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05-12-2021, 08:57 PM
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#1
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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12V Coach System Died
2006 Itasca Ellipse diesel pusher 40.
So it begins. I have studied other posts on this.
Driving back all day from a vaca weird symptoms began. 12v outlets ( for iphone etc) were cutting in and out. A CM detector started squealing. Then I could not start the jenny, it gave me a blink or two and stopped.
Now at home on 20A shore power the batteries are not charging. I have 110 where expected but coach batteries are a 5v now. My coach battery disconnect switch seems irrelevant because of lack of power to trip the solenoid. I checked all the breaker panels seems normal.
Do I have an isolation solenoid failure or a charger problem? I know this is probably a simple one part failure but not sure where to look on my rig.
Thanks.
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05-12-2021, 10:54 PM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,336
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You have to start at the batteries and work forward.
* Recharge your house batteries.
* Verify you do not have any shorts in your battery. You can do this by:
A) Taking your batteries to an Interstate store or Les Schwab and they will test them for free.
or
B) Do a Microwave Test. I.e., cook a bowl of water for 3 minutes and if the voltage in your batteries do not come came to about 0.1V less than you started, you probably have sulfated batteries; and they will test Okay, but not preform at all.
* Or you have a short somewhere in your 12V system which is a PITA to test because Winne put in pop-out 12V CBs, which means you can't just turn the power off to any one 12V load.
* Or maybe your BDS or Boost Solenoid, has a short in the coil to ground. Test the other side of the coil with a volt probe and see if it lights up or is dim?
Questions
* How old are your batteries?
Note: If you have a residential refrigerator I only get 2 years on my house batteries, because I'm always driving my RV and that means I can't "equalize" my battery cells to get longer life out of my FLA batteries.
* Do you leave a battery maintainer on you house batteries when you put your RV in storage?
* Has your Boost Solenoid or BDS ever been replaced?
If you believe you have good solenoids, the next thing I would do is put an Amp meter in series with positive battery cable to see if you have a current drain with everything off.
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05-13-2021, 09:10 AM
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#3
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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Thanks. I will start checking. Seems like it just went south in the afternoon maybe after the last stop for gas ( engine off) , I am back on shore power at home. That is my default storage situation. House batteries 5v. Batteries 2 years. Frig, Dometic which is always on propane. Where is my boost solenoid located.
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05-13-2021, 12:07 PM
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#4
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Pflugerville/Austin, Tx
Posts: 7,368
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I would not look too long at the solenoid as the 110Vac comes in pretty direct to the converter and then the output of the converter goes to the batteries pretty direct as well.
The solenoid DOES connect the coach batteries to the start battery and alternator when either the RV engine is running or you push the AUX/ boost switch on the dash but not normally when just plugged in. That being part of the reason some many have trouble keeping the start battery charged during storage.
I would suggest looking at the breaker for the inverter/ charger to make sure it is getting power to pass to the charging section of the inverter and then make sure it is not unplugged or a breaker or switch on that is not giving the trouble.
__________________
Richard
Why no RV year, make and floorplan on MY signature as we suggest for others?
I currently DO NOT have one!
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05-13-2021, 05:29 PM
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#5
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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05-13-2021, 06:58 PM
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#6
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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Ok, ok, I see the inverter charger right in front of me but the pop up breakers are all good.
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05-13-2021, 07:00 PM
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#7
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Pflugerville/Austin, Tx
Posts: 7,368
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Your model/year RV has a combined inverter/charger, which means it does two jobs. It uses a 12VDC connection to the batteries to make 110 VAC power to run a few things like TV, microwave, and some outlets when you are not plugged in.
To check that the inverter part is working one could verify that the microwave is working/ lit when plugged in, then unplug the RV and see if the micro is still lit as it is an easy thing to see.
This would prove that the inverter is getting power from the coach batteries and making the 110VAC to run things. However. if the batteries are run down, this will not work and the micro will be dead when you are not plugged into power!
