Confused - House Battery Drain 2007 Adventurer

[ColbyJames]

We are having an issue with our electrical system.
We are living in our motorhome full time. We are plugged in to a 50 amp circuit. Our house batteries keep going down, they are brand new batteries, only a couple months old. We do have a couple of oil filled radiator type electric heaters plugged in and of course some christmas lights. But shouldn't they be drawing from the 50 amps, not the batteries? Does my inverter need to be on or off?
I can charge the batteries by running the engine every couple of days.
We didn't have this problem until we plugged in the christmas lights and heaters.
Oh, It's a 2007 Winnebago Adventurer 38J. We are enjoying this life so far although we have way to much stuff.
Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

[Cooperhawk]

I'm no expert but they should be drawing directly from the 50 amps and not the batteries. You have a transfer switch, (don't know where on your rig though), and it may not be switching from battery to the 50 amp circuit. Then it would be your chargers not being able to keep up charging the batteries. I would bet that switch is not working.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by ColbyJames

We are having an issue with our electrical system.
We are living in our motorhome full time. We are plugged in to a 50 amp circuit. Our house batteries keep going down, they are brand new batteries, only a couple months old. We do have a couple of oil filled radiator type electric heaters plugged in and of course some christmas lights. But shouldn't they be drawing from the 50 amps, not the batteries? Does my inverter need to be on or off?
I can charge the batteries by running the engine every couple of days.
We didn't have this problem until we plugged in the christmas lights and heaters.
Oh, It's a 2007 Winnebago Adventurer 38J. We are enjoying this life so far although we have way to much stuff.
Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

If you've got a digital multi-meter with a 12V DC voltage setting, and can get it hooked up to the batteries, try unplugging the heaters and Xmas lights (LEDs?), see if the voltage rises.
If it does, they could be sucking power from the charging function. If your inverter is on, the batteries are being used as the DC to AC power source at your AC outlets, if it's wired that way. So, the heaters will draw AC power from the 110V outlets, but it's actually coming from the coach batteries. If you're plugged in to 50A shore, that's usually sufficient to keep everything up and running under load. Including battery charging, unless the charger is failing.

[creativepart]

In your control cabinet in the middle of the hall, where the slide controls and OnePlace monitor is there is a Power Control Display - usually right below the OnePlace monitor. It shows how much power is coming in via shore power.

What does your EMS Power Control System display show for incoming shore power? Your inverter can be on or off that doesn't matter because it should be passing the shore power through. Depending on your Inverter controller you "may" have a charger on/off switch. But that's a bit unlikely. The stock controller my Adventurer came with did not have a charger control.

The previous suggestion of a transfer switch issue is a possible. So, is a faulty power pedestal where you plugged in.

Check the easy things first - power pedestal, circuit breakers on the power pedestal, EMS shore power readout. Then report back.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

If your inverter is on, the batteries are being used as the DC to AC power source at your AC outlets, if it's wired that way.

Possible but not very likely. The Inverter on that size coach is almost certain to have AC pass through. However, if the Inverter is on and the Shore power at the pedestal is off (bad pedestal, tripped pedestal breakers) then that would use the Inverter and cause the battery drain.

Also, a malfunctioning Transfer Switch could easily be the issue.

[BobC]

Have you checked your converter/charger? If it's defective or has blown its fuse (internal or on its case) it won't be applying a charge to your batteries and your house lights and other 12v appliances will draw down your batteries and they won't charge until your engine is running.

In any case, I don't know when Winnebago switched over to converter/chargers with multi-stage charging but, if yours isn't multi-stage, it's time for a replacement. Here's what I purchased for my 2002 35U:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[imnprsd]

ColbyJames: You should not be charging your house batteries by running your engine.

Please tell us what type of Inverter Charger (like a Dimension Inverter/Charger) you have or if you have a Converter Charger as BobC wants to know.

If you have a 2000W Dimension Inverter/Charger it is possible your charger will not work properly if your battery temp sensor is faulty. This sensor also needs to connect to the NEGATIVE side of your battery post! (...Not the positive side or you can damage your inverter/charger.)

You can still buy this temp sensor from Sensata-Dimensions direct for about $35. I ordered one over the summer.

However, I also ordered a Victron 17A Battery Charger on Amazon, I now use it almost exclusively when I have shore power for 3-4 days. At 17A I can fully charge my 420AH of house batteries in about 13 hours, because I always charge them when my SOC reaches 45-50%. So that about 200AH of charge.

