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Old 05-14-2021, 01:57 PM   #1
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Adding a solar system

Hello, newbie here, 2015 Itasca Viva 23L. I'm planning on adding a solar system and here is the suggestion I got from our local Winnie sales and service center.

Solar Kit; Solar Elite; Solar Charging System; 380 Watt Solar (Two 190 Watt Panels)/ 18.6 Amp Charging Current; Monocrystalline; 59.1 Inch Length x 26.3 Inch Width x 1.58 Inch Thickness; Screw Mount; 30 Amp PWM Digital Controller With Bluetooth/ Inverter Charger Remote; 2000 Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter; With Mounting Hardware/ 25 Foot Length MC4 Red #10 Output Cable/ 25 Foot Length MC4 Black #10 Output Cable/ DC Inverter Install Kit. 2 battle born 100 AH 12v LiFePO4 batteries.

My reason for adding is that we currently have 1 AGM house battery and our gas powered generator is really too loud. We like to boondock occasionally and would like to limit using the generator to when we need the AC. our fridge is 3 way so I can run that on propane.

Would appreciate any recommendations/advice before I pull the trigger on this.

Also one question that I haven't found an answer to online. Can I still use the battery booster switch in the cab if the chassis battery is too weak to start?

Thanks in advance!
John
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Old 05-14-2021, 03:54 PM   #2
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Are you installing the system yourself or is the dealer doing it. If the dealer is doing it, the package is ok, but I would make a few improvements:

Get them to wire the two panels in series which minimizes voltage drop and use a Renogy MPPT controller which can deal with the higher voltage and efficiently convert it to what the batteries need.

If you are doing it yourself, all of the components above can be purchased at 1/2 to 1/3 the price on Amazon. For example 200 watt panels are about $200.

The Battleborn batteries might work with the booster switch. It depends on how much current your chassis will require to start as BB's battery manager limits the max current from each battery to 200 amps for 30 seconds, more for shorter periods.

David
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Old 05-15-2021, 06:02 AM   #3
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Thanks David, I'm going to have the service center install it, it is a little beyond what I'm comfortable with. Good idea on the controller, i'll have them add that to the package.Thakns for the info!

John
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Old 05-15-2021, 07:14 AM   #4
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Hi John,
Sounds like you’ve got a great plan.
If you haven’t made a final decision on roof mounting 380 watts, the cost of soft foldable panels has come way down, under $200 for 110w. We’re ordering two of them to connect in series, allowing us to park our rig in the shade and place the small panels up to 50ft away oriented to the sun. Wiring them up through SAE sidewall port to Victron 100/30 Bluetooth mppt. Don’t know how it’s all gonna work out, but this setup should collect almost 50% more amps over 5 hours of the same wattage of panels on the roof. The bonus is it’s easy to diy the project. We can always add panels to roof later if we need em. Also, Battle Borns are the Rolls Royce of batteries. We’re very happy with our Bigbattery LiFePo4. Half the price of Battle Born per AH. And comes with built-in Anderson terminals internal cutoff switch, led voltage display, and web handle, making it easy to pull the plug and carry the 35lb battery indoors during winter.

Good luck on your upgrade.
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Old 05-15-2021, 07:54 AM   #5
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This is a GoPower solar package sold on Amazon for $2,700. Not including the BattleBorn batteries. So, with these added in the “cost” is about $4,500 for the equipment.

https://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-Comp.../dp/B0015398PE

How much is your dealer going to charge you for this plus installation?

For a great many of us, we wouldn’t trust most RV dealers to do this kind of work.

Also, as a relatively new RV owner are you sure you want to invest this much money into this 2015 RV that you’ve only used a few times? I read that you are planning a 3-week trip this summer and that you want more capability to dry camp. But you could take some baby steps at a much lower cost that would give you time to garner much more experience before adding $6,000 to $8,000 worth of gear on a used motorhome.

