AC Power upgrades for 2018 Winnebago View?

[Hammerhead]

I recently purchased a new 2018 Winnebago View RV that has:

Norcold DC 0061R all electric refrigerator

(2) NAPA 12v deep cycle 65 amp/hr. batteries

Magnum CSW1012 1000w Inverter

Prog Dynamic PD9245-C Converter

I do a lot of camping in State, County, National Parks & Forests where there is no shore power. These remote areas often have restrictions on when/if generators are to be used, beside the fact that my diesel generator is loud & smelly to my neighbors.

My previous 2010 Fleetwood Pulse (Sprinter chassis) had a refrigerator that would automatically run on LP when no shore power was available, thereby eliminating the constant draw on the house batteries. The previous owner had upgraded the AC electrical with (4) AGM 6v deep cycle batteries in series with a Xantrex Freedom 458 Inverter/Charger, which allowed me to use the inverter to brew a small pot of coffee, use the TV, toaster oven &/or the microwave sparingly, for several days before charging.

Surprisingly, the current AC power in a new 2018 Winnebago View barely powers the refrigerator overnight (with no other electrical usage) before the batteries drop below 12v. The latest 2019 Winnebago View models now come with (2) Group 31 batteries & a 2000w Magnum inverter, obviously recognizing the design flaw in my model.

Does anyone have suggestions for options to upgrade my AC power?

[Kayak73]

Well, there are more than a few current posts discussing this issue here. I just posted one about a 7 night dry camp experience. Your problem is the refrigerator basically. You can't realistically add enough battery anywhere to support a 2000 watt inverter although that sounds handy. I modified the battery tray in my '18V24D to hold two Trojan T-1275 batteries for 300AH power (there is a post with a photo album by another member available along with much discussion on how to do this).


So read all the info, make your choices but be prepared to trade the rig, forget boondocks or change the refrigerator after spending lots of money and time fighting the inevitable. LiON batteries are an option, more money, more work. If you stay wet cell go for the most AH you can get under the steps. I thought about LiON batteries under the sink, did not do that because my experience is the refrigerator is junk. It probably will be less expensive to replace the refrigerator (already replaced in kind under warranty) with two way, LP. That's a beast for work because of heat venting etc.


To say it again, your power issue is DC, not AC. The refrigerator runs on 12VDC. You need massive batteries, a better converter and a better refrigerator to boondock. Best wishes for success and if you find it, please post results. I can make it 4 nights but after that it gets pretty dicey. You need a Trimetric or Victron battery monitor to watch AH usage. You need to do some electrical work in measuring amperage draws of loads. I had to add a shutoff switch to get the stereo turned off and out of standby mode, lots of things add up. You will also use the water pump and probably the on demand Truma water heater some time. Like - take a shower. Water pumps use amperage too. If you need the furnace for heat - bam, another draw for that blower motor. Wouldn't it really be nice to have a LP refrigerator now - well, wouldn't it? How much generator time will your neighbors tolerate before banging on the rig or whining about diesel fumes...Running the generator to try and recharge batteries is a loosing struggle BTW, take a real charger and put some juice in em. Unless of course you take the Honda 2000 gas genny and run it all day and night - then you are good to go. A pain though, then you need to take a gas can and on it goes, all because of a stupid 12VDC refrigerator...

[luvlabs]

You will do way better on electrical power if you just replace the two stock 12V house batteries with a couple of 200 amp/hr 6V golf cart batteries. If it isn't sunny enough to charge your batteries, don't hesitate to run your generator. A couple of hours in the morning and a couple hours in the late afternoon, early evening and you will do just fine.

[Kayak73]

Luvlabs I seldom disagree with you but nope, if you are fortunate enough to have the 12VDC DE0061 refrigerator those minimal hours of generator usage will not even touch the recharge time needed using the converter to replace AH used by the refrigerator and other things in the rig. Even running the generator for 10 hours during one rainy day, day 5, of our recent boondock did not come close and that is with the 300AH of golf cart batteries. BTW, I got 300AH by going with 12VDC in parallel although I normally would have gone with 6VDC is series. In this particular rig you need all the AH you can get - that meant the T-1275 batteries, available at most golf cart shops for maximum AH that could be wedged under the steps after the Sawzall chop and mod.


