Considering solar upgrade 2019 Navion 24D

[sixthscroll]

Hi everyone. First time RV upgrade coming in.

So I’d like to upgrade my solar, battery, and inverters on my 2019 Nation 24D for boondocking and 15 amp mooch docking.

I’d like to take this in phases.

I figure my first phase is to upgrade the inverter and charger and cabling to accommodate phase 2. This would include modifying my electrical system to run the whole RV off the inverter. Currently, it’s only the TV and stuff worth of outlets. I suppose phase 2 may need to be with this phase if a 48 VDC system is needed to make this worth while.

Phase 2 would probably be batteries upgraded to handle the full load of the RV. I figure this makes sense because mooch docking will get me a long way. I want to be able to keep the RV at the house with a standard extension cord.

Phase 3 would be to add batteries to provide the capacity needed to keep up in full boon docking.

Phase 4 would be the solar panels needed to fully charge said batteries in a typical partially sunny day.

I’m looking for any experiences, YouTube videos, product recommendations and dissuasion, schematics, etc.

I know enough to be dangerous.

Thanks in advance.

[powercat_ras]

For the Mooch Docking from a 15 amp outlet, you might want to have a setup where the only thing on the 15 A mooched power is your AC to DC converter-charger. Perhaps also the refrigerator on mooched power, too.

You then plug the rest of the RV into the inverter. You manually manage AC used to stay within the capability of the inverter. Practically, this works for everything except the Air Cond and electric heaters.

On my RV, the converter-charger plugs into a receptacle on the back of the WFCO power box. I looped that Converter Charger AC power feed thru the basement electric cord bay with a male/female plug/socket there. Can unplug the charger "normal" connection and plug it into the mooch docking extension cord.

The refrigerator AC cord would also "loop" thru the same spot as the converter charger. This makes it more complicated since now the mooch docking extension cord would have to have 2 plugs connected to it rather than one.

The combined load of the refrigerator and converter-charger would be worst case about 1,000 watts and on average much less.

= = = = =

The inverter AC output goes to a 30 Amp socket that the shore cable can be plugged into. You manually manage the AC used to keep from overloading the inverter.
I have my RV set up so I can do this.

I can switch between this "mooch docking" mode and standard 30 amp shore power mode. Shore power and power from generator work normal when those two looped power cords are plugged to together.

When you go to the solar power phase down the road, you can add a 15 Amp rated power relay that automatically opens power to the AC cord of the converter-charger whenever the inverter is generating AC power rather than trying to manually unplug the converter charger when using the inverter when boondocking. You can also use a automatic transfer switch in place of manually plugging the shore cable into the inverter. That's my current setup on my RV.

= = = = =

Sizing:

It is not practical to put enough solar on a Navion to be able to power Air Con, a practical upper limit is to be able to use microwave, use electronics, fans, kitchen appliances like toaster and coffee maker, bathroom hair care stuff.

If your Navion has a propane / AC refrigerator plan on using it on propane when on solar. A propane electric refrigerator is not efficient on AC. If it is a non-propane then it is more AC efficeint and solar can be sized to run it for a day or two from solar generated power with the right battery sizing.

Phase 1:

Size the inverter so it can handle a 15 amp load from microwave or bathroom gadget, it will need to be able to handle a larger startup current for the microwave to be happy. It will need to be pure sine wave output for the microwave to be happy.

3000 Watt Inverter with remote on/off switch.
- locate as close to batteries as possible,
you want really short 0 AWG + and - runs to the batteries
- 300 Amp ANL fuse in + inverter lead

You won't be able to utilize the power capability of the inverter until you
improve your batteries to be able to deliver the power that inverter can draw...

Either four six volt 200 AH Golf Cart Batteries (Costco has best value, $ 300) or
Three 100 AH LiFe04 Batteries ($ 1200) if in your budget.

If you go with GC batteries then your current converter-charger is OK.
If you go with LiFe04 Batteries you'll need to replace it, suggest PowerMax PM4 60 amp
DC output (it can be configured to charge LiFe04 correctly.

For solar on a Navion you likely will do two 160 watt panels , that's about what can fit on the roof and not have shading issues (any shade on a solar panel kills its output).

You would need a 30 Amp DC output MPPT solar charge controller for 320 watts solar. If you went with slightly bigger panels and had more than 320 then a 40 amp one.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by sixthscroll

I know enough to be dangerous.

From what I read that you want to do, you may be a tad ambitious with a 24ft Class C.

The issues will be space for enough batteries and enough solar panels to accommodate your plans. BUT you can get much of the way there.

You want to run the entire RV off of the inverter. Does that include your rooftop A/C unit? Because that will likely be a bridge too far.

