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Old 03-01-2021, 12:22 PM   #1
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Another Battery Charging Question?

OK here goes 2004 Winnebago Brave 34D 8.1L W22. I have read several threads that seem to indicate that when the engine is running that the alternator will not only charge chassis battery but will send power to the solenoid and connect the chassis battery to the house batteries.

Yet when I look at the wiring diagram Sheet 5 P/N 144615 i trace the wire LR all they back to the battery boost switch and do not see any rely or other connection that would send power to engage solenoid when engine is running. Am I missing something here?

Note the solenoid does work fine if I press it do get a power transfer, just don't get any charge from chassis battery when running.

Dean
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Old 03-01-2021, 01:35 PM   #2
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Dean-

Automotive Wiring Diagram, sheet 2, zone D-17, circuit "KE" is an ignition-switched 12V supply circuit.

Typically, when you don't see 12V on "LR" when the ignition is on, the BATTERY BOOST switch is not in the correct position.

All the diagrams for your coach are here.

Other useful Winnebago information available here.
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Old 03-01-2021, 02:33 PM   #3
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To do a bit of checking? You are saying the solenoid pulls up and connects the two battery strings together when you push the "boost or "aux" switch but not when just starting/running the engine?

If I'm reading what you are saying right, I fully agree with Mark above on where to go for the problem, except for the detail that the switch is often a momentary switch and should not get in the wrong position to stay once released???

So is your boost switch momentary or snap action to allow staying in the wrong position?

The mode/ boost/ aux switch does seem to be a place to look but is it a bad switch or is the power going into that switch missing?

Have you found the "magic decoder list" for Winnebago wiring here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf
Idea is that the wires are ID'd so we can find the code and find what that wire goes from and to.

It also looks like wire KE also feeds the rear monitor and hot water heater (HWH) so asking if those are also out might tell you something quicker than digging the switch out to check it on the backside?

But then I've also come up with a different question ab out what Mark has found! I agree that he has spotted the correct switch and most likely the right problem but what led him to that info on the boost switch on Sheet 2 Frame 3, rather than the first boost switch on Sheet 1 Frame 3 which seems to give different info?

I'm pretty sure it is right but where do we find which we should expect to use? I'm missing something somewhere!!
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1 View Post
Dean-

Automotive Wiring Diagram, sheet 2, zone D-17, circuit "KE" is an ignition-switched 12V supply circuit.

Typically, when you don't see 12V on "LR" when the ignition is on, the BATTERY BOOST switch is not in the correct position.

All the diagrams for your coach are here.

Other useful Winnebago information available here.
As Mark indicated, if you look at the upper right corner of page 7 (location D-17) of the Automotive Wiring Diagram for your coach you will see the Battery Boost switch with wires KE, LR, and LS attached. When the switch is in its normal position it connects KE with LR. When the switch is pressed to its momentary position it connects LS with LR.

Looking for KE, LR, and LS in the Wiring Identification Guide shows the following:
KE / 14 YEL RUN ONLY POWER SOURCE GENERAL PURPOSE(RELAY TRIGGER, REAR AUTO HTR,DRL,MONITOR,ETC

LR / 14 YEL BATTERY MODE SWITCH (AUX START SWITCH) BATTERY MODE SOLENOID (AUX START SOLENOID)

LS / 12 YEL OVERCURRENT PROTECTION 20A BREAKER TYPICAL,COACH FEED GENERAL PURPOSE(BATTERY MODE, RADIO POWER,BATTERY CONDITION
So, in its normal position the wire KE should be supplying power to the solenoid whenever the engine is running--if it's not you'll need to chase that issue back to the chassis. Page 3 of the Front End Wiring Installation for your coach should identify the fuse/breaker supplying power for KE.

When the Battery Boost switch is pressed into its momentary position the wire LS should be supplying power to the solenoid.
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morich View Post
...
But then I've also come up with a different question ab out what Mark has found! I agree that he has spotted the correct switch and most likely the right problem but what led him to that info on the boost switch on Sheet 2 Frame 3, rather than the first boost switch on Sheet 1 Frame 3 which seems to give different info?

I'm pretty sure it is right but where do we find which we should expect to use? I'm missing something somewhere!!
It looks like the first reference is for the Ford chassis, the 2nd is for the Workhorse chassis, and the 3rd one (on page 9 of the pdf) is for the Workhorse diesel chassis!