But I also installed the Victron 17A Charger ($130) to get cell phone monitoring via blue tooth; and I was surprised to see I was using about 120AH/day for 12V appliances... like my RV lights and all the other 12V misc stuff. They also make a 25A model for $175.

https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Blue-...8126335&sr=8-6

...And I use the Victron as a battery maintainer when my RV is in storage. ...All I need to do it turn off the Battery Disconnect Switch and fish the power cord outside my bedroom tip-out window and I'm good to go.

Your 120V appliance run off off generator or shore power; and if you have a n Inverter/Charger you want to leave that "ON". The inverter is smart enough to turn the inverter portion "OFF" when generator or shore power is present. My Dimensions Inverter has in internal transfer relay that handles this.

Note: If one of your house batteries has a short, then that might explain your situation. So you need to check the voltage on each battery and do some more aggressive testing if you know your house batteries are receiving 13.7V or more. This will indicate your charger is working properly.

How old are your batteries?

[ColbyJames]

the panel says 50 amps are coming in. The power status also has all of the lights lit.
Water Heater
A/C Comp #2
Fan Speed
Refrigerator
I tried to attach a picture. Would the inverter run the microwave? We can use the microwave and a coffeemaker without any problems.
I'll try to find the inverter and converter? this weekend. I live in Oregon and between the rain and work it's hard to find a good time to walk around and play with something electrical.
I'll check back in when I have more info
Thanks for all your help

[creativepart]

If all the RV is on shore power, which you've verified, then it could simply be your charger isn't functioning properly.

You have either an inverter/charger or a converter/charger. It is possible to have "kind of" both... but not two chargers. You can have a converter/charger and an inverter. But it would be an inverter without a charger.

I looked at the 2007 38J wiring diagram and it suggests you have a converter/charger. It is located either under your fridge OR in an outside compartment that is under your fridge.

These do fail and with yours 13 years old a replacement would bring improved charging functionality.

In fact, looking at your year and model's operators manual I don't see an inverter as an option. I could be mistaken, or a previous owner may have installed one, but either way it's likely you have a converter/charger and it's located under the fridge behind the "power center" circuit breakers.

[tderonne]

Originally Posted by creativepart

If all the RV is on shore power, which you've verified, then it could simply be your charger isn't functioning properly.

It's probably that simple. Just check the battery voltage when you are plugged in. Converter should be putting out around 13.5 volts (which should be keeping the lights bright too).

[ColbyJames]

after some more checking, I think it has something to do with the generator transfer switch. Once the refer was beeping and saying low dc, I tried to start the generator and the voltage went from 10.9 to 13.2 and it stays there for quite a long time. When it runs down again I repeat the process and it seems to be working. The generator doesn't start, it just clicks. All of the terminals on my batteries are clean and tight.
I was able to check the inverter and it seems to be working, it's warm and the fan turns on once in awhile. I'm not sure how in the world I could get in there to change it short of pulling the fridge out.
Now I'm more confused than ever.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by ColbyJames

after some more checking, I think it has something to do with the generator transfer switch. Once the refer was beeping and saying low dc, I tried to start the generator and the voltage went from 10.9 to 13.2 and it stays there for quite a long time. When it runs down again I repeat the process and it seems to be working. The generator doesn't start, it just clicks. All of the terminals on my batteries are clean and tight.
I was able to check the inverter and it seems to be working, it's warm and the fan turns on once in awhile. I'm not sure how in the world I could get in there to change it short of pulling the fridge out.
Now I'm more confused than ever.

This is an easy thing to happen when you get so much bad information.
One point to get clear is that you have a very simple operation when speaking of the transfer switch. It has two directions from which it can draw power, the generator or the power cord and one way for power to go out. It has almost nothing to do with the 12Volt system directly, so if the 110AC things like the air conditioner work on both generator and plugged in, the transfer switch is not the problem.

The inverter is only needed when you want it to use 12VDC to make 110 AC and that is only needed when you are not plugged into power! I suggest leaving it off unless you don't have 110AC power.

Most of the things mentioned point to a problem with charging the batteries such as the generator will not start because it is not getting good enough voltage to crank as it should.

So a simple test of the charging is needed and that can be quite simple if you have a meter. Step one is knowing that a battery of this type will never be above 12.6-12.8 when it has time to settle after charging has been done.