Without that requirement, you will likely need 400w or more of solar, 400aH or more of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and a minimum of 2000w of inverter but ideally a 3000w inverter, such as a Victron Multiplus.

To run your A/C off of your batteries for any meaningful amount of time you would likely need twice the battery amperage from above and then three times the solar mentioned above. And that’s where you will run out of space for that level of equipment.

However, with the suggested quantities that I mentioned above you will find your Navion vastly more capable to operate without needed outside power supply or generation.

You can take this process in steps. For, instance upgrading your existing batteries to LFP and upgrading your inverter will get you a good way along your path. A good RV tech can then retire your power center to have the inverter power more items - such as more receptacles and the microwave. Then add more solar as you go.

Unmentioned but must be considered will be the changes you’ll need to make to other systems to accommodate the LFP batteries. But that can be a subject for another time.

[BobC]

You've clearly spent quite a bit of time thinking this through, but I think you might be overdoing it a bit.

Mooch Docking- I've done this for years, not only with my current MH and my previous TTs. I've never done anything special, just plugged in with an adapter. I do have a large gauge (10/3), 30A marine extension cord that I use to reach my garage outlet to minimize voltage drop. I've never worried about what I power in the MH aside from the A/C, although I haven't had the need to use much. Just don't try to run the microwave at the same time you use a hair dryer of electric coffeemaker, etc. If you want to limit things, I suggest selectively turning your breakers off/on as necessary.

I don't have a large inverter, so I can't comment on future inverter use, although I'm not sure what you mean by a 48V DC system possibly being necessary.

Refrigerator - A lot depends on what type of refrigerator you have. You're in good shape if you have an LPG/Absorption refrigerator. Let us know so our comments can be more specific.

A/C - I agree with previous posters on this. You can pretty much forget about powering it off solar and batteries.

Batteries - I've had golf cart batteries for years and they've performed admirably. I currently have two AGM deep cycle batteries that I'll be replacing them with. At this time, I'm not using my MH enough to justify LiFePO4 batteries, but if I were, I think I'd go that route. Prices have come down and there are some good options in the $500 - $600 price range (100Ah). I wouldn't expect much quality in the $300 price range. Will Prowse is a well-regarded Youtuber who, among other things, reviews LiFePO4 batteries including tearing them down to inspect the innards and construction. I wouldn't buy a LiFePO4 battery that he hasn't positively reviewed. Here's a link to his battery teardowns:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...DwE0k40bpXZBQs

Check out the rest of his channel, you can also get a good education on LiFePO4 by watching his videos. And make sure you watch his video on DC to DC charging since directly charging LiFePO4 batteries from your MH's alternator can be problematical:

https://www.youtube.com/@WillProwse

Solar - I think 400W is a good size. Panels are relatively inexpensive (especially with DIY install) and, if you allow for expansion in your layout, it's easy to add more. You could analyze things to the nth degree in terms of your expected power usage but the reality is you'll never know what you need until you have some experience under your belt. Although I understand that flexible panels have improved, I'd still go with rigid panels.

To summarize, I'd forget about having to do any mods for mooch-docking, inverter and jump right in to battery upgrade and solar.

[sixthscroll]

Thanks. I am trying to think ahead. I don't plan on running anything except the air conditioner when mooch docking. I'd like to keep it plugged in at the house and maintain like 77 degrees inside the RV because I live in the very humid gulf coast. This is my first RV, and maybe I'm being paranoid, but I didn't want to rot out the interior while I wasn't using it. I also have a tiny dehumidifier running in it draining into the sink.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sixthscroll

Thanks. I am trying to think ahead. I don't plan on running anything except the air conditioner when mooch docking. I'd like to keep it plugged in at the house and maintain like 77 degrees inside the RV because I live in the very humid gulf coast. This is my first RV, and maybe I'm being paranoid, but I didn't want to rot out the interior while I wasn't using it. I also have a tiny dehumidifier running in it draining into the sink.

Depending on what A/C you have, this may be a challenge. Many require more that the 15A - 20A you'll get from your standard household outlet (especially when starting). Hopefully you'll be OK. Have you tried doing so? If you can, it's unlikely you'll be able to run much more than the A/C. If you haven't tried it, let us know the make and model of your A/C so we can assess its power needs.

I don't live in a humid climate but I'm sure there are others who can advise you on how to accomplish your goal without running the A/C all the time. It's certainly not a common solution.

By the way, this is the type of marine extension cord I use:

https://www.westmarine.com/marinco-5...-14272439.html

They're not cheap but worth it. They're very UV resistant.

[sixthscroll]

Well, the good news for my current configuration is that my garage is not far from my RV. I got the adapter plug (https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-Am...3020/202307108) to household 120V. This has worked fine so far (but the current weather is not much of a test).

