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Old 08-13-2020, 10:14 AM   #1
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2021 Winnebago View D Power for Boondocking

We purchased a 2021 Winnebago View D with the standard solar panels and a DC refrigerator. We would like to boondock for 24-48 hours but the refrigerator drains to much power for us to let it run without the generator on. Some of the campgrounds do not allow generators. Does anyone have any tips to make this work? If we switch to Lithium Batteries will this solve our problem? Also, can we switch only the house battery to Lithium and leave the Chassis as is?
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:32 AM   #2
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This was the subject of a couple of lengthy threads, so you might want to do a search on lithium batteries as well as DC refrigeration and review them.

The first thing you should do is tell us what coach batteries you have now. I think Winnebago delivers new coaches with Group 27 AGMs which typically have 140 amp hours of capacity. Also for those batteries you should never draw them down below 50% for best life.

The first step and it may not be enough is to replace those batteries with two 6V golf cart batteries wired in series. These cost about $100 each and will give you 220 Ahs or 110 useable. So you will go from 70 to 110 Ah useable.

The next step which is more extensive and costly is to replace the batteries with two 100 Ah lithium batteries such as sold by Battle Born. Even though they are only 200 Ahs total, unlike standard batteries you can run them down by 90% so you have a usable capacity of 190 Ah, more than double your current batteries. That should get you two nights at least.

But for better charging performance you should also upgrade your converter to an 80 Ah lithium compatible one like the Progressive Dynamics 9800 AL. If you do have to run your generator to recharge, this converter will limit run time because it has almost double the charging capacity of the regular 45 amp unit and it is designed specifically to work with lithium batteries.

And finally if you camp in one place for a couple of days and move to another then perhaps install a battery to battery charger (B2B) to optimize charging from your chassis alternator (and to protect it from overheating) while travelling. Renogy, Victron, Redarc, etc make them.

David
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Old 08-13-2020, 11:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moransfive View Post
Also, can we switch only the house battery to Lithium and leave the Chassis as is?
Yes. Leave the Chassis battery as is.

Many have found a switch to LiPo batteries, like Battleborn, Renergy, or Victron has made all the difference when using the coach off grid.

Also, with slight modifications changing the battery sizing from Group 24 to Group 31 is also an doable DIY project. That's important because many of the 100 amp hour LiPo batteries are Group 31.

In general, the smaller Group 24 battery is limited to between 64 and 75 amp hours. Where Group 31 batteries are generally 100 amp hour and some are even 125 amp hour.

As DavidM suggested do a search and you'll see lots of discussion on this topic.
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Old 08-13-2020, 01:55 PM   #4
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We purchased a 2021 View 24D in June and had Lichtsinn add 280W of solar panels (total of 480W) plus upgrade the coach batteries to lithium (two 125Ah batteries).

The 2020/2021 View/Navions come with two Group 31 batteries. The lithium upgrade replaces those batteries with two Lithionics Group 31 125Ah batteries - that should provide at least twice as much power as the standard batteries (because the standard batteries shouldn't be discharged lower than 50%, and the lithium batteries can be discharged down to 10% - plus the Lithionics batteries hold 125Ah each).

This should provide us more than enough power to operate for days without shore power or using the generator, as long as there is sun to recharge the batteries and we don't need to run the air conditioner.

If we did run low on power or need to run the air conditioner for a short time, we would use the diesel generator.

Note that unlike the stock batteries, the Lithionics batteries have a built-in battery management system. If you do start running low on battery charge, the BMS should automatically shut off the batteries when they hit 10%, protecting them from any damage.

In addition to the solar and lithium batteries, we also had Lichtsinn install a hard-wired surge protector (to protect against bad shore power) and an AMP-L-START that can keep the engine battery charged from the coach batteries.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moransfive View Post
We purchased a 2021 Winnebago View D with the standard solar panels and a DC refrigerator. We would like to boondock for 24-48 hours but the refrigerator drains to much power for us to let it run without the generator on. Some of the campgrounds do not allow generators. Does anyone have any tips to make this work? If we switch to Lithium Batteries will this solve our problem? Also, can we switch only the house battery to Lithium and leave the Chassis as is?
Yes, and yes.
I think switching to LiFePO4 batteries might be even simpler for you than some have suggested.

