging source. Many folks find it convenient to install a component to do that. Popular solutions are the Trik-L-Start or Amp-L-Start. Keep in mind that one or the other will not fix the problem of dead batteries when there is no charging source available. Only disconnecting can fix that problem.
5) Solar panels w/ a controller, a Trik-L-Start or Amp-L-Start, and adequate sunlight can keep the battery banks charged in the absence of 120VAC. Our coaches have not had solar. Nor, is it a solution for under-cover or inside storage, or for areas subject to snow cover or a lot of cloudy days.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by DesertRatt

Richard,
Thanks a ton for the great explanation. What’s the source of that diagram? Is like to get a big paper version or high def version where I can read the fine print.

I guess the only answer for storing is to physically disconnect the battery cables?

Good info is often a hit and miss deal but Winnebago does a lot that we need on that point. It varies with year and type but this is a great place to start a search for info:
https://www.winnebago.com/owners/own...s-and-diagrams

From there, if interesting in the wiring, click the wiring info line and go here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ram/Wiring.htm

That's the point where I was lacking the info on exact model but started looking for "general" Minnie Winnie wiring but you can sort it down to YOUR specific model and length!

But then it can get a bit tricky for the novice as it does need to be sorted for which system you might want. I think of the RV as having three different electrical systems which also have connections between the three at different times and for different reasons. Like the mode solenoid which connects in different "modes" and for different reasons. Sometimes we thing it will be on the 12 volt drawing when it is some part like the converter which uses 110 AC to make 12VDC, so it takes a while to sort through, so I tend to not send folks directly there.

I think of the electrical divided like this:
Chassis 12 VDC-- We often don't get too much as they consider that the "builders parts".
Coach 12VDC is the stuff that Winnebago adds to convert the chassis to a full RV
Coach 110VAC the stuff that Winn adds to provide the AC but some things are across that divide of AC and DC and it takes a bit to sort which we might find where.

For some that borders close to telling them to go to hell, when they look at a drawing that they have never seen before!!

It's a fine line between looking like I don't want to share the info source and looking like I'm blowing them off with info that makes no sense?
But I have time and enjoy the chase of looking through all the different little spots for info that is often hidden so it gets like of like an Easter egg hunt!

I do it the way we hunt Easter eggs, and that means it takes some looking under the wrong bush at times!


For a simple way to disconnect without using tools, I go with these:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart...stems/16006670

But I can plug in here at the house so I use a Trik-L-Start to keep from using two different ways to keep both battery strings charged.

EDIT:
Don't fail to look these areas over for good info, especially the wiring ID as that can give info on where a specific wire on the drawing go to and from!!

[DesertRatt]

I found a couple of those EverStart disconnects at Walmart and Harbor Freight. Had to buy a charger too. So, I'm charging the truck batter now at home after pulling it out of the truck.



I see however that using that disconnect involves an odd connection. There's just a hole in one end for the cable to connect to. It would appear that I will need a short cable with a lug on one end, and a way to squeeze the bare wire on the opposite end? And then run a bolt through the disconnect. A bit odd, but I'm sure I can gin something up.



I'm also trying to find out how to measure the KEY OFF drain of a 2005 E450. I suppose all modern cars and trucks have this DRAIN when OFF issue. Never gave it much thought before.



Thanks for all the great tips and info.

[l1v3fr33ord1]

DesertRatt-

Here is a link to a GAMA Electronics BS200 top-post battery disconnect switch that is similar to the EverStart. The page includes a video (link here) showing how it connects to the battery and cable. GAMA Electronics also sells a model for side-post batteries.

[Morich]

The disconnect I use is for a top post type battery and it just needs to go on the post of the battery and then the cable to the post of the disconnect if that makes sense. Moving cable off the battery post to the round end of the disconnect and then the disconnect onto the battery.

[DesertRatt]

Richard!
Thank you. Can’t believe how dumb I am not to see how it works!!!
Thank you for helping an old geezers cross the street!��

BTW, great doodle!

[2cyber71]

I keep my Rv plugged in 100% of the time.

When I put my old Gasers into storage I put battery shut offs on both the house and chassis batteries. Turned them off right at the battery. Keep them good all winter.

In 2007 I put my RV pad in next to the house with 50 amps, and sewer hookup.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by DesertRatt

Richard!
Thank you. Can’t believe how dumb I am not to see how it works!!!
Thank you for helping an old geezers cross the street!��

BTW, great doodle!

My doodles may not be that great but I live with it.
When about six, my granddaughter looked at a picture I drew and informed me, "Papa, your pictures make me sick!"

She really has done some great work, so I'm not surprised mine are less than impressive!

[DesertRatt]

Monday Update:


1/ After charging the truck battery I put it in this morning and the V10 roared to life immediately. Ok, that's a good start.