Thanks. Yeah, I expect I'm going to learn a lot in this first year.

[sixthscroll]

I'm actually getting a new AC right now due to some unfortunate events. Any recommendations?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sixthscroll

I'm actually getting a new AC right now due to some unfortunate events. Any recommendations?

I can't help based on personal experience but here's some food for thought. Efficiency (especially starting amp draw) is key if you want to run it off 15A/20A:

https://www.google.com/search?q=most...2&dpr=2.2#ip=1

[creativepart]

Keep in mind if you replace your current A/C unit with another brand you may have problems getting it to work with your existing thermostat and thermostat wiring. Some newer brands are making adapters to overcome this draw back, but that’s not widespread in the industry.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sixthscroll

Thanks. Yeah, I expect I'm going to learn a lot in this first year.

That's an understatement, and we've all been there. Don't fall into the trap of thinking there are a ton of mods that you need to do right away.

It's clear that you've done a lot of thinking about solar, batteries, etc. but you don't need to jump into it with both feet right away. I think that one of the secrets to successful boondocking is to conserve power, think "camping" as opposed to "RVing". We camped for years (including boondocking) in TTs equipped with two 6v golf cart batteries, first without solar and then with 100W - 200W of solar plus a portable generator (which we ran primarily to operate the microwave).

My wife and I came from a sailboating background so we were used to conserving power, using lights only when we need them, enjoying the outdoors instead of watching TV, etc. We were easily OK for up to 5 days or so, but it was just the two of us. I only remember running our generator once for an extended period of time to recharge our batteries and this was while camping in a pretty dense forest in WA.

Not everyone is up for that kind of RVing but, if boondocking is attractive to you, conserving power isn't a big deal.

And, don't forget, there's virtually nothing you can do to make it feasible to run your A/C without shore power without spending megabucks.

[lenore]

Dont forget the possibility of using moveable solar panels while boondocking. increases efficiancy on those days of trees bad solar angles etc. We have a gentleman on our Vita group that has over 900 watt of solar on his roof that is the same length as yours. He does run his air off the batteries and large inverter. The Air can be modified with a soft start box that allows lower start currents. On our Winnebago Vita/Porto we already have external solar panel plug on side of motor home.

[BobC]

I agree with lenore, but I think portable panels are best as a supplement to roof mounted panels. As a primary source of solar, they can be vulnerable to theft and are only active when you have the time and space to deploy them.

[Sparky19053]

On our 24V Navion the most solar wattage I could place on the roof is 500 watts. I believe the stock Zamp controller is rated to 530 watts. I removed one of the 100 watt Zamp panels and added two 200 watt panels. The removed 100 watt Zamp panel is used while the RV is covered connecting to the aux solar connector in the electrical compartment. Keeps the batteries up for the storage months.

500 watts is not going to run the AC but sure works nice keeping the refrigerator cold and allows for some TV watching and laptop usage.

[Marine359]

Your A/C will run fine off a 15 amp circuit if you install an easy start. Costs $250, and takes just an hour to install and program. So, I’d do that as step 1 to conquer the moochdocking needs. You’ll not be able to run the A/C for an appreciable amount of time off batteries/inverter no matter how much battery and solar you have. You don’t have enough space on your roof for enough panels to pull it off. My A/C running off my inverter will drain my 170ah LiFePo4 in about 15 minutes.

Going with a hybrid inverter/charger of 2,000w or 3,000w gives you the ability to power everything and the ability to fast charge LiFePo4 if you decide to go that route on batteries. Don’t believe you have room for multiple 6v GC batteries, but 200ah of LFP might fit just fine, and weigh far far less. On many sprinter based Class C’s there’s only room for two group 31 batteries under the step. Don’t know where your batteries are, but likely room for only two group31. So, 2x LFP may be the perfect fit.

300w of rooftop solar with a 100/30 mppt charge controller will keep them charged up, and everything running in the coach. And a portable soft panel to supplement. We offload many 12v chores (cpap and device charging) to a cheap 300wh powerstation which we charge with a portable panel, from the cigarette lighter outlet, or from SP/gen. Extends the available amphrs of the house batt.

Of course if you switch to LFP you’ll need a dcdc charger or an isolator so you don’t burn out your alternator.

[BobC]

Marine359's advice is excellent. Regarding the LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate, aka LiFePO4) batteries, you should make sure they have low temperature cutoff sensors to make sure the batteries aren't charged at below 32 degrees. Some even have internal heaters to allow cold weather charging. This isn't essential unless you plan on routinely doing so.