Just replacing your single AGM battery with two BB LiPo batteries would be a big improvement for your trip.
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Old 05-15-2021, 08:14 AM   #6
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Let me add to my comments above,

With a RV fridge what is your need for a 2000w inverter? Just to run a microwave?

I ask because we have a similar setup in our RV (from the factory) and we find that it’s better for us to run the generator when during meal prep. The microwave puts so much strain on the inverter that it can easily trip the low voltage cutoff if any thing else is running on the inverter at the same time.

We have 300-watts of solar, 400 amp hours of AGM batteries and a 2000w inverter. BUT we have a residential fridge. We can dry camp / boondock easily but only by running the generator ~3-hrs a day... or if we’re moving to a new location by driving the RV to charge the batteries. But this is because our residential fridge uses so much 110vAC power. You don’t have that need.

Extra battery power storage would be a help to you, yes. And solar panels and a big inverter would be nice but really not all that necessary with your RV fridge.
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Old 05-15-2021, 09:24 AM   #7
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Adding to my comments:
Our compressor fridge uses 25-30 AH per day. We’ve gone 3 days with no recharging, not using our 2,000w inverter/charger. Given sunny conditions we should be able gather more than 30Ah daily when we get our portable panels. Also, if we sell our rig, we can keep the panels and the mppt. We only need to use generator if we have been using ac power for tv and cpap. Our microwave runs just fine off the inverter (3,000w surge). If cost were the biggest concern, and if John thinks he might swap out his coach in a couple of years, he could meet all of his power needs with a couple of AGMs and a couple of portable panels plus mppt all for under $1,000, and do the install himself. Us MM folks don’t have the bucks that you biggo riggo people have.
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Old 05-15-2021, 09:27 AM   #8
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Now that Creativepart has broached the subject, let me jump in. Assuming "RV Fridge" means an absorption type that can run on propane, the amp hours used daily are fairly small.

When I had my very simple 20' T/T with almost non existent parasitic loads, I would use about 15 amp hours daily. Now that I have a new Class A, that jumps to about 35, mostly due to an extra 15 amp hours of parasitic load to run the touch screen display and other techno BS that RV builders think we want.

BTW, parasitic loads to me are those that you can't shut off. My Thor Axis uses about 12 amp hours daily just to run its touch screen display and the relay node that controls everything. The water heater, Winegard Connect 2 and others make up the rest.

You may be somewhere in between, say 25 amp hours daily DC usage. I don't know the capacity of your single AGM, but assuming it is a Group 27, that is about 75 amp hours of capacity. You shouldn't run it down more than about 50% routinely for best life. So you can only camp for about a day and a half without recharging.

So the first thing you should do is to upgrade your single AGM to two Group 31 AGMs for a total of 200 amp hours of capacity. Renogy and WindyNation make good, inexpensive G31 AGMs for about $200 each on Amazon. Then wire the two in series. Hopefully your existing battery compartment will hold two of them, most will

With only an investment of about $400 you can now camp for 4 nights straight without worrying about recharging. Then if you go home or drive to another campsite 3-4 hours away you should have them charged up and ready to go for another 4 nights when you get there.

Lithium batteries, solar panels, and large inverters have their place. But I don't think they are right for you as Creativepart points out above.

David
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Old 05-15-2021, 11:34 AM   #9
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I agree with some of the others who've responded, but not 100% with any one of them.

1. I wouldn't jump in to a multi-thousand dollar solar install without more experience with your RV and more knowledge about solar. Before you go the multi-thousand dollar route, read every thread you can find on Winnieowners and it's sister site, IRV2.com and check out Will Prowse's RV solar videos:

https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse/search?query=rv

In a very short time, you'll be knowledgeable enough to sort things out.

2. If you do decide to add solar, I would never have the dealer do it. I'd find a good, independent mobile tech or shop. After educating yourself on solar, you'll be able to tell if they know their stuff by talking to them.

