Big boost for LiPo4 batteries?

[creativepart]

Tesla is switching battery chemistry and it’s to one that RVers know well. Question is will the switch reduces costs for RVers or cause shortages?

Cheaper, longer-life battery packs

Perhaps the most interesting piece of information in the investor presentation was the news that Tesla is switching battery chemistry for all standard-range Models 3 and Y. Until now, most Teslas have used batteries with a nickel cobalt aluminum (NCA) chemistry. But recently it started offering an alternative using an older technology that uses a lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistry. (Most other BEVs use a nickel manganese cobalt chemistry.)

LFP cells are cheaper than NCA or NMC cells and have much longer useful lifetimes, with the trade-off being a lower energy density. However, that might not actually be a downside—although each individual cell holds less energy, LFPs' much less volatile nature means no need to worry about thermal runaway in the event of a crash. And that in turn means an LFP battery pack needs to waste much less volume on cooling and structural protection to keep the cells separated, meaning that energy density at the pack level should compensate. (On the downside, LFP cells don't fare as well when it gets very cold.)

Until now, intellectual property restrictions have kept LFP cells mostly within China. But export restrictions are set to ease next year, and Tesla won approval from the Chinese government to start using LFP batteries in Chinese-made BEVs in 2020. Last month it started asking US customers if they'd accept standard-range cars with LFP packs instead of NCA; now it's making that switch mandatory for all regions.

Tesla hasn't said which company will supply it with LFP cells, but it has existing contracts with CATL, a major source of LFP cells in China.

[gurroz]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Tesla is switching battery chemistry and it’s to one that RVers know well. Question is will the switch reduces costs for RVers or cause shortages?

I installed Ohmmu lithium batteries last year and have been very satisfied. They have been selling Tesla batteries since 2015. Their group 31 battery is 150ah v Battleborn 100ah. You can do a Google search to learn more. I liked the fact they are headquartered in Tempe, AZ about 15 miles from me. Also UL listed.

[Morich]

In battery tech, the flood gates are just now beginning to open with newer and better coming every day it seems. Kind of like the personal electronics field, do we want to buy today and find it obsolete towmorrow or do we wait and see what much better is just around the corner!
What if the battery storage idea is not the best and we find far better wind generators are going to give us much more?

The later design wind panels seem like they will make the big bulky wind generators "old fashioned" in short order!

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by gurroz

I installed Ohmmu lithium batteries last year and have been very satisfied. They have been selling Tesla batteries since 2015. Their group 31 battery is 150ah v Battleborn 100ah. You can do a Google search to learn more. I liked the fact they are headquartered in Tempe, AZ about 15 miles from me. Also UL listed.

Do the batteries have a decent BMS? And do they have a BT interface?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Morich

do we want to buy today and find it obsolete towmorrow or do we wait and see what much better is just around the corner!

There is never a time when something new is not coming. And I always seem to buy just before that new thing appears and makes everything else obsolete. 😃

[DavidM]

In general lithium battery electric cars will compete with RV batteries for available lithium and other critical materials. But I think greater demand for both types of batteries will bring the cost down over time.

I did think it was interesting that Tesla decided that the inherent safety of LiFePO4 batteries offsets the additional protection Tesla has to build into their prior batteries to make them safe. They say that an LiFePO4 battery now has the same energy density once you factor in the safety systems that would have to be built in to existing batteries

It is what RVers and boaters have been saying for a long time- LiFePO4 batteries are inherently safer.

David

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by DavidM

But I think greater demand for both types of batteries will bring the cost down over time.

Over time. But I suspect that in the short term prices may rise or, at least, stop dropping.

[NeilV]

Newer battery tech uses less rare metals than the older ones so any switch is likely going to produce more power from less lithium, etc which should reduce battery cost and weight plus help free up the supply chain.

Good that they are getting rid of the mortar shell sky rocket batteries and going safer. Battery tech has been improving 5% to 10% every year with weight per kWh about half what is was in 2012 and as more companies are supporting electric we will likely see this trend continue with the final goal of a developing a new battery that uses no lithium at all reached sooner.