Chassis batteries not charging 2004 Vectra 40

[Marnewelding]

2004 winnie vectra 40 While driving to a race I noticed the voltage starting to drift lower on my dash gauge. Had wife go check the power panel and she confirmed we were under 12.5v. I had her start killing anything 12v she could. Still, Haven't figured out how to turn off the DRL. Found an exit and was able to get off with power down to 9v. I grabbed my meter and and check my batteries and I was reading no incoming voltage from the alternator. When I had purchased this bus the inverter/charger was already bad and the company we bought it from installed a battery charger using the winter block heater Outlet. The generator was running so I did have a charge going to the house batteries. I essentially ran a jumper cable from the house batteries to the chassis batteries it was able to make it to the race. My question is should I start looking at the wiring on the Winnebago side or should it should I go to the engine compartment and start looking at the Freightliner side. I have never been able to find a wiring diagram for anything on the Freightliner side. I don't know if there is a fuse or a fusible link between the alternator and the battery system. Being a retired person I have put on a few more pounds and working in the engine compartment gets a little frustrating. Thanks in advance

[creativepart]

I've the alternator was charging the house battery but not the chassis then a) it's not the alternator b) it could be the BIM. The BIM (battery isolation manager) has a number of jobs, the first is to connect the house and chassis battery banks to the alternator when the engine is running.

It could be dead batteries in the chassis bank (one battery or both). It also sounds like some kind of short. Even bad or loose battery cables in one battery that could be draining the other battery.

I wish I could say if it was Winnebago or Freightliner - but each time I think about which it is I go back and forth and can't decide. I tend to think freightliner, but maybe not....

[rgvtexan]

Welcome to iRV2

PM me your email address and I will send you some Freightliner prints.

You can combine the house and chassis batteries by pressing the 'Battery Boost' switch on the dash, a toothpick wedged in will hold it engaged.

Have the alternator rebuilt a lot less than new.

[rgvtexan]

There is no switch for the DRL.

The inverter/charger (battery charger) does not charge the engine batteries till model year 06.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by Marnewelding

2004 winnie vectra 40 While driving to a race I noticed the voltage starting to drift lower on my dash gauge. Had wife go check the power panel and she confirmed we were under 12.5v. I had her start killing anything 12v she could. Still, Haven't figured out how to turn off the DRL. Found an exit and was able to get off with power down to 9v. I grabbed my meter and and check my batteries and I was reading no incoming voltage from the alternator. When I had purchased this bus the inverter/charger was already bad and the company we bought it from installed a battery charger using the winter block heater Outlet. The generator was running so I did have a charge going to the house batteries. I essentially ran a jumper cable from the house batteries to the chassis batteries it was able to make it to the race. My question is should I start looking at the wiring on the Winnebago side or should it should I go to the engine compartment and start looking at the Freightliner side. I have never been able to find a wiring diagram for anything on the Freightliner side. I don't know if there is a fuse or a fusible link between the alternator and the battery system. Being a retired person I have put on a few more pounds and working in the engine compartment gets a little frustrating. Thanks in advance

I think this one will be a chassis problem. There are two systems, chassis electrical that will be on most cars/trucks and then there is the 12VDc for the RV portion.

Also 110 AC system but not involved here.

The two 12VDC are sometimes connected and then disconnected when we stop to camp, etc.

But for running the normal truck things, look to the chassis cables from the engine alternator to the chassis battery.
Things to keep in mind and be aware?
If you are a print reading guy, here are the drawings for your RV but you will need to sort down to which 40 foot model:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ram/Wiring.htm

Depending on what battery voltage you were reading, a drop to 9 that quickly sounds like a very big short somewhere if all else was normal. Reason for that thought is that both sets of batteries should be connected together and with the engine alternator running, dropping the whole set of BOTH battery groups that far is pretty drastic!

This is where they get connected together when we push a dash switch for boost or AUX as well as when the engine runs. Very important point on out RV and fails often as it arcs every time we start the engine.
Click this drawing to get a better view?


Spot the colored tape codes on the battery cables? They help sort things.

Probably not the current fix as it seems to involve only the chassis side but something to know about----just in case!