Will Prowse is a well-regarded Youtuber who evaluates LFP batteries, including teardowns. These teardowns often uncover poor construction, missing sensors, etc. Personally, I wouldn't buy an LFP battery that hasn't been favorably reviewed by him. He's given a number of relatively inexpensive LFP batteries good reviews. Beware of many of the LFP batteries that are hitting the market in the $300 or lower price ranges. He also has a video on DC-to-DC chargers for RVs. Here's a link to his battery teardowns:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...DwE0k40bpXZBQs

And to his DC-to-DC Charger videos:

https://youtu.be/EcVjPap9dkY

https://youtu.be/JtAUrS4zNSA

[Marine359]

Will Prowse has reliably good advice, but I believe he favors one brand over another probably driven by financial motivations. That exception is the LiFePo4 that I bought. In his initial review of Bigbattery vrs SOC and Chinn, he rated the Bigbattery the best LFP on the market. So, based on his review, I bought one. Two months later he slammed Bigbattery because one of the cells leaked, and he said never buy a Bigbattery. Well, everybody buys their cells from the same Chinese factories, and everybody tests the cells pretty thoroughly before packaging the battery. A cell failure can happen to any manufacturer much later after shipping. Even though Bigbattery replaced the failed battery, Will Prowse still slammed Bigbattery in a third video. All this despite the fact that he didn’t pay for the original battery, and he boasted he continued using the replacement Bigbattery to operate his electric gate. Anyway, my Bigbattery has performed flawlessly. I would strongly recommend, if you purchase a LFP, buy from a domestic assembler (Bigbattery, Battleborn, and a few others) that have a customer service line. In the event of a problem, you’re not likely to have a problem getting the warranty serviced, unlike offshore brands. Will Prowse should alert his audience to this fact, but he doesn’t.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Will Prowse has reliably good advice, but I believe he favors one brand over another probably driven by financial motivations. That exception is the LiFePo4 that I bought. In his initial review of Bigbattery vrs SOC and Chinn, he rated the Bigbattery the best LFP on the market. So, based on his review, I bought one. Two months later he slammed Bigbattery because one of the cells leaked, and he said never buy a Bigbattery. Well, everybody buys their cells from the same Chinese factories, and everybody tests the cells pretty thoroughly before packaging the battery. A cell failure can happen to any manufacturer much later after shipping. Even though Bigbattery replaced the failed battery, Will Prowse still slammed Bigbattery in a third video. All this despite the fact that he didn’t pay for the original battery, and he boasted he continued using the replacement Bigbattery to operate his electric gate. Anyway, my Bigbattery has performed flawlessly. I would strongly recommend, if you purchase a LFP, buy from a domestic assembler (Bigbattery, Battleborn, and a few others) that have a customer service line. In the event of a problem, you’re not likely to have a problem getting the warranty serviced, unlike offshore brands. Will Prowse should alert his audience to this fact, but he doesn’t.

Can you provide a link to the video on the leaking battery?

[Marine359]

The video was initial review and the follow- up video with leaking cell claim were posted over 2 years ago. Probably a lot of people sent him nasty comments like I did after buying on his recommendation. So, he’s likely to have taken the post down from You Tube. I couldn’t find any of the three videos he made about Bigbattery, except for his newest review of Bigbattery 48v residential systems. Certainly there must be a limit on the number of videos he can keep active. He’s got to be paying a lot for the dozens of posts that are still active. I did call Bigbattery after the Prowse’s second post, and their comments were that his follow-up posts were patently unfair considering the extensive testing they put their components through, and that they had never had a reported cell failure before. I would imagine that even Battle Born has had a few reported failures.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Marine359

The video was initial review and the follow- up video with leaking cell claim were posted over 2 years ago. Probably a lot of people sent him nasty comments like I did after buying on his recommendation. So, he’s likely to have taken the post down from You Tube. I couldn’t find any of the three videos he made about Bigbattery, except for his newest review of Bigbattery 48v residential systems. Certainly there must be a limit on the number of videos he can keep active. He’s got to be paying a lot for the dozens of posts that are still active. I did call Bigbattery after the Prowse’s second post, and their comments were that his follow-up posts were patently unfair considering the extensive testing they put their components through, and that they had never had a reported cell failure before. I would imagine that even Battle Born has had a few reported failures.

It's unfortunate that one event can damage both Will's and Big Battery's reputation. I did see a thread that cited Big Battery having checked their cells after Will's video and found something like 11 bad cells in 100,000 or so. I
It's my understanding that the battery that had the leaky cells was larger with a different construction than the battery you purchased.

I've looked at videos from several other reviewers and their reviews, including tear downs, seem to be a lot more cursory. There was one reviewer who noted that the high temperature sensor was mounted on the BMS between some transistors where it was subject to transistor heat. He commented that it should have been mounted on the cells but still gave the battery a positive review.