30amp to 50amp

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

In what way would it not be code or lead to unforeseen and unpredictable results?

As long as all the wiring to the breaker box was upgraded and both the ATS and breaker box were rated for 50 amps, it would be no different than a 2 circuit 50 amp system that only has a 2nd A/C connected to the second circuit when that 2nd A/C is either not installed or not running.

It is hard for me to explain to you because it seems that you are not familiar with proper electrical practices. This is not meant in a derogatory manner. I am not a auto tech and I am certain I have ideas that just won't be of good practice and may end up being of personal harm or equipment failure. This is the case with your proposal. The components are designed to function within certain limits and parameters.



A 30A pedestal is a single 120V/30A circuit and all RV's are wired to accept this conditioning directly or through an adapter (dog bone). A 50A pedestal is 2 120V/50A circuits. All RV's are wired to accept this conditioning directly or through an adapter (dog bone).



Many RV's have EMS (Energy Management System) devices. These detect the service level (30A/50A/Generator) and manage the loads as needed. The way this works is quite ingenious. When a 50A RV is plugged into a 30A pedestal, for example, the EMS senses this and drops loads as needed to prevent the 30A breaker from tripping and restores them when power is available. If the RV is on generator the EMS responds as programed to this condition and drops and restores loads as required.



My point is simple. Because of the complexity of many of the RV power systems it is not wise to do anything to defeat or deviate from the norm unless you are a qualified electrical engineer or very clever and technically astute in electrical circuitry.


Happy, safe and healthy trails,
Rick Y

[Goodspike]

First, I am familiar with electrical practices and your claiming I man not does not mean anything you've said is a valid objection. I've already specified that the ATS and the breaker box have to be rated for 50 amp. And since we're talking just a single 50 amp circuit and changing out all the wiring to the breaker box to handle 50 amps, when plugging into a 30 amp outlet would still be perfectly safe, at least to the RV. If the pedestal 30 amp breaker didn't trip for some reason, the only components being overloaded would be upstream of the pedestal and outside the RV. This is exactly the opposite of the unsafe practice of using a 50 to 30 amp dogbone to connect when a 30 amp outlet is not available. That is unsafe!

And note I'm not talking about adding any electrical load to the RV with additional devices or circuits. I'm only talking about increasing the capacity of the main breaker and everything running to it from the pedestal. So even assuming they plugged into a 30 amp circuit it's no more dangerous than the current situation of exceeding 30 amps on the current system (ignoring the fact there would be a second 30 amp breaker in the RV that could trip now--but again anything getting overheated would be upstream of the pedestal).

Returning to the house analogy, this is basically the same as upgrading a house from a 100 amp service to a 200 amp service by replacing the lines from the transformer and installing a larger breaker, without adding any circuits or demand to the house. That would not in any way be dangerous, and would actually be safer (assuming the breaker box was rated for 200 amps). The only difference is the line running from a transformer to a house is not protected against overcurrent like the line running from a pedestal to an RV.

If you want to claim this is unsafe you need to give a scenario that is unsafe.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

First, I am familiar with electrical practices and your claiming I man not does not mean anything you've said is a valid objection. I've already specified that the ATS and the breaker box have to be rated for 50 amp. And since we're talking just a single 50 amp circuit and changing out all the wiring to the breaker box to handle 50 amps, when plugging into a 30 amp outlet would still be perfectly safe, at least to the RV. If the pedestal 30 amp breaker didn't trip for some reason, the only components being overloaded would be upstream of the pedestal and outside the RV. This is exactly the opposite of the unsafe practice of using a 50 to 30 amp dogbone to connect when a 30 amp outlet is not available. That is unsafe!

And note I'm not talking about adding any electrical load to the RV with additional devices or circuits. I'm only talking about increasing the capacity of the main breaker and everything running to it from the pedestal. So even assuming they plugged into a 30 amp circuit it's no more dangerous than the current situation of exceeding 30 amps on the current system (ignoring the fact there would be a second 30 amp breaker in the RV that could trip now--but again anything getting overheated would be upstream of the pedestal).

Returning to the house analogy, this is basically the same as upgrading a house from a 100 amp service to a 200 amp service by replacing the lines from the transformer and installing a larger breaker, without adding any circuits or demand to the house. That would not in any way be dangerous, and would actually be safer (assuming the breaker box was rated for 200 amps). The only difference is the line running from a transformer to a house is not protected against overcurrent like the line running from a pedestal to an RV.

If you want to claim this is unsafe you need to give a scenario that is unsafe.