Shut most things like lights, fans and such down to just remove some doubts but don't obsess too much on that point. Without running the engine for at least an hour or more, unplug the power cord and see what the coach batteries voltage shows. If it shows above 12.8, that is what is called a "surface charge" from the charging that has been done. For a more clear cut answer for whether they have been charging, wait with the power cord and generator off and without running the RV engine until the voltage goes down below the first reading. If you then plug in the cord and the battery voltage jumps up above 12.8, you are seeing the charge voltage reaching them!

At that point, you need to make a decision based on a couple points. One is that it is possible to get a new battery which is bad OR there may be a reason the battery is not charging even when the voltage is right to do that.

The battery charging is a chemical reaction and it has to have the electrical current go through the battery positive post and reach ground on the other negative post and go all the way to ground. It can be as simple as the end at the frame is corroded or loose!

If it is hard to find that other end, testing with a meter will tell you, without you having to crawl under, around and through!

Test the ground cable for resistance to ground! It should be near zero.

[GG1]

I had the same problem a few yrs ago. The heat sensor that connects from the dimesions inverter to the battery terminal became disconnected. And caused a malfunction somehow and killed my bstteries. I recconnected the sensor wire and bought 3 new batteries everything worked fine

[Petro]

I am not sure how your inverter is supplying power to your 120V outlets but on my Horizon the inverter powered all our outlets. All power to our outlets were supplied from our main breaker box to the outlets through the inverter.

My main 120V box had a 30A breaker labeled Inverter. All the power to all the outlets were limited to 30 amps by the breaker. This equates to 3600 watts.

We also had 2 electric heaters. We always had the same problem you are having running 2 heaters along with the TV, battery charger, and microwave when or if used.

I am not sure how your outlets are wired but my guess if it is like ours was we had to run a special extension cord out through a window or door to the power pedestal to power the 2nd heater. When we got close to the 3600 watt load the inverter would shut down the battery charger function to avoid
overloading the beaker.

My suggestion is to try & power just 1 heater through your inverter and see what happens. If it is wired like our Horizon was you will likely have solved your problem. My guess is there is nothing wrong with your electrical system at all. Being plugged in a 50 A plug is no help if all you have to work with is 30A. I hope I have helped you solve your problem.

Don

[Journey39n]

When plugged into shore power inverter should be off.

Converter will make all the 12v the coach needs, and could also be the charger for the batteries.

New or not, did you check the water in the batteries, sounds like they are not holding a charge.

Interesting that the problem occurred after the Christmas lights and electric heaters were added. I would start by unplugging them for a while and see if the batteries take a charge.

Just more thoughts to add to everyone else's.

[Bobn1957]

IMHO that the inverter is providing the AC needed for the heaters/Christmas lights and the charger is not able to keep up. I would turn the inverter off so that it bypasses to shore power. When I was working as an Airport Electrician it was forbidden to plug a heater into an inverter because the inverter doesn't like supplying power to pure resistive load. (Our inverters were on essential circuits)

[imnprsd]

I missed the OP comment about running 2 heaters. ...Granted they are not electric floor heaters, but maybe they pull 1000W each. Maybe 1200W each?

Here's some info on what power you do and do not have access too:

A RV used "50A service" or "30A service" but we plug into the same power off the local transformer as we do in our home.

An RV with 50A service will have a 50A breaker, with a L1 (black) wire, a L2 (red) wire and one Common (white) wire.

An RV with 30A service will have a 30A breaker, with just L1 (black)wire and one Common (white) wire.

The shore power has both L1 and L2 available, but your RV shore power box is wired according to 50A plug and 30A plug standards.

Also, L1 & L2 in an RV are never combined like we wire our home dryer or oven for example that run on 220V, but they could be. There is just no reason to. (Not yet anyway. Maybe when they start making mini dryers they will. And then ACs can make the switch easy too. Inverters too. It's all cost driven.)

Circuit breakers in the home or RV (they are the same type) only monitor the Load (heat not current). That's why we sometimes call them "thermal breakers" and they are not very accurate. (+/- 2 amps is my guess, but can be spot-on)

L1 is commonly the "black wire" and L2 is commonly the "red wire," but you can have any color. Copper wire is just copper when it comes to electric current.

The neutral (white wire) is your return wire or "common" and in an RV we "bond" the white wire to ground to avoid a "hot skin condition" (...I will leave to someone else to explain so I don't get the concept wrong.)

