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Old 09-22-2008, 03:15 PM   #1
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Had the coach batteries go dead first day of a 4 day dry camp at the Dover Race this past weekend. Started the Generator Wed evening after driving for three hours with no problem. Thursday morning not enought power to start the generator, ran the engine for 30 minutes which was enought to get the generator started. Had tp buy two new 12v deep cycle at Sam's Club. My coach is plugged in at home 24/7 an I check the water levels every month or so and add distilled water when required. I suspect that keeping it plugged in keeps the batteries up, however when not plugged in they were not holding the charge. The batteries are 3-4 years old. I was wondering if adding water dilutes the acid to a point that it is harmful to the batteries. Someone told me that adding battery acid instead of water will make them last longer, others have said never to add acid to batteries, it will kill them. Anyone have any info on this.
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Old 09-22-2008, 03:15 PM   #2
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Had the coach batteries go dead first day of a 4 day dry camp at the Dover Race this past weekend. Started the Generator Wed evening after driving for three hours with no problem. Thursday morning not enought power to start the generator, ran the engine for 30 minutes which was enought to get the generator started. Had tp buy two new 12v deep cycle at Sam's Club. My coach is plugged in at home 24/7 an I check the water levels every month or so and add distilled water when required. I suspect that keeping it plugged in keeps the batteries up, however when not plugged in they were not holding the charge. The batteries are 3-4 years old. I was wondering if adding water dilutes the acid to a point that it is harmful to the batteries. Someone told me that adding battery acid instead of water will make them last longer, others have said never to add acid to batteries, it will kill them. Anyone have any info on this.
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:24 PM   #3
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J

My deep cells never seem to last more than 3 years even with tender loving care like bringing them down the basement for the winter with a smart charger.

I just bought a new coach and they told me just to add distilled water.

You were probably due for new ones.
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:51 PM   #4
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Hi, If your batteries are 4 years old, go to Sam's club and buy 2 new batteries. You have really gotten great use out of your old batteries. Best I have ever done is 2 years. But I do a lot of dry camping and I have let them run down to far before recharging. I have learned a lot about batteries this year. Sam's Club is all over the country and so is Walmart. They sell good batteries and will be able to service them or replace with no hassel. Good luck. Al
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:11 PM   #5
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I just checked my log, and I have replaced my batteries on average every 3 years. Sometimes with Sears batteries, sometimes with Costco. Never high end. Records go back 30 years.
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:28 AM   #6
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Two good points to remember...Never add acid to a battery and never let your batteries discharge to low.
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:55 AM   #7
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The acid does not evaporate, just the water.
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:09 AM   #8
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J Stemler:
--snip--I was wondering if adding water dilutes the acid to a point that it is harmful to the batteries. Someone told me that adding battery acid instead of water will make them last longer, others have said never to add acid to batteries, it will kill them. Anyone have any info on this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Like Bob said, the water evaporates. Always add distilled water, never add acid.

Most run-of-the-mill deep cycle batteries average a life span of 3-5 years depending on how many discharge-charge cycles the batteries undergo and how deeply the batteries are discharged.

Premium wet-cell batteries (Rolls, Surette) can last many times longer than the usual crop (Interstate, etc.) of batteries. AGM batteries (Lifeline), never need maintenance and should last roughly twice as long compared to non-premium wet batteries (at twice the cost.)

If you are charging your batteries in storage on a long-term basis, you need to have a three-stage charger that 'knows' how to properly float a charge. A one stage charger (dumb charger) could overcharge the batteries causing the water to boil out. Once the plates are uncovered, the uncovered part of the plates are rendered essentially useless forever.
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Old 09-23-2008, 03:08 PM   #9
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I recommend AGM batteries as they will last longer, discharge deeper and recharge much faster than regular lead acid. But they do cost a lot more. I have 3 Dekka Solar Grp 31's in my coach and love them. No maintenance issues.

You should also upgrade to a 3 stage inverter/charger to properly charge any type of batteries you install. If you don't want to spend that kind of cash, get a battery minder to maintain your batteries during storage.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:36 AM   #10
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Be careful with AGM (Gel) batteries if you have a dimensions 2000 inverter/charger. There is no setting on the inverter for Gel batteries. This was told to us at the GNR at the inverter seminar.
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Old 09-24-2008, 06:40 AM   #11
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I don't believe AGM batteries are Gel batteries.
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:55 AM   #12
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBBEEBOP:
Be careful with AGM (Gel) batteries if you have a dimensions 2000 inverter/charger. There is no setting on the inverter for Gel batteries. This was told to us at the GNR at the inverter seminar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm - I'm almost positive my old Dimensions 2000 had a gel setting.

Dirk is correct - gel chemistry/construction is a little different from AGM (absorbed glass mat.) The significant difference between flooded-cell (traditional)batteries and gel/AGM is the electrolyte solution instead of being a liquid, is a gel solution or impregnated in a mat.

Charging and float requirements are really different from flooded-cell batteries to gel/AGM. The charge/float difference from gel to AGM isn't that significant (in my opinion) and I think you'd be fine with a gel setting if that's all you had.