In the "old days" the paradigm for two hours AM and two hours PM of generator use worked great but it was based on the two or three way LP refrigerator. This 12VDC unit runs 24x7, cycles all the time, draws about twice the rated amps and it does not seem to matter what setting the thermostat is on, it cycles continuously. I turn it down at night anyway because it sounds logical - it still cycles the same amount and the same intervals.


Referring to my other post this AM in another thread after five days the generator barely started in the AM, on day seven I had to start the engine to get the generator started. When we left that dry camp and went to a camp with power the converter charged at 14.7 for a day and half, then at 14.4 for two days, then 13.6 and finally reached full charge maintenance mode at 13.2VDC after three days plugged into 30amp shore power. That is with Trojan T-1275 batteries in parallel for 300AH power. Yes, I did dry camp for 7 nights but not with full success. Four nights OK but sketchy.


Now if you are fortunate and have good solar all day long results will be better. I think of solar like a lottery, sometime someone always wins - it just is not ME and there are mostly those who look at the ticket and just sigh. I was impressed that we had good charging from solar even in partial tree shade for several hours each day until it rained and was cloudy.

[Hammerhead]

Well, I now know that I am not nuts to expect better DC battery performance from a new Winnebago.
I'll upgrade the batteries to the best I can find to fit in the existing cage. After my planned 2 month cross country adventure I'll see if getting rid of the Winnebago & finding a RV with the LP gas option refrigerator is the best course!
Ouch, what a financial hit that is going to be. What was Winnebago thinking, when they put in the all electric Norcold refrigerator that has not worked since purchasing. It has been back to the dealer twice for repair, currently 28 days & counting to be repaired.

[Hammerhead]

Solar:
Who searches for campsites in the SUN?
No charging at night or overcast days.
Yes, it's a source, but not reliable.

[Kayak73]

Hammerhead,
I really, really do feel your pain! I spent so much time fighting the fridge my friends thought I was nuts and probably got far too close to the edge of sanity indeed. Finally I called WGO again and expressed my discontent more strongly and insisted please that they just drop in, replace, the refrigerator. Thanks to another poster here and a great gentleman at Norcold they shipped a replacement to my service shop and it has worked as described, no lost food, no failures. It keeps food cold with minor mods and around 4-7 *F in the freezer and around 35-38 *F in the bottom. The issue is partly mine and I accept the fact I ignored reality when we purchased the rig. My brain was screaming to me the 12VDC unit would NOT work for boondocks yet we wanted to go small again and leave the ClassA DP for that reason, boondock in NF and smaller sites where the large rig would not go. My brain and reasoning did not work together which somehow happens in real life so now we are trying to decide the best option. Really it will be less expensive to go LiION with all those changes or swap the fridge than to trade rigs again. I hate trading or selling/buying RVs because you always have to go through the fix it up to work stage and I've got it all done on this rig except the refrigerator issue. Good luck with your choice!

[Kayak73]

One other caveat about the DE0061 unit, like most RV small units it has minimal thermal recovery ability. We learned that with the replacement unit. If you put in more than two warm canned drinks in the bottom or anything unfrozen in the freezer it might take the thing 8 hours to catch up. Said another way it transfers thermal energy minimally with the very small compressor. We how have an agreement to only add two cans every four hours etc. to the bottom and only put already frozen food in the freezer. Sometimes that is tough while on the road on a long trip but something else you must be aware of. When they say "this unit is made to keep cold food cold" that is exactly what they mean; it is not made to cool down food not already cold and is very poor at that function - thermal transference. So, do not plan on putting a warm six pack in the bottom - the thing will get hot! Been there, done that.

[Hammerhead]

Considering I purchased this RV on 3/14/19 and the Norcold refrigerator has not worked properly yet, your advice & suggestions are most welcome! Thank you!
I can't believe we are the only experienced RV'ers questioning the move to compressor refrigerators from tried & true LP backup units. I know all my camping friends can't understand it.
I feel like I have a leach tying me to the RV!
To tell the truth, I made my intended use of boondocking clear to every dealer I spoke with & not once did the limitations of these refrigerators come up. Ha, what was I thinking!!!
Still, I am puzzled as to "WHY" a company like Winnebago would make a change that actually limits the functionality of their new RV's.
Maybe, the decision makers don't boondock.
Hopefully they will correct this design flaw & offer compressor refrigerators as an option in the future.