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Marnewelding

2004 winnie vectra 40 While driving to a race I noticed the voltage starting to drift lower on my dash gauge. Had wife go check the power panel and she confirmed we were under 12.5v. I had her start killing anything 12v she could. Still, Haven't figured out how to turn off the DRL. Found an exit and was able to get off with power down to 9v. I grabbed my meter and and check my batteries and I was reading no incoming voltage from the alternator. When I had purchased this bus the inverter/charger was already bad and the company we bought it from installed a battery charger using the winter block heater Outlet. The generator was running so I did have a charge going to the house batteries. I essentially ran a jumper cable from the house batteries to the chassis batteries it was able to make it to the race. My question is should I start looking at the wiring on the Winnebago side or should it should I go to the engine compartment and start looking at the Freightliner side. I have never been able to find a wiring diagram for anything on the Freightliner side. I don't know if there is a fuse or a fusible link between the alternator and the battery system. Being a retired person I have put on a few more pounds and working in the engine compartment gets a little frustrating. Thanks in advance

Marnewelding,
Sorry, just got to this post. First off, we have pretty much a sistership to your coach. Ours is an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the CAT C-7 330HP. The length may be a tad different but the chassis is identical. Now, second, there is no BIM in this chassis or coach. Never has been. The charging system(s) in these chassis/coaches is purely mechanical. There is no thinking from any BIM.

Now, there are TWO charging systems in your coach. There is a 12VDC charging system provided by the engine alternator and it, when working correctly, charges both the chassis batteries and the house batteries. Then there is the shore power or 120VAC charging system. We'll talk the 12VDC one first.

In the picture presented above, you will see two solenoids. The one on the right is the smaller one and it's job is to control all 12VDC being applied to the coach's interior. You have at the entry to your coach, on the left side, a vertical set of toggle switches. At the very bottom, the bottom switch or toggle, that is the one that controls that solenoid. It's sometimes known as the "Salesman switch" When that switch/toggle is turned off, you shut down all 12VDC to the interior of the coach.

The second solenoid, the one on the left, is the larger of the two and has TWO duties. The first duty is to link the house batteries to the chassis batteries so that you can augment the cranking power to start your engine, should it be necessary. You have on your dash, on the left side, (should be left but, could be the other side) a "Battery Boost" toggle. When you push that toggle, it sends a signal to that large solenoid and closes it. When that happens, you now link the house batteries to the chassis batteries for additional cranking power.

The second duty of that solenoid is providing for charging of the HOUSE batteries while the engine is running. In that case, that solenoid is IGNITION controlled. When you start your engine, the ignition sends a signal to that same solenoid and energizes it. When that happens, you now link the 12V charging system for the chassis batteries, to the house batteries. And that's how all that works.

Now for the 120AC or shore power charging. When your coach was built, it was fitted with a Dimensions 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger. Those are known as "Quasiwave" or in simpler terms, a MSW or Modified Sign Wave Inverter/Charger. MSW is another story. Anyway, It is that Dimensions 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger's job, to charge your HOUSE BATTERIES only!!! When plugged into shore power, or running the generator, that Inverter/Charger is doing its job of charging the house batteries.

Up until late 2005, Winne and Itasca Diesel owners had many complaints of dead chassis batteries when trying to retrieve their coaches from winter storage even though they were plugged into shore power. Winne took notice of this and finally, in very late 2006 and mainly in 2006, started installing a device called the Trik-L-Start unit. The Trik-L-Start unit is about the size of a half a pack of cigarettes. Contrary to MANY RVer's popular belief, the Trik-L-Start unit IS NOT A BATTERY CHARGER!!!!!!!!!!!! It is installed very close to those two solenoids with only three wires. A green, a yellow and a black wire.

Its job is to monitor the condition of the chassis batteries when you're plugged into shore power. When it sees .5 of a volt difference between the two battery banks, it steps into action. When it does that, it allows a maximum of 5 amps to be diverted from charging the chassis batteries and send those 5 amps to the house batteries. THAT'S how the Trik-L-Start works.

Now, you state that when you purchased this coach from a dealer, it was determined the inverter/charger was bad, correct? And that to remedy this issue, the dealer installed a battery charger to keep the house batteries charged while on shore power, correct? And they plugged that aftermarket battery charger into the BLOCK HEATER outlet, correct? Well, that move, by that dealer, was the stupidest move they could have made. It just shows that they are clueless in analyzing simple electrical problems. And they further showed their ignorance by plugging it into the block heater outlet.

You see, that block heater outlet, is not HOT all the time. It is only hot when you, as the owner, TURNS IT ON, on the ONE PLACE PANEL inside the coach, at the top of it. Otherwise, that outlet is DEAD. And, if you turn it one to energize that battery charger, you also energize the BLOCK HEATER. If that block heater was not unplugged, and you left that outlet energized for a long period of time to keep the house batteries charged, you were burning 11 amps with that block heater, right alongside the amps drawn by the battery charger. NOT GOOD!!!!