I don't understand the DDC connection (rather than KE) on the Ford diagram, however, since that's
DDC / 14 YEL REAR AUTO HEATER RELAY (SWITCHED POWER) REAR AUTO HEATER SWITCH (COMMON TERMINAL)
and the wire KE does exist on the Ford chassis. I suspect an error in the diagram.
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbeierl View Post
As Mark indicated, if you look at the upper right corner of page 7 (location D-17) of the Automotive Wiring Diagram for your coach you will see the Battery Boost switch with wires KE, LR, and LS attached. When the switch is in its normal position it connects KE with LR. When the switch is pressed to its momentary position it connects LS with LR.

Looking for KE, LR, and LS in the Wiring Identification Guide shows the following:
KE / 14 YEL RUN ONLY POWER SOURCE GENERAL PURPOSE(RELAY TRIGGER, REAR AUTO HTR,DRL,MONITOR,ETC

LR / 14 YEL BATTERY MODE SWITCH (AUX START SWITCH) BATTERY MODE SOLENOID (AUX START SOLENOID)

LS / 12 YEL OVERCURRENT PROTECTION 20A BREAKER TYPICAL,COACH FEED GENERAL PURPOSE(BATTERY MODE, RADIO POWER,BATTERY CONDITION
So, in its normal position the wire KE should be supplying power to the solenoid whenever the engine is running--if it's not you'll need to chase that issue back to the chassis. Page 3 of the Front End Wiring Installation for your coach should identify the fuse/breaker supplying power for KE.

When the Battery Boost switch is pressed into its momentary position the wire LS should be supplying power to the solenoid.
I think this part is what we can all agree on as a fairly straightforward part of the question but what I was asking was how we got to this part of the drawings on sheet two when the boost switch is also shown on sheet one with different info and different wires?
I agree that it is the right answer but how did we get there? The boost switch info on sheet one seems to show it involves a heater??? Is there an option tag or list which changes the use of the boost switch and I may have missed it?
Can somebody explain the use or reason for the difference in info on the boost switch at sheet one versus sheet two? Just noticing some pitfalls in my understanding of their drawings and trying to work out what I'm missing.
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:45 PM   #7
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Okay, got it now, I failed to look for different chassis and with the different wire code, I missed looking for that detail.
Thanks.

I thought it was right but did not see how to get there!
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:18 PM   #8
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Richard
you read correct the solenoid engages when Aux is pressed but not when engine running.
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:19 PM   #9
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Sheet 2 Frame 3 is my setup
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:24 PM   #10
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So from the description and your great explanation KE is only live when running, not when ignition on but not running so i will check my cig lighter, monitor which should be on when running because KE feeds them as well. Digging deep.
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Old 03-08-2021, 06:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGMA12 View Post
OK here goes 2004 Winnebago Brave 34D 8.1L W22. I have read several threads that seem to indicate that when the engine is running that the alternator will not only charge chassis battery but will send power to the solenoid and connect the chassis battery to the house batteries.

Yet when I look at the wiring diagram Sheet 5 P/N 144615 i trace the wire LR all they back to the battery boost switch and do not see any rely or other connection that would send power to engage solenoid when engine is running. Am I missing something here?

Note the solenoid does work fine if I press it do get a power transfer, just don't get any charge from chassis battery when running.

Dean

More accurately stated is that eventually it will start charging the house batteries. The deep cycle house batteries will not be at the same level of discharge as the engine battery so they will switch over to charge each bank somewhat separately. I believe they call it an isolator solenoid which is in addition to the auxiliary boost solenoid and the latching solenoid for storage.


Unfortunately I can't seem to open the Winnebago Owners Tools tonight to check the parts listings showing all the solenoids.
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Old 03-08-2021, 06:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGMA12 View Post
So from the description and your great explanation KE is only live when running, not when ignition on but not running so i will check my cig lighter, monitor which should be on when running because KE feeds them as well. Digging deep.
I would say this is correct, even though I have not got hands on the chassis part of the drawing to see where the power actually comes in but then it would make some pretty good sense to only have it connect when the alternator is actually putting out power. No need to connect them together if the start battery is not getting the incoming power.
I have seen it called a "run only" connection but if that actually means "running" versus the key being turned to accessories, I've not actually seen. Consider that a guess until I find different?

It's a pretty simple solenoid that will operate when battery is found on the control lead and whether it charges the coach first or start battery first will depend on which is lower. Battery voltage is what controls the current and it will always move from the higher potential to the lower, much like water when various containers are connected together. But it is a slow process and we don't get a lot of movement when the difference in potential is so little.
If we connected a 12.5 volt start battery to a coach battery that had been run down to 12.0, there is only a half volt difference and not much charging is done but when we add in the alternator voltage of 14+ when the engine is running above idle, we get somewhat more and how is spreads out between the various batteries connected together depends on lots of small points like condition of the batteries and how well the cables, etc. pass the current.