Being defensive does not change the facts. A 30A RV power cord is not designed to carry more than 30A. If I am understanding you correctly, you are proposing changing the 30A plug to a 50A plug. If the RV that this is done to manages to draw more than 30A the main in the RV will trip. In other words, a 50 to 30 amp dog bone does not provide more power to the RV. The RV is still limited to 30A service. Replacing the plug accomplishes nothing. In fact, if wired wrong, 240V cold be applied to the RV. I can think of no positive scenarios that would make what you propose a good idea.
I feel that we all have the right to express our ideas, good or bad. I also feel, very strongly, that when we are wrong it is time to thank the one who sets us straight. I have had to say thank you to many people over the years as I have learned. This is what makes America Great!
I hope you don't think like a certain, unnamed politician, recently stated: "I don't care what your facts are. I don't believe them." Life is too short to fight over the need to be right. If you need to be right, be so. Just don't do it at the expense of others.
Happy trails and God bless you.
Rick Y

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Being defensive does not change the facts. A 30A RV power cord is not designed to carry more than 30A. If I am understanding you correctly, you are proposing changing the 30A plug to a 50A plug. If the RV that this is done to manages to draw more than 30A the main in the RV will trip. In other words, a 50 to 30 amp dog bone does not provide more power to the RV. The RV is still limited to 30A service.
Rick Y

You're missing the fact that I'm also suggesting changing out the main in the RV to 50 amp! And also all the wiring between that main and the pedestal! I'm basically upgrading the entire system from one 30 amp circuit to one 50 amp circuit. Nothing would be undersized.

This is not at all like plugging a 30 amp into a 50 amp using a dogbone adapter. That is a practice I have pointed out in many threads here as being unsafe. And the reason it's unsafe is that any short in between the dogbone and the main in the RV could cause a fire, as could the failure of the 30 amp breaker in the RV.

The 30 amp systems in RVs have a huge deficiency if there is an A/C installed in the unit. That's because the A/C should probably be on a 20 amp circuit. The microwave a 15. The outlets another 15 for say a hair dryer. Running any one of these things by themselves is perfectly safe, but running combinations of them can cause the 30 main to trip. There's no way such a system that is prone to tripping would be to code in a home. My suggestion fixes that deficiency such that the breaker box can safely be supplied 50 amps of power. You could run the A/C, microwave and a hair dryer at the same time and be perfectly safe.

Simply put, upgrading the entire system prior to the main breaker box is not unsafe in any manner, and you have not suggested a single reason that is would be. And the reason for that is that you cannot, because it is safer.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

In fact, if wired wrong, 240V cold be applied to the RV.

I assume here you're talking about the pedestal being wired wrong. That would be problematic (to understate it) for any RV with a 50 amp connection. That's one reason campsite power should be tested before plugging in. But that is a risk a 30 amp connection wouldn't face. There the worst pedestal issue would be a reversed hot/neutral or open ground.

As to the RV possibly being wired wrong, you could make that same argument with any change that might be made between the main breaker box and the pedestal to any 50 amp RV.

[powercat_ras]

This what I do and it works perfectly, in spite of goodspike's concerns ...

Yes there are 2 30 amp rated cords that are source breaker protected at 50 amps, but it is physically impossible for them to draw 50 amps due to the breakers on the other ends of the cords. Only the cord itself could overload. Of course if you are a slob and do not keep your 30 amp cords inspected and in good condition don't do this.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by powercat_ras

This what I do and it works perfectly, in spite of goodspike's concerns ...

Yes there are 2 30 amp rated cords that are source breaker protected at 50 amps, but it is physically impossible for them to draw 50 amps due to the breakers on the other ends of the cords.

Not physically impossible at all. You're assuming no short or defect in the wiring prior to the inside breaker. If that happens in the outside cord probably not a huge deal, unless it starts a forest fire. If it happens on the wiring inside . . . .

Now if you want to say it's physically impossible for them to carry 50 amps, that I'd agree with.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I assume here you're talking about the pedestal being wired wrong. That would be problematic (to understate it) for any RV with a 50 amp connection. That's one reason campsite power should be tested before plugging in. But that is a risk a 30 amp connection wouldn't face. There the worst pedestal issue would be a reversed hot/neutral or open ground.

As to the RV possibly being wired wrong, you could make that same argument with any change that might be made between the main breaker box and the pedestal to any 50 amp RV.

Please look at my post #10. There is where this argument should have stopped. I posted the schematic for this conversion from the Winnebago website. I was objecting to the way your words seems to be leading this topic. I do hope the OP finds some truth here that he can use.

Rick Y

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Please look at my post #10. There is where this argument should have stopped. I posted the schematic for this conversion from the Winnebago website. I was objecting to the way your words seems to be leading this topic. I do hope the OP finds some truth here that he can use.

Rick Y

Post 10 was a brochure, not a schematic. BobC posted a rather useful schematic in Post 7, although I'm not clear it was for the same RV as the OP. But it did show that similar RVs could be wired with either 30 or 50 amp services and what the differences were, right down to the wire gauge.

Quite frankly, I don't care what you object to. FWIW, what I object to is your claiming something I said is unsafe without being able to begin to express why you think it's unsafe. To me that just means you don't know what you're talking about.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Please look at my post #10. There is where this argument should have stopped. I posted the schematic for this conversion from the Winnebago website. I was objecting to the way your words seems to be leading this topic. I do hope the OP finds some truth here that he can use.