3. I think LiFePO4 batteries are overkill at this point. They're excellent for a lot of reasons but they're a big up front investment. For now, I'd suggest adding a second, matching AGM battery, or better yet, install two 6V golf cart batteries (in series) from Costco or Sam's Club. I've used them for years with good results. They're only about $100 each.

4. Follow Marine359's advice and get some portable panels. Even if you do go the roof-mounted route at some point, they'll be useful for supplemental power, especially when you're parked in the shade. There are some pretty good deals right now. You'll want a minimum of 100w, ideally 200w.

https://www.renogy.com/200-watt-12-v...QaAvHgEALw_wcB

https://www.renogy.com/100-watt-12-v...UaAgAiEALw_wcB

5. Forget the inverter, you don't need it now. You'll just run your batteries down. We camped for years without shore power, first with 100w of solar and then with 200w, two 6v golf cart batteries and a portable Honda 200w generator. When you're boondocking, think camping, not RVing. Only use the lights you need, enjoy nature, not TV and you'll be fine. We'd run our generator for a few minutes to run the microwave or, occasionally to recharge our batteries if the weather was bad. Our Honda was quiet but we still only ran it for short periods of time.

6. Here's the cost of my recommendations:

Golf Cart Batteries - $200 (a second AGM would cost about the same)
Portable Solar Panels - 100w/$260 - 200w/$400
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Old 05-15-2021, 11:37 AM   #10
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I added a second AGM battery and installed a solar system with panels on the roof using a rack I built and then adding the roof cap and running the wiring through the camper and installing a MPPT charge controller and battery temp monitor. Most of my time was spent building the rack and attaching it securely to the roof and running the heavy gauge wiring from the controller to the batteries. It is why I bought a 2021 Navion with the wiring already in place.

The panels you plan to install have a 40mm thickness and so the feet for them would be ordered based on this specification. VHB tape works very well but a dealer is likely to instead screw the feet down and then cover everything with sealant.

At least for our Navion the Winnebago factory installation of the Zamp kit left a lot to be desired. The 100W panels were not placed properly and the installer did not shorten the Zamp provided cables so as to maximize current to the controller.

A dealer would be my very last choice for doing anything with regard to solar. First choice would be a business that specializes in RV solar installations. I would also buy the parts to be sure of what components are used and a good source is amsolar.com.

I bought my last two panels through Home Depot and newegg.com and the panels were drop shipped from Renogy and Grape to my house. I paid $218 for the 190W Grape panel and $115 for a 100W Renogy panel in December of last year.

For power you can buy a second AGM battery but for optimum results I would buy two lithium phosphate batteries. Two group 31 AGM provide roughly 100 Ah of usable capacity and two two lithium phosphate batteries provide double that capacity. Whatever you choose you want both batteries to be the same and not mix a flooded lead acid with an AGM one.

I also found after changing out the batteries on my Navion that the recharge time with the solor panels or with generator was reduced by 75%. Instead of running the generator more than 3 hours to get the SOC restored from 50% I was able to do this in less than 1 hour.Newer inverters and solar charge controllers have a lithium setting to maximize charging of lithium batteries.

A lot depends on how you use your RV. With my last camper which had a 3-way fridge our power consumption was easily handled with two group 31 size AGM batteries and they were recharged with two 100W solar panels and from the engine alternator and I did not even have a generator on the RV and it was very seldom missed. Now our Navion has a electric only fridge and an induction burner for cooking and so our electrical demands are a magnitude greater.