When we had the boat, I used 4D and 8D gel batteries and they took a lot of abuse and tolerated being charged and floated at non-optimum voltages for years
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:30 AM   #13
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There is a 4-position switch on the side of the inverter that selects large and small battery stacks for either wet or AGM batteries.
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:46 AM   #14
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I was at the same Dimensions seminar at GNR as BBBEEBOP and the speaker stressed their inverters were NOT compatible with AGM batteries. He said to only use regular lead acid and maintenance free batteries.

The Dimensions inverters also aren't compatible with anything that needs true sine wave power like electronics. They will run but they don't like it.
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:49 PM   #15
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My bad....
Just read the manual again.. (standing in corner now)
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:23 AM   #16
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Just replaced my 3 house batteries, they were 5 years old. We seldom drycamp so just went with group 29 Everstarts from Wal-Mart/Sams that cost about $75 each. They had slightly less reserve capacity than the original trojans but were 2/3rds less in cost.

Over the years I've had very good luck with deep cycle batteries even though these only lasted 5 years. The original deepcycle battery in my boat was 9 years old when it went bad.

Two things that will shorten the life of a deepcycle battery:

1. Letting them get low on water. If they get so low that the plates are exposed they probably are toast. Only fill with distilled water.

2. Letting a fully discharged battery sit dead. Deep cycle batteries are designed to hold up with numerious charge/discharge cycles but will die prematurely if allowed to sit dead. A discharged deep cycle battery needs to be recharged as soon a possible.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:47 AM   #17
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I installed 4 life line AGM 6 volt batteries 15 months ago. I did not replace the Dimensions inverter. I did set it to "sealed lead acid battery more than 400 AH"

Right or wrong the charging specs placarded on the life line batteries match the specs listed in my maintenance manual for the Dimensions charger when set on sealed type batteries. Maybe my solar panels are part of the equation also but the batteries are still going strong. Maybe time will tell?

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Old 09-27-2008, 05:38 AM   #18
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Do the PD92XX series have a setting for gel/agm cells?
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:40 PM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do the PD92XX series have a setting for gel/agm cells? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just emailed progressive Dynamics on that same question and there is no setting for AGM/Gell. Thet do say that the 9200 series are safe for them.
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:50 PM   #20
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To clarify;

Flooded lead acid batteries are just that, the lead plates are completely submerged in the water/acid bath. If too much charge current is applied, the water starts to boil out of the solution. Actually it doesn't boil, it out-gases. The Hydrogen is liberated from the water and the Oxygen is used up to form Lead Oxide. In the process, the acid becomes stronger. That's why we use a Hygrometer, to see how strong the acid solution is. There are sealed maintenance free flooded batteries that use a recombinant method to control the out-gassing. They usually operate under a slight pressure and can easily be overcharged.

Gel Cell lead acid batteries are similar to flooded but the water/acid is stabilized with a gelling material. The charge current must be limited so that out-gassing is well controlled, hence the differences in charge voltages. Otherwise, the gas bubbles that form at the plate become too numerous. These are usually sealed and use the same recombinant methods.

AGM or Absorbed Glass Mat have the mats saturated with liquid acid/water to about 98% of their capacity to hold the liquid. Therefore there is no free liquid sloshing around to spill out and the plates are always covered. They can be charged at much higher rates than either of the other two types. There is no limit on the out-gassing because there is no gel or liquid bath that would allow bubbles to be a problem. The Hydrogen can escape from the plate surface through the 2% of mat that is left. They are sealed and recombinant to reabsorb the Hydrogen.

Generally speaking, an AGM can be treated like a flooded since the chemistry is the same and there is almost no limit on charge current. The Concord AGMs are listed at C * 10 as a charge limit if battery temperature is monitored. That means that two 220 Amp./Hr. 6V batteries in series for 12 Volts could accept a charge of 2200 Amps. This is also why the voltage specifications for bulk charge are usually higher for AGM. It takes a higher voltage to get these higher currents but since most converters and inverter/chargers can only output about 1/20 or less of this current, the higher voltage isn't required and there is no problem. Float voltage is the same.

I have 4ea. GPL-4 6 Volt AGMs connected series/parallel for 12 Volts at 440 Amp./Hr. with two ProSine 2000 inverter/chargers connected to charge at 100 Amps. each. When discharged to 50%, this arrangement allows the batteries to be recharged to 90% in as little as one hour. This would be way too much for Gel and probably too much for flooded batteries of similar size.

Another advantage of AGM is the fact that everything is held snuggly together inside. The plates are separated by the mats then squeezed together and inserted into the case. Then the correct quantity of liquid is poured in. This makes for a very rugged battery and also prevents Lead Oxide from falling to the bottom and shorting out the plates. Hence, no space has to be left at the bottom like flooded and more plate can be installed. That's why AGMs are usually heaver for the same outside dimensions.

I sure wish I had the height to install GPL-6s next go around. Then I'd have 660 Amp./Hr. Now if solar panel prices get down to around $1.00 / Watt......
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