[Kayak73]

Hammerhead,


There appears to be some moderately good news. I've been reading again about the lithium battery options and there is persistent advertisement about the "drop-in" replacement units, even Trojan is now marketing a drop-in lithium battery. They are all expensive, generally around $1000/100AH unit which I am about ready to bite on but I still have nagging doubts about the converter, alternator, solar charging. If you need to jump into modding all those systems it can get tedious and costly yet most are stating charging rates which well fit into our design as it exists. To be realistic $2000 is far less than a vehicle sell/trade option. The nice thing is lithium recharges far faster than AGM or wet cells. Most of the makers product sheets claim 5000 cycles life, charging at 14.4 - 14.6 for bulk which our existing OEM satisfies. It is a challenge, you have to stay on top of the discharge cycle and I've proven the T-1275 won't maintain after about 4 days which is primarily because I have no efficient way to bulk charge them enough in the daylight hours. Lithium should recharge in half the time which might, just might, do the trick.

[Hammerhead]

I agree, the costs to upgrade are minimal compared to replacing the RV, unfortunately these are just work arounds for the fundamental issue of a refrigerator that is drawing amps 24/7 vs. one that will run on LP.
My local battery guy was suggesting the DEKA 12v AGM's as replacements with 79 amp/hr vs, the stock NAPA 65 amp/hr.
I have attempted to get advice from Winnebago Owner Relations, which have amounted to "you are welcome to upgrade your batteries".
I just wish Winnebago would own up to this deficiency & offer some technical suggestions which could be implemented by owners without fear of voiding their warranties.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

I can't believe we are the only experienced RV'ers questioning the move to compressor refrigerators from tried & true LP backup units. I know all my camping friends can't understand it.

Me, too. I've read several threads both on Winnieowners and IRV2 praising residential refrigerators and, as a distant second, 12V refrigerators. Some state that something like 95% of potential RV purchasers want residential refrigerators. Sure, they're generally bigger, cool better, and have fewer perks but the biggest issue I've seen touted is that, with an LPG/AC unit, your RV is going to burn down. The answer to those of us who like to camp without power, is generally "just run your generator for x hours a day". I don't want to run my generator any longer than a few minutes to run my microwave and I don't want my neighbors to run their's for hours. I know there have been fire issues and, despite the time I've spent Googling, I have yet to see any statistics on how big the risk is.

Just in case, I'm adding an automatic extinguisher and smoke alarm to my 2002 MH with it's LPG/AC Norcold refrigerator along with both internal and external cooling fans.

[Hammerhead]

Kayak73,
Where would I find the thread describing:
"I modified the battery tray in my '18V24D to hold two Trojan T-1275 batteries for 300AH power (there is a post with a photo album by another member available along with much discussion on how to do this)."
Thanks

[Hammerhead]

BobC,
All I can say is, every camper I run with, cannot understand the switch to compressor refrigerators. They are sympathetic to my personal situation, but glad to know what to avoid when purchasing future rigs. We avoid running generators at all in campgrounds if it is at all possible.
I have never heard of folks worried about their rigs burning down due to a 3 way refrigerator.

[Kayak73]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

Kayak73,
Where would I find the thread describing:
"I modified the battery tray in my '18V24D to hold two Trojan T-1275 batteries for 300AH power (there is a post with a photo album by another member available along with much discussion on how to do this)."
Thanks