Looking at the SECTION 6 ELECTRICAL of the 2020 View OM (there isn't a 2021 model OM on the WGO website yet), it appears the electrical configuration for the View/Navion changed in 2020 when they switched from a converter/charger to a 2000W Xantrex Freedom X inverter/charger. The 2021 models may (probably) have the same configuration. Check your Infocase (aka the Black Bag of Knowledge) to verify your configuration. I suspect they did this to simplify charging for either factory battery option.

If you already have taken possession of the unit (sounds like you have) and you have the Xantrex Freedom X inverter/charger, you may only need to buy a pair of LiFePO4 100Ah (or more) GR31 sized batteries and swap them in where your existing FLA AGM GR31 batteries are now. It looks like the Xantrex Freedom X models have lithium charging capability built in, and can be set for several different charging profiles by the user (you). Your Infocase should have the specifics on which model inverter/charger you have, and that info will tell you what the maximum charging current will be. I'm only guessing, but Winnebago probably chose the XC2000 with the 2000W inverter and a possible 80A of charge output, in case a customer chose the lithium battery option.
Inverter Charger | Freedom XC Inverter/Charger | Xantrex
Video of the Xantrex X2000 Series
https://youtu.be/h2Aqa7jqRfQ

So, it may be as simple as switching out the FLAs for the LiFePO4s, tweak the inverter/charger settings to support lithium, and off you go.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:19 PM   #6
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When Lichtsinn did the Lithium upgrade, I believe they also used different cables for the batteries and a new battery box in addition to the batteries. Because I had to make an extra 2000 mile round trip back to Iowa for the upgrade, I looked into doing the upgrade myself or a local Winnebago service dealer, and decided to make the drive to Iowa for the upgrade, which is now supposed to be covered under our warranty and service plans.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rprochnow View Post
When Lichtsinn did the Lithium upgrade, I believe they also used different cables for the batteries and a new battery box in addition to the batteries. Because I had to make an extra 2000 mile round trip back to Iowa for the upgrade, I looked into doing the upgrade myself or a local Winnebago service dealer, and decided to make the drive to Iowa for the upgrade, which is now supposed to be covered under our warranty and service plans.
Which model of inverter/charger did you get with your new View? Was it the Xantrex Freedom X 2000W w/80A charger option? I'm asking for the OP to see what model they probably got with theirs.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:33 PM   #8
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2021's come with the 2000W inverter. The Lithium upgrade did not replace the inverter or solar controller. Lichtsinn used the same components Winnebago uses for factory installed lithium.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:42 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by rprochnow View Post
2021's come with the 2000W inverter. The Lithium upgrade did not replace the inverter or solar controller. Lichtsinn used the same components Winnebago uses for factory installed lithium.
Thanks for the confirmation. That's what I suspected. Any idea what the maximum charging output of your Xantrex might be in amps?
So, the OP can probably just buy some lithium batteries, and plug and play them with the inverter/charger settings adjusted.

p.s. Did your unit come woth a hardcopy Owner's Manual? I didn't see a PDF version on the Winnebago website. Just curious.
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:52 PM   #10
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The 2021's have a Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 inverter. I was able to find the .pdf file online somewhere. [I've been able to download .pdf for all of the Winnebago, Sprinter and accessories - and have that on our phones, tablets and laptops that we take on trips.]

The XC 2000 can charge up to 80A (likely set when configured for lithium batteries).

The solar controller should be changed for a lithium battery type.

You should also change the jumper on the AMP-L-START (if installed). Though it appears Lichtsinn forgot and left it set for normal batteries, and after consulting with the company that makes AMP-L-START, the normal setting should be OK with lithium batteries with BMS that automatically shuts off the batteries at low charge.

The Lithionics batteries used by Winnebago and Lichtsinn have 125Ah. Battleborn batteries have only 100Ah - getting the extra 25% of charge was worth the additional cost of the Lithionics batteries.

It's my understanding that different cables may have been needed to install the lithium batteries - plus a different battery box, because the lithium batteries are not the same form factor. Different cables may also be required.

With the high cost of the lithium batteries, and the potential for damaging either the batteries on the electronics - and invalidating the warranty, I would recommend that only a Winnebago certified installer do the lithium upgrade, especially on a new View...
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:05 PM   #11
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OK. So your Xantrex inverter charger can put out 80 amps? That's what I needed to know.

So the OP can swap lithium batteries into his rig and his existing inverter charger will work fine with them. Changing the Zamp CC setting to LiFePO4 is a simple 3 second push button task.

