Converting 2020 Era 70x to Lithium

[axelrod]

We have a 2020 Era 70x and want to swap it over to Lithium. I have searched through this forum a ton, and found some answers but not all. So, hopefully somebody else has done this, and can point me in the right direction, especially regarding the Charge Mate Pro.

Here is what I do know.
The onan generator is an onan 2500 quiet, which requires 360 cold cranking amps (CCA). 2 - 100Ah Battle Born batteries can handle that.

The Zamp charger is fine, not the most efficient option but works for Lithium

The converter/charger needs to be swapped out - the one that is in it is the PD9245C and it needs to be swapped out to: PD9145ALV

It has a MasterVolt Charge Mate Pro 40 which should protect the alternator, and Battle Born has tested that particular model. Battle Born says though that you have to: “make sure the equalize is disabled and temp sensor removed. Put on AGM setting.”. MasterVolts documentation on their site (even the downloads of manuals) is not great. Has anybody done this?

Thanks

[Winterbagoal]

For generator starting amperage, you might want to verify the BB 12V output specs w/BB support. They look a little below what you say you'll need. 200A surge for 30 seconds is what it says online. My Relions are specced similar, but they seem able to do it when fully charged. I have the QD3200, and it needs around the same amperage to start.

[axelrod]

Thanks @Winterbagoal . BB did verify that it would be fine for cranking the generator. They have been great. Just trying to figure out the Charge Mate Pro now.

[DavidM]

Consider spending a few more bucks and upgrading to the 9180ALV charger. That will meet the BB specs and charge your batteries faster and minimize genset running time. You will also need to upgrade the wire size from the converter to the batteries.

Your scheme makes sense to me, although I don't totally understand what the Chargemate Pro does. Is it bidirectional? If the Era uses the Precision Circuits BIM 160 then where do you wire the Chargemate Pro. If it is in the circuit from the BIM to the chassis battery then if it is not bidirectional the auxilliary start boost switch won't work. It will be blocked if it is effectively a diode which I assume it is.

David

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by axelrod

Thanks @Winterbagoal . BB did verify that it would be fine for cranking the generator. They have been great. Just trying to figure out the Charge Mate Pro now.

Yeah, they're pretty good. I dealt with Jodi back in 2018 when I started looking into this stuff, and a year later I went with Relions, because they were the only lithium seller at the time that had a self heating 12V 100Ah model, and I live where the temps get down to their low end of charging temperature limit of 4F/-20C in the winter months. I hadn't planned on being here that much in those months, but covid has pretty much scuttled that.
They told me back then that my PD9245 converter/charger plus the Zamp ZS-30A PWM charge controller would work fine with their BB10012 models. No extra hardware required "as long as the absorption/bulk charge is 14.4-14.6 and float is close to 13.6 then you’ll be good to go." (quoted). I have noted that they have changed their position on that more recently, and since they now sell a lot of extra "required hardware" to prevent alternator burnout, among other things. I have since added a 3rd 100W panel and a Charge Wizard Pendant to manually bump up the charge rate if I'm plugged in and I think it might be needed. That's it. I only have 200Ah of battery, and I think that may be why I haven't burned up my alternator. It can handle that amount of draw, in a worst case scenario.
I wish I could help more with your original questions. Folks with more knowledge and experience than me, will undoubtedly come to your aid.

[axelrod]

@DavidM the MasterVolt Charge Mate Pro 40 is a current limited electronic charge relay with high efficiency and reverse current protection. So it should isolate everything properly, but the limited information on the MasterVolt has this comment for Lithium wrt the Charge Mate “ all types (Lithium Ion protection via Multi purpose contact, product code 77030500)”. And the site basically has no information about that multipurpose contact. https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...ontact-output/

[Winterbagoal]

Maybe this will help, David? It's from West Marine's website...It sounds to me as if it's a multi-drop, unidirectional, charge splitter/limiter/isolator, but I'm no expert.

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/maste...rger--17979980

[DavidM]

The WM blurb says explicitly that “the return current is automatically blocked”, ie it is NOT bidirectional.

That would imply that the aux battery boost switch (emergency chassis starting) would not work, right?

David

[axelrod]

Originally Posted by DavidM

The WM blurb says explicitly that “the return current is automatically blocked”, ie it is NOT bidirectional.

That would imply that the aux battery boost switch (emergency chassis starting) would not work, right?

David

The mastervolt will supposedly support the boost, but they did not wire it up in my Era. The Era manual discusses in one spot that it exists, and refers you to another section. That section doesn’t exist in the manual

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by axelrod

The converter/charger needs to be swapped out - the one that is in it is the PD9245C and it needs to be swapped out to: PD9145ALV

You also have the choice of just using the PD dongle with your PD9245C. That has a setting that sets the generator output to what is proper for the Battle Born batteries and leaves that setting for 4 hours. After that it returns to the normal output, but you could again reset it for Lithium.

The cost of the dongle is about $20 in the US and it may well be a good enough solution for you rather than replacing the entire charger. That is what I did and I have been happy with the way it works and with the savings from using it rather than replacing the charger.