Rick Y

Your right about post #10. It was my post #19 that publishes the OP's Winnebago Wiring Diagram.


I am dropping out of this thread. Goodspike, you need to be right for all the wrong reasons and just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I am building a bridge and getting over it. Safe travels. I hope the OP gets some good out of this riot.
Rick Y

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Your right about post #10. It was my post #19 that publishes the OP's Winnebago Wiring Diagram.
Rick Y

I had missed that post 19 was you. There you say:

Originally Posted by jerichorick

If you look at the second diagram you see the power cord is 6/3 and the feed to the service panel is also 6/3. Not a bad way to go. Pulling the wire in may be the biggest challenge.

I don't see how what you're suggesting there as "Not a bad way to go" is any different than what I've been talking about.

[1237dmctlc]

Phew a lot of talk back and forth here along with good points ....and I mean a lot and no disrespect meant to anyone but unless your a license electrician and familiar with RV construction and electrical design then any suggestions or ideas needs to be vetted through someone with that training and licensing. I don't know if either of you are but you both seem to have a lot of knowledge but in the end its his safety and your families depends on it. Earlier in my life I was an electrician for years then became an electrical engineer (combined 45 yrs) but I wouldn't assume I'm by any means in the know enough for the wiring of RVs they don't seem to follow the NEC as i know it. Though my 2nd job as a Firefighter fir also 36 yrs. Seen the results of those who thought they did. Not just in RVs since we had some trailer parks but in homes. My point is with so much different flavors of advice it can be both confusing and overwhelming. Go to the experts at least you expect them to know how to do it.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by 1237dmctlc

I'm by any means in the know enough for the wiring of RVs they don't seem to follow the NEC as i know it.

Thank you for that. I would agree you should get anything you do vetted by someone in the know.

But they actually have a section or more of the NEC that deals with RVs. The one thing I remember is the location of the power inlet is actually specified for trailers, and it seems sort of odd assuming I read and remember it right. Unless there's an exception I missed, it has to be on the left rear exterior, so manufacturers can't design a system with an inlet inside a compartment, which is what I would prefer (ignoring rodent issues).

But yeah, I'm not familiar with NEC rules for breaker boxes in houses, but I doubt in a house a box with a 30 amp main and two 20 amp and a few lesser branch circuits would be allowed. The 30 amp main in RVs is really driven by what's available at campsites more than what is good practice. Systems shouldn't be designed so that breaker trips are likely. And that's what you have with any RV that has a 30 amp service, an A/C and a microwave, etc.

Edit: Thinking about it, being in an RV with 30 amp service is a lot like when I'm running my 3,000 watt generator during a power outage. I have to think about what I have turned on at the same time.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by 1237dmctlc

Phew a lot of talk back and forth here along with good points ....and I mean a lot and no disrespect meant to anyone but unless your a license electrician and familiar with RV construction and electrical design then any suggestions or ideas needs to be vetted through someone with that training and licensing. I don't know if either of you are but you both seem to have a lot of knowledge but in the end its his safety and your families depends on it. Earlier in my life I was an electrician for years then became an electrical engineer (combined 45 yrs) but I wouldn't assume I'm by any means in the know enough for the wiring of RVs they don't seem to follow the NEC as i know it. Though my 2nd job as a Firefighter fir also 36 yrs. Seen the results of those who thought they did. Not just in RVs since we had some trailer parks but in homes. My point is with so much different flavors of advice it can be both confusing and overwhelming. Go to the experts at least you expect them to know how to do it.

Thank you for your service as a firefighter and for you input. You are accurate in all points. The reason I posted #10 & #19 is for that exact reason. Post #19 is the manufactures schematic of how the upgrade option in post #10 is wired. I do not have an electrical license but I have worked as a technician in the field. Certain aspects of the NEC are followed by RV manufactures and some of the electrical practices are developed by the RV industry for this unique field. An example of a can't do NEC code is grounding. RV's can't have 2 10' rods 10' apart or burred in the foundation and attached to the service panel. Hard to drive or drag that 7.2M earthquake home around with that code applied.
Again, thank you for your clear head and attitude. God bless you and keep you safe.
Happy trails.
Rick Y

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Certain aspects of the NEC are followed by RV manufactures and some of the electrical practices are developed by the RV industry for this unique field.

I was thinking about this and the NEC RV code and/or vehicle manufacturers really missed the boat on dealing with 30 amp service connections.

What they really should have done is gone with a single 50 amp circuit, but using the traditional 50 amp four prong plug. So basically that 50 amp plug, a 6/3 wire running to the breaker box and a 50 amp main breaker. The difference in cost to the manufacturer would be only the difference in cost of the larger gauge wire. And providing a 50 to 30 adapter.

The benefit to the consumer would be a system where the main breaker isn't undersized relative to the devices/circuits. Also, using a dogbone 50 to 30 would be perfectly safe. The only disadvantage is if the consumer did run too many items and trip a breaker, they'd have to go outside to set it, but that very well could be the case today too. Today they have to check two breakers!