Awesome. Thanks rprochnow.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:06 PM   #12
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What are the issues when in cold weather? Also when storing using lithium batteries.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:18 PM   #13
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The BMS should protect the battery from cold temps.

When our RV is in storage, we plug into 110, which keeps the coach and chassis batteries charged.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:20 PM   #14
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It may be more complicated than just swapping out the batteries. May require new cabling and/or battery box. Plus any electrical problems may not be covered by warranty unless a Winnebago approved installer is used
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Coffie Drink View Post
What are the issues when in cold weather? Also when storing using lithium batteries.
The Achilles heel of LiFePO4 batteries is they don't like to accept charging current below 32F/0C at anything short of a trickle. If you try to force current into them, it can damage them irreparably. Funny thing is, they can discharge fine at below freezing temperatures. So, there aren't a lot of cold weather options short of finding some way to keep them warm. Some people build heated battery boxes, and some manufacturers, like Relion, use some of the charging current to self-heat their LT Series of 12V batteries.
They are supposed to like to be stored at a 50% state of charge, if not in use. How you figure out when they're at that level, I have no idea. I just have mine in semi-constant use, under light continuous load, and recharged by my solar, or curently, plugged in to shore, and/or both. They can be discharged almost to zero, and don't need to be fully recharged, so they're pretty flexible, and they have a very consistent discharge current level. As FLAs discharge, the voltage drops as the SoC drops. LiFePO4 holds a higher constant discharge voltage until they get almost to the point of being completely discharged. The lights don't dim as you draw them down.
As I understand the technology.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by rprochnow View Post
It may be more complicated than just swapping out the batteries. May require new cabling and/or battery box. Plus any electrical problems may not be covered by warranty unless a Winnebago approved installer is used
I had to get 2 longer cables to parallel my new lithiums. The old cables were for GR 24 sized batteries and posts, and they wouldn't reach the Relion terminals.
I had to grind my battery bay floor to make the new GR31 lithiums fit.
The last part may be true, I don't know, and I was out of warranty, when I installed mine.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:08 PM   #17
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Saw somewhere that the battery cables should be the same length.

The BMS for the Lithionics batteries will prevent charging or discharging at high or low temps
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Old 12-15-2020, 11:16 AM   #18
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Xantrex XC2000 can output up to 100 amps for charging of lithium phosate batteries and this type of battery can accept this level of current. The standard FLAT can only take 30% of their rated AH so a 100 AH FLAT or AGM battery can only be charged at the rate of 30 amps and so will take 3 times as long to bring back to 100% SOC.
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:32 PM   #19
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The recommendation to have the lithium phosphate batteries at 50% SOC is when storing the RV for more than 4 months. Easy to get the batteries down to that level by running the DC fridge for a couple of days off the battery bank.

Our 2021 Navion that shipped out in October 2020 does not have a battery box, only a metal tray and a couple of battery clamps on the top. I have attached a HDPE bottom board and 1" foam insulation to seal in the new batteries. Lot of road crud ended up in the battery tray and so enclosing the area is something I decided not to ignore even if this was ignored by the folks at Winnebago.

The Zamp charge controller has a lithium phosphate setting but not a true charge profile for this type of battery. The Xantrex is the best option for charging the batteries with shore power or using the generator.

No idea why anyone would think that replacing two 12V batteries with two 6V ones is a good idea. If on cell starts to fail on one of the 6V batteries it will generate a load and reduce the output of the second battery as well. Not a problem with a golf cart or forklift with 4 or more batteries and that is always near the shop for swapping out a bad battery, but not a good choice for an RV. Smaller lower voltage batteries are made to keep the weight done so people can lift they into place but you get the same result with a lithium phosphate battery that is half the weight of the lead acid ones.
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:38 PM   #20
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If the lithium batteries were installed at the factory, you should check with your dealer and possibly Winnebago about getting the batteries installed in a box and not a tray.

When we purchased our 21VD in early June, Lichtsinn couldn't install the lithium batteries, because the battery box was unavailable - so I made an extra 2000 mile round trip from Houston in July just to install the lithium batteries when they had the battery box.

It's possible the battery box is on backorder and Winnebago is shipping the lithium batteries without the box right now, in order to get units out of the factory. If that's the case, might be worthwhile to get on the waitlist to get a battery box that should provide more protection from outside temperature extremes and moisture..
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