[misteracng]

I had the same questions about the chargemate pro 40. I have this setup on my winnebago 2021 view with flooded batteries. I spoke to westmarine support, and it is mainly used to limit alternator to 40amps charging the coach batteries as mercedes specs no more than that. Based on wiring diagrams for my view it is also hooked up to boost from coach to chassis to help start, but this cuts off after 30 seconds or so. Also the mastervolt documentation mentions compatibility with lithiums, but this is not useful because it requires hooking up the chargemate to one of the mastervolt control panels which can then be set to manage cutoffs for lithiums. It then just turns the chargemate on an off as needed. I also spoke to winnebago as they add a combiner device in addition with the factory lithium upgrade. The purpose of this combiner is to account for lithium coach batteries needing different cut-off voltages. Winnebago support explained, that without the combiner the chargemate would constantly trigger to charge the lithiums with minimal voltage changes. It was not hazardous, but could reduce lithium battery lifetime, so they added it. It seems to be wired in between the chargemate and the batteries. The other option would be to swap the chargemate for a DC-DC charger.

[SpecE30]

I am switching to a lithium battery (315Ah Lithionics) as well and I had the same question regarding the Charge Mate Pro. Based on what I have learned the problem is that it does not switch to a "float charge phase" reducing the voltage to around 13.5V. By not doing that you are essentially operating the batteries outside the manufacturers recommendation and that seems to me not that good from longterm perspective. I have ordered a Victron DC-DC charger to avoid any risks. I will keep the Charge Mate in place but I will switch it off by putting one of the control inputs to ground (the manual has the details).

[misteracng]

Originally Posted by SpecE30

I am switching to a lithium battery (315Ah Lithionics) as well and I had the same question regarding the Charge Mate Pro. Based on what I have learned the problem is that it does not switch to a "float charge phase" reducing the voltage to around 13.5V. By not doing that you are essentially operating the batteries outside the manufacturers recommendation and that seems to me not that good from longterm perspective. I have ordered a Victron DC-DC charger to avoid any risks. I will keep the Charge Mate in place but I will switch it off by putting one of the control inputs to ground (the manual has the details).

I think you are correct, the chargemate, its mainly an isolator and amp limiter, it has no float setting, the combiner used by winnebago on my View just allows charging and then stops when voltage reached, no floating. I believe the combiner stops charging at 14volts, so it won't try to charge the lithiums when they are almost fully charged. I think its there way of adapting to the lithiums without using a DC-DC charger.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by SpecE30

I am switching to a lithium battery (315Ah Lithionics) as well

I have been curious as to the price of the Lithionics 315 AH battery. There is no price listed on the Lithionics website so I was wondering what price they are charging for it.

I have seen the MSRP sheet for a new (although not yet delivered) Winnebago EKKO and I saw the price Winnebago is charging for the Lithionics 315 AH battery, but I don't know if that is what Lithionics itself is charging.

[misteracng]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I have been curious as to the price of the Lithionics 315 AH battery. There is no price listed on the Lithionics website so I was wondering what price they are charging for it.

I have seen the MSRP sheet for a new (although not yet delivered) Winnebago EKKO and I saw the price Winnebago is charging for the Lithionics 315 AH battery, but I don't know if that is what Lithionics itself is charging.

Its listed at 4500 I think.
https://www.offthegridrvs.com/Lithio...2107-cs200.htm

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by misteracng

Its listed at 4500 I think.
https://www.offthegridrvs.com/Lithio...2107-cs200.htm

Thanks. I guess I missed that page.

And that is much, much less than Winnebago is charging for the battery if ordered for an EKKO.

[axelrod]

Originally Posted by misteracng

I had the same questions about the chargemate pro 40. I have this setup on my winnebago 2021 view with flooded batteries. I spoke to westmarine support, and it is mainly used to limit alternator to 40amps charging the coach batteries as mercedes specs no more than that. Based on wiring diagrams for my view it is also hooked up to boost from coach to chassis to help start, but this cuts off after 30 seconds or so. Also the mastervolt documentation mentions compatibility with lithiums, but this is not useful because it requires hooking up the chargemate to one of the mastervolt control panels which can then be set to manage cutoffs for lithiums. It then just turns the chargemate on an off as needed. I also spoke to winnebago as they add a combiner device in addition with the factory lithium upgrade. The purpose of this combiner is to account for lithium coach batteries needing different cut-off voltages. Winnebago support explained, that without the combiner the chargemate would constantly trigger to charge the lithiums with minimal voltage changes. It was not hazardous, but could reduce lithium battery lifetime, so they added it. It seems to be wired in between the chargemate and the batteries. The other option would be to swap the chargemate for a DC-DC charger.

Do you happen to have a part number for the combiner? Is it the feature code: 22N. I found this: http://catalog.winnebagoind.com/2020/331311.htm

[misteracng]

Originally Posted by axelrod

Do you happen to have a part number for the combiner? Is it the feature code: 22N. I found this: CHASSIS WIRING 331311-01-000

Yes its on the chassis wiring diagram, 22N, part number: 338810-01-000, my view is prewired and already has the 4 wires that attach to it in the battery bay.

[misteracng]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Thanks. I guess I missed that page.

And that is much, much less than Winnebago is charging for the battery if ordered for an EKKO.

I am pretty sure it will fit in under the step where my current batteries are, but I jsut didnt want to spend the extra money, and I would have to rewire a bit, because it only has 2 terminals, the drop in G31 size lithionics is a direct swap and give 250AH so pretty close. I think the 315AH pack would be great it you are going for at least 2.


I ordered from lichtsinn, this use to be a xantrex part, but the one they sent is made by another company now.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by misteracng

I ordered from lichtsinn, this use to be a xantrex part, but the one they sent is made by another company now.

Who makes the combiner you got from Lichtsinn?

David