2021 Winnebago View D Power for Boondocking

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Elkman

Our 2021 Navion that shipped out in October 2020 does not have a battery box, only a metal tray and a couple of battery clamps on the top. I have attached a HDPE bottom board and 1" foam insulation to seal in the new batteries. Lot of road crud ended up in the battery tray and so enclosing the area is something I decided not to ignore even if this was ignored by the folks at Winnebago.

The unsealed box is not an oversight or poor design. Winnebago installs these in all RVs that come stock from the factory with FLA and AGM batteries in unsealed boxes because of off-gassing of those batteries. But, for OEM factory Lithium installs I believe that they don't use the unsealed battery box. In fact, for some of them they install the batteries inside the conditioned space inside the RV.

My Winnebago came with 4-100aH AGM batteries in an unsealed compartment. If and when I change them to LiPo batteries I would naturally understand that this is a modification that I would have to make on my own.

Originally Posted by Elkman

No idea why anyone would think that replacing two 12V batteries with two 6V ones is a good idea.

While I'm not a fan of them myself, those that are like the fact that the construction of the plates in the cells is much thicker and more rugged. The voltage of each battery is half of that of a 12v battery while the Amp Hours available is double in the same size container. The 6v is not lighter, the overall battery weight is the same or higher per battery because the 6v has as so much additional lead inside.

Originally Posted by Elkman

The standard FLAT can only take 30% of their rated AH so a 100 AH FLAT or AGM battery can only be charged at the rate of 30 amps and so will take 3 times as long to bring back to 100% SOC.

Elkman, you keep saying FLAT batteries when I typically see battery chemistries described as FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) and AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat). Perhaps you could explain why you add the "T". It's somewhat confusing.

[Elkman]

My Navion battery compartment has two openings that are 3 inches in diameter for the cables and this is more than enough to provide ventilation for battery off gassing fumes to dissipate. There is no reason to have the front side of the battery compartment open to the water and oil thrown up by the front tire on the passenger side of the cab. I have not seen any other RV whether it was a Class A motorhome or a travel trailer or 5th wheel trailer or even a slide in camper where the batterry compartment was exposed in this manner.

There are 12 volt deep cycle batteries and the only downside is they weigh twice as much as a 6 volt version. It is why land based battery backup battery banks are often comprised of 1.5V batteries with serial connnections. But when one of these fails the loss is 1.5 volts and not 6 volts as with a failing golf cart battery. With two 12V batteries a lot more loss from one occur while still providing 12 volts to devices. It is also very easy for the person at the golf course to check the charge of a batteyr on the bench and then decide whether to replace it and use a different one for a golf cart. It is an entirely different situation for someone with an RV.

There is good reason why Winnebago is installing two lead acid 12 volt batteries in their Class C motorhomes, including their desire to continue to have them placed under the step on the passenger side of the chassis and avoid the expense of putting in a real RV battery rack or tray.

Actually batteries are known as "flooded" and not "FLA" or other abbreviation used for charger displays. These use "flat" plate cells unlike later designs that use a tubular geometery for the cells. Same with the use of various abbreviations by the charger manufacturers in place of "LiFePO4" to set the battery type to lithium phosphate. AGM batteries are usually a VRLA type or valve regulated lead- acid but this is truncated to "AGM".

No need to get hung up on jargon. Where folks get into trouble is in trying to save money and buying a battery that is not a true deep cycle battery and so is not going to have nearly as long a useful life. With the use of high output inverters in RVs to run convection ovens and induction cooktops it is also likely that battery life is being shortened as a result of the rapid discharge taking place.

[creativepart]

I've never heard Floaded Lead Acid or Absorbed Glass Mat batteries referred to as FLAT because of the style of plates. I'm not sure where that is common. A Google search before you responded came up with no references in relation to anything but flat watch-type batteries. Where have you encountered this description?

I am aware of some Circular glass mat batteries like Optima batteries. But online I see Flooded Lead Acid are commonly abbreviated to FLA just like Absorbed Glass Mat are abbreviated to AGM.