Second test is a bit harder as this part is the charger for the batteries and really sounds like the part that is giving trouble. What is needed is to check that the 110 VAC power is getting TO the inverter/charger and then also that it is making the 12VDC to send to the batteries.
Reason for testing the first part is that it verifies that power is getting to and from the inverter/charger. BUT we can't depend on that working if the batteries are too run down.
A that point one needs to look at the point where the 12VDC is supposed to come OUT of the charging section going to the batteries.
Since the batteries measure so low, we know that they are not getting charged, but we don't know if it is because they are no longer able to hold a charge, the wiring from the charger is no good or if it is the charger that is not working.
Ideally we would want to open the case on the inverter charger and test right at the output for the 12VDC and then we could decide if it is that unit or wiring between it and the batteries causing the lack of charging.
I do not know that inverter charger but the drawing seems to show a button where I have marked in yellow???? Is that possibly a popout breaker or reset button to push?
Looking for an easy way out, that would be great to find like on the backside where you can't see it!!!!
Best of luck!
__________________
Richard
Why no RV year, make and floorplan on MY signature as we suggest for others?
I currently DO NOT have one!
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05-13-2021, 07:44 PM
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#8
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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That is very clear. I can do that. Is it possible that someone could have messed with the inverter charger display panel and told the unit not to charge? I know someone was messing with it that morning.
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05-13-2021, 09:12 PM
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#9
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Pflugerville/Austin, Tx
Posts: 7,368
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I'm somewhat crippled on that point as I don't know the display/monitor that well on the bigger Rv. I would want to look carefully for a switch of that sort but it would also surprise me to have something to turn off the converter/charging portion. The inverter will most likely have some switch to turn it off, however.
A switch to turn off the inverter would may more sense as a way to reduce battery drain when not connected to power. When boondocking, we can make the batteries last a bit longer if we turn off the equipment (inverter) when we don't want it making the AC power for things like TV and microwave.
Another point which I might like to verify before chasing things too far is that the coach battery disconnect is left in the "on" positions as so many things do rely on that battery power to function.
The disconnect switch may be one of those things which need power from the battery to operate the relay to the correct position, even though there is a magnet which will hold it in the last position, whether turned on or off.
One way to get enough power to make that switch to "ON" is to start the engine which then ties the two battery strings together. In theory those two batteries plus the output of the engine alternator should certainly be enough power to let you switch the battery disconnect to "ON" and verify the inside lights, etc. are working.
Doing that would let you know that you are not adding to your problems by having left the disconnect "OFF" to something that needs to be on!!!
Made this drawing for a simple way to look at what happens.
1. When plugged into 110 Ac the charger "should " be sending 13+ volts to the coach batteries and if good, they should store that power. we're thinking this is not working because they read 5 volts?
2. When we start the RV engine a signal is sent to the small wires on the mode solenoid, making it close contacts and tie the big cable from the start battery through to the big cable going to the coach batteries.
A way to see that this is working when you have a start battery that should read 12-12.8 when settled, and a coach battery that is that low, is too just look at the voltages of each battery string.
If the voltage of the coach battery begins to go up pretty quick once we start the RV engine, it is because it is now tied together with the power coming from the alternator! You may get a great looking voltage like even 14 while the engine is revved up a bit but if you shut it off and look again after 20-30 minutes the voltage may be back way down again as you were seeing a "surface charge", not the real state of charge of the battery!
But doing this does show that the mode solenoid is tying them together as it should.
I'm thinking this part is not where your problem comes in, though.
__________________
Richard
Why no RV year, make and floorplan on MY signature as we suggest for others?
I currently DO NOT have one!
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05-13-2021, 11:32 PM
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,336
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Here's my power grid as I have diagramed it. I think everything is correct except for how the Boost Solenoid is coil trigger wire is connected. That I still need to verify.
Your 2006 power grid sound identical to my 2004. You be the judge.