Since it takes so long to fully recharge a battery from some point like 11 volts to fully charged, we can easily get into fooling ourselves if we only look at the voltage of the battery.

A frequent problem for new fishermen who take a set of batteries out and troll all day to nearly kill the batteries and then connect it to the truck and drive an hour back home and take a look at all the batteries showing 13.5 and they think they are in super shape. Really good batteries really charged up super!!

Until they look the next day when the surface charge has leveled off and they may see the trolling motor batteries are back down to 11 volts. What happened? The first cell is what they tested the voltage on and after it fed over into the other five, there was not really that much charge put in on the one hour drive home!
It's a tricky thing but we know that we may need to charge a battery overnight using a ten amp charger but we can fool ourselves into thinking we can get it done in an hour of driving?
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Old 03-08-2021, 06:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGMA12 View Post
OK here goes 2004 Winnebago Brave 34D 8.1L W22. I have read several threads that seem to indicate that when the engine is running that the alternator will not only charge chassis battery but will send power to the solenoid and connect the chassis battery to the house batteries.

Yet when I look at the wiring diagram Sheet 5 P/N 144615 i trace the wire LR all they back to the battery boost switch and do not see any rely or other connection that would send power to engage solenoid when engine is running. Am I missing something here?

Note the solenoid does work fine if I press it do get a power transfer, just don't get any charge from chassis battery when running.

Dean

Without going into great detail, experience has taught me the the Battery Mode Solenoid is not working correctly. I have replaced a couple of these in different coaches when I had the symptoms you describe with charging. Hope this helps.
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Old 03-08-2021, 07:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TGMA12 View Post
So from the description and your great explanation KE is only live when running, not when ignition on but not running so i will check my cig lighter, monitor which should be on when running because KE feeds them as well. Digging deep.
You might also open up the dash and make sure that wire KE is actually connected to the battery boost switch (perhaps it fell off?). While you're there you can see if it's powered when the engine is running.
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Old 03-08-2021, 07:47 PM   #15
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Without going into great detail, experience has taught me the the Battery Mode Solenoid is not working correctly. I have replaced a couple of these in different coaches when I had the symptoms you describe with charging. Hope this helps.
I'd agree with this in general, but the OP has stated that manually activating the battery boost switch DOES work, so that would imply that the solenoid is OK in this case and that the problem must lie in the KE power to the battery boost switch (or the internals of the switch itself).
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Old 03-08-2021, 08:00 PM   #16
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Difference in finding a good Rv repair place and just having a parts changer do the work!
Some will first replace the things they think "might " cause the problem and charge you for each mistake they make in guessing!
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Old 03-09-2021, 04:13 AM   #17
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There's a bit of explanation in post #12 that is not correct. Below is how it works. For a more thorough explanation, see Winnebago Service Tip 2017-07 "Evolution of Battery Management," link here.

1) When the "LR" signal to the solenoid goes from 0 to 12V, the solenoid closes and the two battery banks are connected together; they charge as one bank of batteries. So, the question is what provides the "LR" signal?

2) For many Winnebago models, including the OP's, there is no logic circuit that surveys battery and/or charging voltages, or makes decisions on time delays. Instead, "LR" comes from an ignition-on/engine-running 12V source ("KE") or from the house battery bank ("LS"). Which one depends on the position of the BATTERY BOOST switch.

3) For other Winnebago models, there may be a logic circuit. It may go by names such as "Battery Isolation Manager," "Bi-directional Isolation Relay Delay," and the like. Even with these circuits, if they incorporate a solenoid that connects the battery bank leads, the two battery banks will charge as one bank, using whatever charge sources are available.
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Old 03-09-2021, 11:11 AM   #18
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Good Morning I have an older pusher and had this issue. When I purchased I could only charge batteries from 120 volt. I happened across this topic and read deeper. I made a few posts and somebody helped me with the wiring manual. The suggestion I was told was replace the solenoid. Took photos and found one on amazon. Hooked it up and now the alternator puts power to the house batteries. This is a common failed part. It has big wires going to it. I can tell you that the mom switch worked before I replace this solenoid, but now charges the battery. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 is what I purchased for my MotorHome. I hope this helps.
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