Thanks for setting me straight on what you mean when you talk about FLAT batteries.

[SeeTheUSA]

Opinions abound! Time to move on. JMHO. We all have been self-inflicted victims of our lack of adequate research, only to learn later it would have been prudent to analyze things better before laying out the cash!

Let’s keep WinnieOwners.com a friendly and helpful place

[Elkman]

Often there is not perfect choice only different trade-offs involved. Some aspects are much more easily corrected than others. I can add a couple more solar panels and change out the PWM charge controller and put in lithium phosphate batteries without major surgery required. Not the same by any means with changing out the induction and propane burner cooktop or replacing the DC fridge with a 3-way model.

What is difficult with regard to RV's is that a dealer can be hundreds of miles away and so research is done on the internet. Even worse is that with Winebago their 24D for 2019 is different from the same model manufactured in 2020 and more changes were made again for the 2021 model. The fridge changed as did the cooktop as did the Mercedes cab chassis and this is not going to be obvious to most people buying a Class C motorhome for the first time.

Good luck trying to find this information on the Winnebago website or on any of their dealers' websites or from talking to salespeople or even on the various RV forums. It should be obvious to anyone that "research" has limitations and what I like about forums is that owners can warn prospective buyers about problems. It is not a matter of whinging but rather of being concerned about others - what a concept!

[Elkman]

I did some rough calculations and the DC fridge in the 24D draws 130 amp-hours each day and the two 100W solar panels provide less than 90 amp-hours to the batteries (ignoring charge efficiency losses). That amounts to a 40 amp-hour deficit even without use of the fans or the cooktop or the TV or any laptops.

Then end result is a SOC of 50% after two days and the need to run the generator. Even with the best possible lithium phosphate 125AH batteries the generator is going to need to be run after at most 4 days in the best case scenario with a probable 30% SOC for them at that time.

It will take roughly 20 amp-hours of solar panel production just to keep the DC fridge running and the Navion 24D leaves the factory with at most 10 amps of output to the battery bank through the PWM charge controller from the two Zamp 100W solar panels installed.

[Elkman]

Flooded and AGM batteries will vent hydrogen but it is in such small amounts that a vented compartment is never found as it would only be a concern in an airtight battery compartment which is not going to be found on any RV or boat or motor vehicle. In additon the two batteries in the Mercedes Sprinter cab are located in a fully enclosed compartment and covered with lid. No reason other than to increase profits to not have a decent battery enclosure provided with the Navion.

I have noticed since installing the Lithionics lithium phosphate batteries that the charge level is far better maintained with the two 100W solar panels and the DC fridge running. I would guess that during the 5 hours of sunlight more of the charge is being utilized by the lithium phosphate batteries than was by the two flooded type batteries. An unexpected bonus with the new batteries.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Elkman

Flooded and AGM batteries will vent hydrogen but it is in such small amounts that a vented compartment is never found as it would only be a concern in an airtight battery compartment which is not going to be found on any RV or boat or motor vehicle.

When normal charging is taking place, the need for venting is lessoned. However, when a problem causes over charging the need for venting is much greater.

About AGMs and venting.

This is what Boats.com says on the subject (you mention batteries on boats frequently):

Even though your batteries are normally sealed, they actually do have a venting system integrated into the case top. In the event of an overcharge condition, it is possible for excess pressure to build up inside your battery. Your new batteries are equipped with check valves that are engineered to open at between 2-3 PSI depending upon the specific brand. What will be expelled is hydrogen gas, and you want to vent that as it is quite explosive.

As for solar charging your Lithium batteries I'd assume it's more a factor of Lithium batteries accepting a charge so much faster than FLA or AGM batteries. Lead Acid batteries increase their internal electrical resistance as they charge which slows down the charging process the closer the battery gets to fully charged. Lithium batteries do not share this trait and so can charge much faster all the way up to a full charge as set by the BMS.

[Elkman]

The Navion is the first RV that I have encountered that did not have an enclosed battery compartment and the two cab starter batteries in the Mercedes Sprinter are fully enclosed on all sides and there is a cover plate as well which in turn is covered by the floor mat. You may want to give the people at Winnebago the benefit of the doubt but your arguments are in conflict with reality.