* Also, you may be getting confused by the fact the Dimensions Inverter+Charger is a 2-in-1 box. I.e. it is either Inverting 12V to 120V... or ...it is charging the house batteries... THROUGH THE SAME "00" CABLE. Remember, current flows from high potential to low potential.
So get out your mult-meter and start taking voltage measurement in all the different configurations:
A) No Shore Power
B) With Shore Power
And be sure you control panel in the coach is properly set!
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05-14-2021, 08:08 AM
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#11
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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When I start run my engine my coach batteries read low. Is that not the mode solenoid failing? Measuring everything now.
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05-14-2021, 08:35 AM
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#12
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Pflugerville/Austin, Tx
Posts: 7,368
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With engine running, the coach batteries should read higher than when the engine is not running. How high/how low will depend on how low they were to start but it should come up over time with the engine running. Understand that the battery is a chemical reaction and it takes some time if you connect a 5 volt discharged battery to the good 12 + from the start battery and alternator.
That is a part that gets lots of us in trouble as we may get a full 12-13 volts reading on the meter but then when we disconnect the charging the battery if flat 10 volts in a few minutes. We call this "surface charge" because it is just high on the surface where we we adding the voltage, not all the way down through the battery chemicals!
If you have the meter on the low coach battery and start the engine, it should first jump up pretty good as they are first connected and then more gradually increase--if the solenoid is working right.
If they continue to read low, the solenoid and wiring is suspect. One of the most common problems is in the connections getting corroded, though, so do look those over as a first set and don't fail to look at both ends of the ground cables as we tend to forget them.
__________________
Richard
Why no RV year, make and floorplan on MY signature as we suggest for others?
I currently DO NOT have one!
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05-14-2021, 11:51 AM
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,336
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rheine: Your start circuit to the engine is separate from from your Boost and BDS solenoid. So disconnect these and then start your engine and then take some voltage measurements.
Your alternator with a good voltage regulator should be putting out 13.8V+. However, if the diodes inside the voltage regulator, which is normally located inside the alternator go bad, then they will drain your battery overnight; and the only way to replace these is to disassemble the alternator.
(Remember when their used to be alternator repair shops in the neighborhood? Now you go buy a new alternator to get a new voltage regulator.)
If your house battery has a battery isolator (charging circuit) or B.I.R.D. that joins the engine battery to the house battery...then yes... your house battery will be with-in 0.1V of the alternator charging voltage with the engine running.
SOLENOIDS
Those solenoids are just switches. The big battery cable on the left side will pass high current to the big battery cable on the right side... when your low current (small wires) in the front activate the coil in side.
One of those small wires is 12V. The other is your "trigger wire" and it goes to your boost solenoid switch or your BDS switch.
Normally your switch triggers ground. This prevents arching at the switch.
OTHER COMMENTS
* Your boost solenoid is a "momentary" solenoid. This means you have to hold down the switch for it to work. And sometimes, not often, this switch goes bad or you just need to clean it... or apply some side-loading-pressure to get it to work.
* Your BDS or Salesman Switch by the front door is sends a trigger to "Latch" your BDS. This means the coil inside the BDS will remain in that position (the latched position) until you once again press the switch.
* When a any solenoid coil shorts to ground it will drain your battery over the course of a day or two or three or week. It depends. However, I doubt that coil sinks enough current that it will pull your voltage down at the battery... when you one by one reconnect your solenoid(s).
* Make sure you buy the Trombetta solenoid with silver contacts inside. (...with the -020 part number.)
TIP: Most of the time, Winnebago uses yellow wires as the 12V wire and white wire for ground.
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05-14-2021, 03:43 PM
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#14
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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Getting ahead of me. Some initial readings.
On both hot leads I get 1.3VAC on the 12v side I get 2.6VDC
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05-14-2021, 04:22 PM
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#15
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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Charging up while studying these diagrams.
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05-16-2021, 12:56 PM
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#16
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Winnebago Watcher
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheine3
That is very clear. I can do that. Is it possible that someone could have messed with the inverter charger display panel and told the unit not to charge? I know someone was messing with it that morning.