2/I then tried to install the cutoff gizmo as mention in the doodle above. Well..........It simply would not tighten around the Neg post. It LOOKS like the right fit, but no matter how many turns I take on the bolt, the gizmo slips right off the terminal. So, I get out a bigger socket wrench for a bit more torque, and the cheap materials give out, the square head capture feature on the terminal strips, the thread on the soft bolt strip and the whole thing is a ball of crap.



3/ Trip to the hardware store to buy stainless steel nuts and bolts. I'll try again.


4/Oddly, after putting in the newly charged truck battery, I opened the coach door and the step came gliding out. WHAT? Best I can tell, the step is operated by the truck battery. The house batteries wouldn't even register on the "CHECK LEVELS" panel inside the coach.


5/Weirder yet....after driving the rig home (15 minutes) from storage, I put the charger on the coach batteries and it read "13.2V 80% capacity." I decided to charge them anyway. while I work on this disconnect business.



6/I'm heading out now to try once more to attach that disconnect gizmo. I'm not all that hopeful.

[Elkman]

There are two circuits powered off the batteries, the 12v circuit(s) and the 110V that is powered by the inverter. If the inverter is left on it can gradually discharge the batteries and that is why in part there is the Perko switch that shuts off everything.

There is a point where with lead acid batteries they no longer hold a full charge. Load testing by checking the voltage drop when powering the inverter and running the microwave is one way to check the condition of the batteries. 80% SOC is different with older batteries that can only provide 80Ah or less when fully charged.

[DesertRatt]

Thanks Elkman.

I’m still not sure what happened. The truck battery seems to be more involved than i ever imagined. But, I did get the shutoff installed on the truck battery and I think it will work well. I didn’t put a shutoff on the coach battery because the one I bought wouldn’t fit. I’m shopping for a different style.

I put the RV away again, and used the kill switch provided by Winnebago inside the door. For now.

[jcurtisis]

I suggest you resist the temptation to leave your motorhome idle for several weeks without checking it periodically. Even if you have the house turned off and the chassis battery on trickle charge (or fully charged and then disconnected) it is good to check for vermin, start the engine and check for vagrants, trolls or giant spiders who may have taken up residence. Our chassis battery is always on a trickle charge, house off, I start up the engine every 4-5 days, and MONTHLY run the gennie for about an hour under load (just set a mental note to do that on the first of the month).

[Morich]

One point on my motorhome that can be great or a real pain is the steps and how hard it is to keep them from flying out. There is a kill switch for the steps at the door but it is nearly impossible to trick the steps into staying in! I can use the kill switch to keep them out but if I want to stand in front of the door and reach my battery compartment, I want them IN but every time I open the door the magnet switch tells on me and the step flies out and bangs my shins. If it is all out and where I want it and I start the engine, the steps fly IN.
I'm sure glad somebody is watching out to make sure I don't leap out into space or make sure I don't drive with the steps out but it sure gets fussy trying to work when I never know when the "shin knocker" is going to strike! I have a magnet meant to keep it from happening but it falls off way too easy!

Things are meant to confuse us and the battery is one of the big ones. When it says 80% charged after a fifteen minute drive, it is just kidding!!!
I think of batteries this way.

They are the same as if we had six containers lined up and connected at the bottom filled with water. If we add black ink to the first container and look in, we see it is almost solid black, but if we wait an hour and look, we may not see much color at all as the color has settled and moved to spread out in all six containers.

So when we put a charger of any sort like the alternator and we look at the first hole, where the positive post is, we see the same as lots of color due to it being a chemical reaction that takes place right there but if we wait an hour or more, we may find out the battery charge (color?) has settled and moved all through the other cells and there is not really very much there at all! Called "surface charge" if you want to do some reading on it.

The big issue is that we do a voltage test and it tells us we are good but what is really important is that we wait for things to settle or do a load test. The load test is designed to put a load on the battery and use up that surface charge so that we get a better look at the whole battery, not just the result of our recent charging.

The chemical in the lead acid reaction will only produce and hold about 12.8 in a good totally charged battery, so if you see any higher like 13, it is not a true story but the remains of the higher voltage we use to charge the battery. The 80% state of charge is maybe one step above the old "idiot lights" on cars but not very much better as they do tend to lie to us.

And keep in mind that the design is meant to keep us safe, even from ourselves and things like the CO and propane detectors are considered too important to let us turn them off.
If we want to kill ourselves with the gas and not get notified, we have to work to do special things to shut off the alarms!

[wyocamper]

Originally Posted by Morich

I have a magnet meant to keep it from happening but it falls off way too easy!

GO-RIL-LA!


2" wide Gorilla tape is your friend. Really hard to work in my battery compartment without first Gorilla taping a magnet over the screen door sensor.

[xlthompson]

My heated mirrors killed my batteries. 2013 vista