It also depends on how long you plan to keep this RV. A pair of lithium batteries will save money in the long run as they have a much greater charge cycles before needing to be retired. A problem with a single 12V battery is that one is stuck with auto batteries that are not deep discharge type as one can find with 6V batteries. The auto batteries are not designed for deep discharging through an inverter but rather to start a motor and then to power low amp electronics.
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Old 05-15-2021, 01:20 PM   #11
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I agree with Bob that big solar and LiFePo4 are overkill for John at this time. For under $400 he can get two high quality AGMs, and have 100AH useable, enough for 3 days boondocking based on how he is equipped. Once he gets some time in his rig and decides to keep it, he can do small solar without paying anybody. Fact is, we hardly ever use our inverter. We got it because we wanted a great lithium charger (up to 100a) With power share and Built-in transfer switch. If John later decides to go lithium, he can easily sell the AGMs for good bucks. If John is convinced solar is a must, Victron Bluetooth 75/15 mppt only $120 on Amazon. SAE port and wire is cheap. He’d also need a fuse between cc and battery. But, this install can be done blindfolded in less than an hour by untalented old diy’ers (like me) without climbing on the roof. Here’s the link to the foldable panels I ordered direct from Lensolar: https://www.lensunsolar.com/Products...product_id=479
Gasoline has doubled in price over the last six months. Save your money, you’ll need it for gas. If John wants to get more charge when driving he can always diy install a dc/dc charger.
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Old 05-15-2021, 02:27 PM   #12
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So the first thing you should do is to upgrade your single AGM to two Group 31 AGMs for a total of 200 amp hours of capacity. Renogy and WindyNation make good, inexpensive G31 AGMs for about $200 each on Amazon. Then wire the two in series.
Whoa David! You misspoke!!!

You would wire the two 12v batteries in Parallel - not in Series.
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Old 05-15-2021, 03:11 PM   #13
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Wow this forum really has a wealth of knowledge!

I know my Viva is 6 years old but it is a very young 6. It only had a little over 9K miles on it when we got it and i've only added ~3800 miles. It has been kept indoors the majority of the its life and it looks brand new. I feel pretty certain that we will be keeping it a long time.

In addition to the microwave I do have to work sometimes when on the road so I will have a laptop and another monitor, a couple cell phone chargers, coffeemaker and toaster oven. We also might watch a dvd or stream a video from a tablet if we have a couple days of rain in a row like on our last trip.

The dealer/service center quoted $645 to install and said i was free to buy the components on my own and they would install. They actually sent me a link for the battle born where i could buy them for less than what their supplier was charging. They have an outstanding reputation and really are more of a service center and sell towable Winnebagos as well.

Perhaps what they are proposing is overkill, you've given me a lot to think about.

I'll do a little more research before moving forward, including continuing to read this forum.

Thanks for all of the replies.
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Old 05-15-2021, 04:11 PM   #14
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That is a pretty good price to install all of that stuff, particularly since you can buy your own components and they will install it. I have seen similar work priced in the thousands for installation alone plus markups on all equipment.

And yes I misspoke above, parallel it is when wiring two 12V batteries together.

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Old 05-15-2021, 05:03 PM   #15
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Wow this forum really has a wealth of knowledge!

I know my Viva is 6 years old but it is a very young 6. It only had a little over 9K miles on it when we got it and i've only added ~3800 miles. It has been kept indoors the majority of the its life and it looks brand new. I feel pretty certain that we will be keeping it a long time.

In addition to the microwave I do have to work sometimes when on the road so I will have a laptop and another monitor, a couple cell phone chargers, coffeemaker and toaster oven. We also might watch a dvd or stream a video from a tablet if we have a couple days of rain in a row like on our last trip.

The dealer/service center quoted $645 to install and said i was free to buy the components on my own and they would install. They actually sent me a link for the battle born where i could buy them for less than what their supplier was charging. They have an outstanding reputation and really are more of a service center and sell towable Winnebagos as well.

Perhaps what they are proposing is overkill, you've given me a lot to think about.

I'll do a little more research before moving forward, including continuing to read this forum.

Thanks for all of the replies.
The system you have spec'd out isn't overkill, we just want you to understand your needs and the options out there. And, as previously stated the $645 installation cost is a good price.

The only component I wonder about is a pwm controller instead of an mppt controller but apparently Go Power doesn't make one. The included inverter/charger is a quality unit and retails for $1,331. The kit's retail price is $2,703, leaving the net cost of the solar panels, controller, etc. at about $1,332.