What they, those bone heads at the dealer SHOULD have done is analyze the problem with that inverter/charger. If the charging side of that Dimensions inverter/charger went bad, as they have in many of Winnes and Itasca's coaches over the years, the smart thing for them to have done was CHANGE OUT THE INVERTER/CHARGER for a new one like a Magnum or one of many on the market. Some of those Dimensions units went bad in just a few years after the coach was put into service. Some, like ours, lasted over 11 years before the charging side went south. When ours did, I purchased and installed a Magnum 2012ME or, Modified Sign Wave 2000-Watt Inverter/Charger. Basically, it's identical to the Dimensions unit.

One more thing. If you look in your battery compartment, and look up to the upper right corner of the house battery side, you'll see a giant fuse. It's a 300 amp in-line fuse. That fuse is there to protect your house batteries against any form of short. You see, the 4-0 cables from the positive and negative of the house batteries, travel through that fuse and all the way across the coach, over to the last compartment, just behind the duals on the drivers side. There sits your Inverter/charger. They hook directly to that inverter/charger.

I hope this hasn't been too long for you to read. But, it's basically how your particular system works. And, one more thing. Those two solenoids in that picture, are inside a hidden compartment, INSIDE that shore power compartment. They are in the upper right corner. Access to that is made by removing the front wall of that little compartment. There's a dozen screws or so that hold that front panel on. Once removed, you'll see those two solenoids.

By the way, here's one more IMPORTANT piece of information regarding that larger solenoid. As stated, those solenoids are active when the ignition is on. They open, they close, they open, they close for years. Every time your coach is running, that solenoid is active. After so many hundreds and hundreds of opening and closing, the contacts inside that solenoid can get what's called "carbon fowled". When that happens, the solenoid can act quite normally but, it in fact is not allowing any 12VDC to travel through the contacts. When that happens, you get NO 12VDC TO THE HOUSE BATTERIES when the coach engine is running. Yes, you can hear it click open and closed but the contacts are not allowing juice to flow.

When that happens, and it's determined it's a bad solenoid, you can pop onto Amazon and get the same exact solenoid only, if you do, you go for the one with SILVER contacts. It's a tad more expensive but, the silver contacts last a whole heck of a lot longer and are seriously more resistant to carbon fowling. Just some info for ya. Hope this info helped. Good luck.
Scott

[Morich]

I fully agree with what Fireup is saying, except for minor details and it is certainly good to hear from a guy who has dealt with the equipment directly!

Two small points and nothing big to change what he has said! But when looking for the labels, you will find the bigger, metal solenoid is the mode solenoid, while the smaller, which is normally more plastic/bakelight looking will be labeled the battery disconnect relay. Relay and solenoid are pretty close to the same but just different names for different uses. Only a factor when you want to look for info or order parts?

But one small point that may snag you is what that disconnect relay may do as it often does not turn off ALL coach power and that small point can catch you!
Tracing out the wiring past that relay and on into the coach, it is often set up to leave the safety equipment like CO and propane detectors, etc are left powered! Often a small six amp fuse or breaker feeding off the left (hot?) side of the disconnect while all the rest of the power comes off the right which gets disconnected!

They don't want you to come back after storing the RV and find it full of gas without an alram!

But that safety idea is good but with a downside. If we store the RV with the coach battery OFF, we often think the coach battery will not run down but if we wait long enough those small drains can leave us with damaged/dead/ run down coach batteries!

Check your SPECIFIC RV for this hazard before storing and assuming all will work when you comeback!
If there is a green light on the CO detector, try turning off the coach power and see if that light stays on, indicating it is still drawing power to run the coach batteries down if given time!!

Protect those expensive batteries and they will take care of you much better!

[Morich]

I did a quick check of how the 04 Vectra is wired in this area. We've not looked at WHICH 04 Vectra 40 foot you have but they can be assumed to be much the same on this point as many Winnebago do use this.
This is the drawing for the 40AD model to show what I see? Dangerous to "assume" you have the same but the 40Ad has this!

Click this snip to get a better view!


Most of the power for the coach comes from the batteries to one big lug of the solenoid, while the chassis battery sets on the other big lug. This is where they meet when the solenoid operates.
But then the coach power goes on to the left side of the disconnect relay. Following the red line, there is a 14 gauge yellow wire (GJ) which goes AROUND the disconnect and direct to a six amp before going on into the coach.