I have owned and sailed boats for 40+ years and boat electrical systems have been ahead of those in RVs by years. I was dealing with AGM batteries and solar installations on offshore boats 40 years ago. Boats are much more at risk of an explosion from propane or gas vapors and sparkts and in the event of a fire one cannot call the fire department or even step outside and wait for help. One is very much on their own. As a result the systems installed and the procedures followed are far more rigorous than for any RV.

[mlowe]

Has anyone modified a 2932RL 5th wheel to use lithium batteries? The existing compartment on the side is configured for one battery and the brackets look like they need a welded plate to hold 2 batteries. And maybe even then the brackets might be too light to hold 2 Battle Born lithiums.
A simple alternative might be to just install brackets in the forward storage area. This is adjacent to the current battery compartment and seems simple to just run new battery leads into this compartment.

Help, I figure someone has had the same issue with Winnebago 5th wheels.

[Elkman]

The lithium phoosphate batteries weigh half as much as the lead acid ones so weight it not a concern. Best if you add additional batteries close to the existing one to minimize current loss from a long cable run. With a slide-in camper I owned there was only space of a single Group 31 battery and so I welded together a cage to hold a second battery under the floor and with the AGM batteries the second one could be on its side. Today I would replace the AGM with a lithium as step one.

An AGM or flooded battery is best discharged only 50% so one gets 50 AH out of a standard battery. With a lithium phosphate battery the discharge can be far great and at 20% SOC it can provide 80 AH or 60% more charge for RV use. What counts then is how much charge can be replenished during the day.

The other good thing about the lithium phosphate battery is that it can be recharged at a much higher rate to take advantage of available daylight with solar panels and to also reduce charging time with a generator.

I would measure the space where the single battery is located and see whether a larger battery can be put in its place. With my camper there was enough space to replace a Group 24 battery with a group 31 size battery. Along those lines, the Lithionics battery is Group 31 size and provides 125 AH or 25% more than with a Battle Born or similar lithium battery. More expensive but if space is in short supply they are worth the premium.

https://lithionicsbattery.com/produc...h-g31-battery/

One big advantage of a trailer is that usually there is a lot more real estate on the roof for adding solar panels, including the larger size very high output panels. With our motorhome I switched the flooded batteries for Lithionics one and I added an additional 290 Watts of solar panels to the roof (as much as there was room available).

[mlowe]

Originally Posted by Elkman

The lithium phoosphate batteries weigh half as much as the lead acid ones so weight it not a concern. Best if you add additional batteries close to the existing one to minimize current loss from a long cable run. With a slide-in camper I owned there was only space of a single Group 31 battery and so I welded together a cage to hold a second battery under the floor and with the AGM batteries the second one could be on its side. Today I would replace the AGM with a lithium as step one.

An AGM or flooded battery is best discharged only 50% so one gets 50 AH out of a standard battery. With a lithium phosphate battery the discharge can be far great and at 20% SOC it can provide 80 AH or 60% more charge for RV use. What counts then is how much charge can be replenished during the day.

The other good thing about the lithium phosphate battery is that it can be recharged at a much higher rate to take advantage of available daylight with solar panels and to also reduce charging time with a generator.

I would measure the space where the single battery is located and see whether a larger battery can be put in its place. With my camper there was enough space to replace a Group 24 battery with a group 31 size battery. Along those lines, the Lithionics battery is Group 31 size and provides 125 AH or 25% more than with a Battle Born or similar lithium battery. More expensive but if space is in short supply they are worth the premium.

https://lithionicsbattery.com/produc...h-g31-battery/

One big advantage of a trailer is that usually there is a lot more real estate on the roof for adding solar panels, including the larger size very high output panels. With our motorhome I switched the flooded batteries for Lithionics one and I added an additional 290 Watts of solar panels to the roof (as much as there was room available).

Thank you so much.

Anyone done the dual lithium conversion on the new Voyage 5th Wheel?