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The inverter/charger has nothing to do with charging the batteries while driving down the road. It only charges the batteries when the engine is shut off and you are connected to shore power or running the generator. The batteries should charge from the engine alternator. My understanding is that when you start the engine, it will first charge the chassis batteries to a certain voltage, I think about 13.2, and then the relay, or some call it combiner kicks in and starts charging the house batteries.
So yes, I would start with the batteries first. Disconnect the positive cable from all the posts. I don't know how many your have, but I have three. Disconnect the cable from the positive post on each battery, so they are all independent of each other. Test the voltage. Also a very good investment is a battery load and resistance tester. One like this works great.
https://www.harborfreight.com/digita...zer-66892.html
Then put a charger, capable of at least 25 amps on one battery at a time. If each battery charges and test ok then AND ONLY THEN is it time to move on.
Now it is time to find if you have a draw, if the battery combiner is bad, if you have a short somewhere. or a bad connection. Trying to test anything without being sure the batteries are good and fully charged is just a waste of time.
The PO of my coach, bought one new battery and installed it after I purchased it but before I picked it up. Not sure why, or what he did to check but that's what he did. Since I winter in Mexico plugged in all the time, and only used the invertor for short periods while traveling I really paid no attention. Coming home it seemed to me that I did not seem to have very much battery backup, either running the invertor or the furnace. Took all three out and 2 tested bad, the new one tested 100%. I put the one new one back in, and I had more battery with one good battery than 2 bad ones and one good one. Your bank will only be as good as the worst battery.
I also had a weird occurrence. While driving down the road, all 20 of my dash lights would go into a chase pattern. I would pull over, set park brake and put in neutral and they would stop. Research on this chase pattern issue kept coming back to battery voltage issues. And, yes, it seemed like it would happen maybe 20 minutes into a drive. Since I took the two bad batteries out, it has not happened. I cannot say for sure, but it appears that when the coach battery came up to voltage, then went in to try and charge the house battery, it would pull voltage down to the point where it set off this chase pattern.
So, batteries and battery voltage can have a lot of weird effects on all the electronics this stuff is running on.
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05-19-2021, 04:07 PM
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#17
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: on a constant, around the country, trip!
Posts: 404
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Batteries, batteries, batteries. when they fail, all sorts of things look wrong.
I had a bad alternator, that went gradually, same time the house batteries went south. Finally figured it all out. New alternator helped while we were driving. Shore power & generator keep 12v through inverter/converter. Everything seemed wonky.
Replaced the batteries, and all problems went away.
__________________
2010 Journey 39n - 2017 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk - this our 13th year living aboard, travelling and visiting the Pacific NW, summer 2023
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05-19-2021, 04:33 PM
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#18
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2002 Journey WPK36GD
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: NE, Indiana
Posts: 207
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Not relevant?
I read through this thread with interest. I preface this by saying I have the utmost respect for Morich, imnprsd and most of the commenters. The pictures are great and should be saved in you personal database.
The not relevant part is this: We were having strange inputs and results from our main control station. All of our inputs were ignored, the charge level voltages (and currents) were inconsistent with what was happening.
I finally gave up and took it to a guy in Elkhart. The diagnosis was mice or chipmunks ate the wires insulation and after a rough patch of road on I-10 things went wrong. He pulled new cables and all has been good for two years.
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05-19-2021, 04:41 PM
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#19
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 70
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Yes, I unhooked all the batteries and started charging one by one. The third one was rejected by the charger. Didn't indicate bad just charged for 10 seconds and went off. Theses are one year old and my connections still look good from the Dremmel cleaning I do each time. I do have a load tester but if I remember it expects a fully charged battery. Will try that next.
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05-20-2021, 08:38 AM
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#20
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Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Cazadero,Ca
Posts: 16
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Maybe check the fuse on the converter. If it's blown replace it and see if that was the problem. Mine blew awile back replaced it and haven't had a problem since
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