Wire code can be decoded here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf


Most of the coach power goes through the relay when closed and then to the breakers. Most of the power is cut off with the disconnect but NOT the six amp and that six amp part can run the batteries dead if given time!

[cbeierl]

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

Marnewelding,
..., the Trik-L-Start ...allows a maximum of 5 amps to be diverted from charging the chassis batteries and send those 5 amps to the house batteries. THAT'S how the Trik-L-Start works...

Just a minor correction to Scott's excellent post. The above quote is actually reversed--the Trik-L-Start charges the CHASSIS batteries when it detects that the COACH/HOUSE batteries are being charged, not the other way around.

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Morich

I did a quick check of how the 04 Vectra is wired in this area. We've not looked at WHICH 04 Vectra 40 foot you have but they can be assumed to be much the same on this point as many Winnebago do use this.
This is the drawing for the 40AD model to show what I see? Dangerous to "assume" you have the same but the 40Ad has this!

Click this snip to get a better view!
Attachment 184540

Most of the power for the coach comes from the batteries to one big lug of the solenoid, while the chassis battery sets on the other big lug. This is where they meet when the solenoid operates.
But then the coach power goes on to the left side of the disconnect relay. Following the red line, there is a 14 gauge yellow wire (GJ) which goes AROUND the disconnect and direct to a six amp before going on into the coach.

Wire code can be decoded here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf


Most of the coach power goes through the relay when closed and then to the breakers. Most of the power is cut off with the disconnect but NOT the six amp and that six amp part can run the batteries dead if given time!

Originally Posted by cbeierl

Just a minor correction to Scott's excellent post. The above quote is actually reversed--the Trik-L-Start charges the CHASSIS batteries when it detects that the COACH/HOUSE batteries are being charged, not the other way around.

Both you boys deserve an *atta-boy* for the catches and corrections on my post. What was really a drag when I was typing the response was, I got at least half way through what you see and hit the wrong button and ZAP, the entire post was GONE!!!!!!!!!!!! It was 11:00 last night when I was doing it. Man, talk about being a bit pi...off. Anyway, I still thought I needed to at least try and help the OP in his understanding of his coaches batteries and charging.

Morich,
I guess I've never really learned the true description and or meaning of "Relay vs Solenoid" lingo. I know what a little cube relay looks like and does, the ones with the "85, 86 and all that" on them. But labeling the battery disconnect as a relay just never enters my mind. Thanks, a great deal for that clearing up.

Chris,
Man, you can see that sometimes the dyslexic effect of late-night thinking really takes hold. Yep, I did have it totally backwards and was trying so hard to be accurate. Thanks very much for the correction. What a bone head.
Scott

[Morich]

I've got to admit that the difference in solenoid and relay seems to be what the person building wants as much as a real difference. When it bites me is when I have one in hand and try to order or find one and I use the wrong name!

Is a gas valve a valve or solenoid or a solenoid valve? Seems to be the same story! Maybe it's designed so the guy at the parts counter knows how much respect to give you? I went looking for a vent hood / draft diverter for a water heater and the guy stopped for a minute and said, " you mean a spider for on top of a water heater?"
His group calls them spider because they stand upon long skinny legs!

I get the feeling there are way too many things to drive us all crazy, so being a bone head just makes me feel like I fit in and it's their problem if they have no idea what I mean!

As long as we all keep it in the talking range and avoid the yelling we can get the idea across at some point!

[creativepart]

I just want to add that FireUPs post is really excellent and it was super kind of him to take the time to write it (twice).

It's posts like his that make this forum worth it's weight in gigabytes.

[rgvtexan]

Did I miss understand the OP? The voltmeter on the dash is the chassis battery. The engine alternator was not charging anything.

The battery boost/combiner solenoid may have dropped out from low voltage from the chassis, he was slowly loosing engine voltage. The jumper from the house batteries allowed him to get to the race. I think he needs to troubleshoot the chassis alternator charging circuit.

I have the Freightliner prints. But am unable to post. I can email, if wanted.

The explanations of the chassis charging and boost were excellent!

[rgvtexan]

The difference between a relay and solenoid

https://www.powerelectronictips.com/...ys-part-1-faq/

https://www.powerelectronictips.com/...ys-part-2-faq/

[Morich]

Originally Posted by rgvtexan

The difference between a relay and solenoid

https://www.powerelectronictips.com/...ys-part-1-faq/

https://www.powerelectronictips.com/...ys-part-2-faq/

Sounds like a really good idea of why the different names for doing somewhat similar moves.
One of those things guys in tech schoool love to spend hours talking about!