If you look at your circuit panel you will see your appliances and single wall sockets are protected with either 15A or 20A circuit breakers with matching wire gauged according to "standards." ...Don't ask me what kind.

Consequently, when you look at a wire gauge it is supposed to be match to the circuit breaker type and to the wall socket load or appliance.

The "standard" calls for 12Gauge to be used with 20A "or less" loads; and 14Gauge is for 15A.

Note: These are just standards meant to be followed and when they are not your wire can melt and FIRE will ensue... unless that circuit breaker "pops" ...and if you overload your circuit by running 2 floor heaters on the same line.. you better hope your circuit breaker trips!

To review: Your RV main breaker is limited by either 50A or 30A breaker. Hence the name "50A Service" or "30A Service, but your shore power can deliver much more.

And you circuit breaker box contains a bunch of thermal safety switched that will "trip" if the load on the line exceeds 15A or 20A as determined by the breaker.

Your main breakers service a row of loads that are summed together were...

Appliance 1 + Wall Socket 1 & 2 & 3 ext. do not exceed 50A if you have 50A service or 30A if you have 30A service.... or the MAIN BREAKER WILL TRIP.

Note: The main breaker will have the thickest wires!

So if you run your hair dryer and your microwave at the same time, this will put you above 30A.

2 floor heaters at 1200W each or 12.5Ax2=25A is over the limit of any one wall socket limit too! ...But maybe possible with 50A service if your walls sockets are wires to L1 and L2 separately.

If you try to draw 25A on one line (L1 or L2) ...POP GOES THE CIRCUIT BREAKER! ...Or you better hope it does!

Same goes for a 18gauge, 50 foot extension cord you run from your house to your garage 15A wall socket. The long wire heats up and with the load of just one AC pulling 14A you can see why a 15A socket will not cut it.

Modern 20A Wall Sockets are identified by a horizonal "T" so you know that it his heavy duty and has a 20A breaker in the circuit panel. (Or at least it is supposed to.)

Only your AC and your inverter has a 30A breaker. And your power panel takes L1=50 and L2=50 and alternates these connections in your breaker box. Never will you have 50A. Never will you have 100A.

And your 50A Generator will have L1 an L2 monitored by a Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) with priority given to the generator if you are connected to shore power and then you start your generator.

...And FYI, that 30A plug you 30A RVers use to plug into 30A shore power... Well, that's really L1 on in the box feeding 50A to your RV... but your main circuit box is "throttled back" by using a 30A Main Breaker.

...And FYI, us 50A users who use a "dog bone" to plug in to so-called 30A shore power are really grabbing the L1=50A service, which is then sent to both sides of the circuit breaker box so all circuit breakers have power. Consequently, this is when your Intelletec EMS/PMS takes over and begins to monitor your power consumption. Your Power Management System AKA "load-shredder" will drop power in a predetermined sequence to keep your AC running first and and so on.

Note 1: When you are 50A shore power service your EMS will not show amps because your PMS (load shredder) is not turned on.

Note 2: When you are 50A generator service your EMS will show amps, because it is turned on. However, I do know know if the PMS is monitoring your system or not? ...Maybe someone else knows?

Trivia... is fun when it all makes sense!

And by sense, these "standards" are meant to keep unknowledgeable people form getting in trouble; and knowledgeable people from trying to do things they shouldn't!

The pictures below are typical for 50A Winnebago RVs. Your circuit box main panel and sub-panel maybe different.

[Chuckmor]

The house batteries on my 2000 Adventurer were not charging when on shore or generator power. The converter charger was putting out the proper 12v, but not getting to the batteries. Turns out the large output wires were not securely fastened into the terminal lugs of the converter. Fixed the problem. Very simple but took awhile to find.

[imnprsd]

Easy fixes are the best kind, but are very hard to find sometimes!

...And in any coach, if your inverter is giving your trouble charging, or your lights flicker... maybe all you need to do is clean your house battery positive-200A Fuse and/or your ground cable connections to the frame. (It gets real rusty an dirty down there!)

[Morich]

Terms to know when working to fix things?

Inverter-
an apparatus which converts direct current into alternating current.

Converter-
a device for altering the nature of an electric current or signal, especially from AC to DC or vice versa, or from analog to digital or vice versa.

When your batteries are not being charged, do not bother checking the inverter!