Look at the public profile of TUCSONTOY, the member who posted the project first here. In his profile you will find the photo album of his install and modification of the battery tray to accept two T-1275 batteries. I just attacked the thing with a big Sawzall with metal cutting blade and used a piece of sheet steel (on hand in shop) for the bottom - he used aluminum. The steel is pop riveted to the sides remaining. Plenty of strength because there is still original steel subframe below. Look and you will see. Be sure to cut to the edges of the box to allow clearance for battery cables to enter. The T-1275s must be placed in straight vertical, still tight. They will not move once installed. I had to replace one Neg. battery cable, found correct part at Tractor Supply, exact length with ends already on - easy. My problem is I had to get my son to help because to Trojans are really heavy, about 85lbs each if I remember. Tucsontoy is a helpful resource. This is one of those mods a person with fear might balk at but it is your RV, if you want to do it - do it. I know for a fact it allows us to camp 4 nights before really getting those big honkers down in the power. I don't regret doing the mod at all because now the tray will hold other sizes like group 31 or one giant 200AH lithium or even larger drop in. I will try to use the Trojans for at least another year but ultimately lithium has to be the answer. Even if I swap out the refrigerator for the Isotherm Cruise 195 Classic unit, something I seriously considered about 12 months ago but they finally got the DE0061 replaced. That is the route if this one fails. The other mods probably should be an upgraded converter, like the PD9260 for more amps output. My PD9245 failed in the early months of ownership and was replaced in kind, probably failed when the OEM batteries just died after trying to run the DE0061 a few months, I mean belly up dead OEM batteries. Then one of the solar panels died - 0 output, replaced under warranty. General thought about the solar is for 300AH of battery you need 300 or more watts of solar. The OEM controller is not very efficient either - need a real controller, I'm not springing on that, spend money where it helps.


Some people say the original converter is big enough per design but consider that living in the RV you might turn on the heater (blower motor), water pump, lower the bed, play music, turn on the Truma and all the while the DE0061 is constantly cycle operation at around 6 amps regardless of what they state. That leaves very little at times to get a charge dumped back into the batteries.

[uthurricaner]

I have a class A with the napa 31 batteries, they only marginally better than your batteries. However the 2000 magnum inverter/charger can put out twice the amps of the 9245. The bigger issue is the wire size to the inverter is much larger so the charger has no voltage drop. Not sure on the views but on my unit the charger wire is much too small and runs too long. You can either mount another 60 amp converter next to the inverter or change the inverter out for an inverter charger, you will not be able to exceed much over the 1000 watts without changing out the wire size.
Just changing out the batteries won't solve the problem, you need to upgrade the charging system.

Sam

[fstclyz]

Guys,
I believe I remember another thread talking about 6v batteries which would fit the OEM Navion/View tray. I don't want to cut mine up for the T1275's. I had a note about buying the Trojan T145 plus bats. I'm ready to do this upgrade and just wanted confirmation that this or something similar will fit.

Can you someone concur or assist me? Thx

[barney]

I have a new 2019, late build date. I replaced the Napa batteries with 2 golf cart batteries. The only mod needed was to raise the battery hold down clamps and raise the location of the 150 amp stock fuse. Otherwise, they drop right in. My experience has been good. My Norcold has worked well and holds 10 degrees, in the freezer, at level 4 on the dial.



An overnight fridge run, while dry camping, uses about 25% of my safe available battery power. My two golf carts are 220 amp hours each, at 6V, so they provide 220 amp hours at 12V. I divide that in half, for a safe usable level of 110 amp hours. I set my Trimetric battery monitor to that amount. Starting with 100% battery charge, at about 8 PM, I will typically see about 75-80% the next morning. I have added an additional 160 watts of solar, for a total of 360 watts. I also added a good quality MPPT solar controller. On a sunny day, I am seeing up to 20 amps of solar charge, which can easily recharge the batteries in a few hours.


For cloudy days, I carry a Honda 2000 generator for recharging and running computers.



If I were to upgrade, I would add two Battleborn lithium batteries and a 60 amp Progressive Dynamics lithium charger. The lithiums can be recharged at the full rate and do not require an lengthy adsorption phase. Two to three hours, on the Honda, to fully recharge.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

Kayak73,
Where would I find the thread describing:
"I modified the battery tray in my '18V24D to hold two Trojan T-1275 batteries for 300AH power (there is a post with a photo album by another member available along with much discussion on how to do this)."
Thanks

I also have a 2018 24D (Navion vice View) and am interested in that thread- did you get an answer? I was also thinking about adding a third or fourth battery in the storage bin next to the existing battery box- any thoughts?

[jcurtisis]

Kayak 73,
You noted above that “I had to add a shutoff switch to get the stereo turned off and out of standby mode...”. How did you do that?