There are similar kits, without the inverter but with an mppt controller for less.

If you're going to use your TT as you described, LiFePO4 is a good way to go. The upfront cost is expensive but the life-cycle cost is less. Plus, if you decide to sell your rig and get something else, you can take them with you. You can also take the solar but it's a bit more difficult to remove.
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Old 05-15-2021, 05:34 PM   #16
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Some very knowledgeable people have responded to your post, so I am not sure that I can add much of value. However I do have a couple of points to make.

1) With an absorption fridge I am not sure you will need Lithium batteries and you might be just as well served by using either some golf cart or high AH AGM batteries. Your refrigerator will not use much power and with 380 watts of solar you probably could replace the power you use during any reasonably sunny day.

If, however, you plan to use any other high consumption devices such as your microwave or other electric cooking devices you might need the extra power.

2) I did not see any indication of a Battery Monitor in your list and it would certainly be helpful to know what your actual daily use of power was. A BM would tell you how much power you were using at any time and the State Of Charge (SOC) of your battery bank, and that is helpful in planning any subsequent changes.

3) I also did not see any mention of a system to charge the Lithium batteries. Most people recommend either a BIM or DC-DC Charger to protect your alternator, although some say that modern alternators are smart enough to protect themselves. I opted for safety and installed a DC-DC Charger, and you should think about whether or not you want to do that.

4) If it were me I would take a staged approach. I would install the solar panels and solar controller and the BM, but leave the wet cells to see if your power needs warranted upgrading your batteries. That would only cost you perhaps 1/3 of the total Lithium upgrade cost and you could always add the rest if you found you needed the extra power.

5) One last comment. 380 watts of solar is good, but a 30 amp solar controller should be able to handle more, and you might want increase the solar input to 450 watts. 70 watts more of solar does not sound like much (about an extra 18%), but every bit helps and the cost of 450 watts might be almost the same as for 380 watts.

Alternately you might want to use an MPPT solar controller instead of a PWM as it will convert more of your solar power to battery charge. The PWM solar controllers I am familiar with grab the needed voltage (14.6 volts for BB batteries) and discard the remaining power while the MPPT solar controller will use all of the voltage and thus provide a bit more charging current. That is about an extra 23% and thus use of an MPPT solar controller probably means that you can get the about the same power from your 380 watts of solar as you could with a PWM and 450 watts (23% more vs 18% more).

This last part is my understanding of the difference between PWM and MPPT solar controllers. If this is wrong I am sure someone on this thread will correct my input, and rightly so.
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Old 05-15-2021, 05:39 PM   #17
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Plus, if you decide to sell your rig and get something else, you can take them with you. You can also take the solar but it's a bit more difficult to remove.
True, but the cost of Lithium batteries is dropping so quickly that you might end up getting more for your trade with the batteries than the cost of a new install. Or at least come close and get new technology. Many of the newer Lithium batteries that I have looked at have a built in bluetooth connection meaning that you can determine the SOC of your batteries without having to add a BM system and thus save $200 (perhaps $350 including installation).
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Old 05-15-2021, 07:07 PM   #18
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Bluetooth negative shunt BM only $130 and easy to wire it in when you get new batteries.
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Old 05-15-2021, 07:54 PM   #19
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Bluetooth negative shunt BM only $130 and easy to wire it in when you get new batteries.
Yes. But I have seen reviews that say the Bluetooth range of that unit is only about 6 feet, which would limit its usefulness.
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Old 05-16-2021, 03:59 AM   #20
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Why do you need more than 6ft? A wired only BM (remote display) has zero range. I don’t know what the max range for the Victron is, but I can pair with it while sitting in my pickup truck, or anywhere in the trailer. And, once initially paired, it automatically re-pairs when you restart the app. The Xantrex Bluetooth is the real PITA, because it will not automatically re-pair if you close the app or move out of range.
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