2018 Vista 29VE battery solenoid question

[burt6274]

Hi,

I was doing some testing this morning and noticed that the house batteries are NOT being charged when the engine is running.

Chassis battery 14.4V with engine running.

House batteries 12.2V with engine running and heavy load from inverter.

As need as I can tell from the somewhat obtuse Winnebago wiring diagrams there is no battery isolator. Just a battery "mode" solenoid that is located next to the battery shutoff relay behind the DC breaker panel in an outside compartment on the driver's side.

The battery mode solenoid is activated by a dash switch to provide emergency starting boost for a low chassis battery.

I've seen conflicting reports of this solenoid also being activated when the engine is running to bridge between the chassis and house batteries so the alternator can charge the house batteries.

Does anyone have any knowledge of how/if the house batteries are charged from the alternator in the 2018 Vista 29VE?

Thanks,
Burt

[Morich]

You are correct on a number of things! One is that the drawings for your post 2010 model are far less than for RV before 2010 and they do not give the good wire by wire info of a real schematic drawing, so we are left to guess more!

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...017/194158.pdf

But looking at this drawing sheet two, there are some things I can point out to clear some doubts you have about the mode solenoid.

Looking at that drawing and this chart, we can get some clues:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf
This chart "decodes" the wire ID which is stamped on the wires as well as used on the drawings.

If you spot the wire labeled LR on the mode selenoid on sheet two, then look at the decoder chart, you find that wire comes from the aux start or boost switch on the dash. This drawing doesn't show it but we also know that there is a connection from part of the automotive /chassis wiring that shows this LR also has a connection to an ignition connection which is hot when engine is running! So LR brings battery down to the mode solenoid both when we push the momentary switch OR when the engine is running!

LR is the "control lead" to operate the solenoid both when we push the button to get a "boost" for a weak start battery or to operate it as we want to tie the two battery strings together to charge the coach batteries a touch as we drive to the next site!

On your model, the battery voltage from LR is connected inside the solenoid and goes to ground through the metal case to the mounting screws. Other models have a second control lead to provide ground. If shopping for a replacement, there will be two types of solenoid found, 3 wire as yours or 4 wire as others use.

When LR is hot, it makes the coil inside the solenoid operate to close the contacts connectedto the big lugs on each side. That is where I've marked coach battery in red and start battery in green and they get connected inside the solenoid when it operates! Clear as mud and not always on the drawings!

Some tests that you can do with a meter?
Check by feel or listen for the solenoid moving when buttton is pushed. If not check the next two steps.

Make sure the LR is getting 12 volts when the button is held in and also when the engine is running. No signal, the solenoid won't work!

Also take LR off and test that small lug and you should see ground there. IF no ground through the metal case, solenoid won't move.

What we often find is that this solenoid takes a real beating as it operates every time we start the engine and the contacts get burned or corredoed often.
So if the solenoid is moving but the voltages on left and right big lugs is not the same, think bad contacts inside the solenoid.
But another frequent fault is dirty cables between the batteries and the big lugs as there are lots of connections toget dirty along those two paths. Test asnd compare the voltage readings at the battery terminals and the big solenoid connections for being the same. If they are much different, like a volt or two, look at all the connections along the path!

This is the battery color for the tape on the cables---if still there to help ID them.

Good luck and hope this clears a few points?

[burt6274]

Thanks Richard,

I'm pretty familiar with high current relays/solenoids, but good for the reminder about the contacts possibly being burned.

I'm going to try one other quick test before pulling the breaker panel out.

I'll monitor the house batteries and press the boost switch on the dash. If the house battery voltage increases then that would imply that the solenoid is OK, but the connection from the ignition is where the problem is.

I expect that it is the solenoid, as you say it is getting energized each time the engine is running.

Thanks again for the clarification, and the road map to tracking down the connections.

Burt

[Morich]

Yes, it is always good to do some testing. Lots of times we think first of something failing like the solenoid but what I find in lots of cases is that the cables are dirty.

I had a 2015 Vista and one of the big items for me was to chase down why it would not start, even when the battery was good! A big suprise was a "mega-fuse" that was mounted on the outside of the frame, just behind the front wheel! Bad place for a set of connections as it was about the wettest place around any time it rained and it got constant road splash, but the tricky part was it had a number of cables running through the area and should have been easy to spot but it had a rubber sheild over it and I often looked but never actually saw it.

I got as far as crawling under to the starter and finding 12+ at the battery but only 8 at the starter, so I had to try to chase that cable all the way back under the RV, until I got to the spot I could see really easy if I just looked behind the front tire! Cleaned both connections on that mega fuse and got good power to start!

Something like this with a rubber cover and lots of road oil and dirt and I just can't see it!
https://www.autozone.com/electrical-...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

Add:
If your solenoid is like mine and outside behind the breaker panel, That puts it pretty close under the driver and I was able to push the dash button and hear it "thump" when it moved if it was a quiet place. I never got around to needing the breaker panel out as the cables can be reached on the battery end to do the test there instead of being right on the solenoid. So if we look at the coach battery voltage, hit the switch and get a different reading because both sets are connected together, we can say we don't have to get to the solenoid right now!

Drawing info from this site:
https://catalog3d.winnebagoind.com/menu/Parts.htm

[creativepart]

That solenoid is somewhat known to fail and the easiest fix is to replace it.

You are correct - the solenoid combines the house and chassis batteries together when the ignition is on. Letting the alternator charge both banks. The solenoid must be energized for it to work, so you might test it with a multi-meter to be certain it is getting power.

Many replace that solenoid with a different brand that is more reliable and not as prone to failure. The Cole Hersee is the one I hear most folks like best.

I found this description of it's operation here:

The solenoid energizes and pushes up a copper bar that makes the connection between the two batteries. Over time the bar and the connection points in the solenoid get burned and pitted from connecting and disconnecting under load. The greater the voltage difference between the two batteries the more the bar burns and pits, until there is not a good connection between the two. This is the mode of solenoid failure.
With the solenoid energized the voltage should be the same on each large cable end.

[burt6274]

Thanks all,

I'm pretty sure that I'll find that the solenoid is bad, and thanks to the pointer to Cole Hersee as a suggested better replacement. I'll see if I can track down a suitable part #.

[Morich]

Since your Rv has the solenoid in the same place as the 2015 Vista, I suggest looking long and hard for alternates to changing it!

I found mine to look pretty simple. Just tanke the cover off, move the breaker panel down and out if it has enough wire length to spare and go towork on the solenoid back in it's little cubby!
But when starting, removing the cover was not an easy go as the compartment door was not aligned just right, so that taking one screw out required sawing off a stubby screwdriver shorter than any I had every used! To close for an offset/angled screwdriver and then once I got the screw moving, the screw itself was too long to come fully out and that left me thinking I was going to have to cut the screw shorter but with the question of what I was going to use to reattach it if I tore that screw up and short enough to get in the hole and started was going to be too short to work????

The obviously built the breaker and solenoid compartment before they put the outside skin on the RV! One might hope you have different but Somewhere along figuring what to do with the screw problem, I figured out how to test the solenoid without actually getting to the solenoid!
I could feel and hear it move and the cables just go back to the batteries, so I moved the testing there for ease of that part.

Your situation may be just a half inch different than mine but I do suggest testing before trying to pull the breaker panel, etc to get hands on the solenoid----until you really have to do it!

For shopping, I would first look for one which is the same post arrangement (3 versus 4) for ease of wiring back and then I just go for specs, rather than name as mechanical stuffand where it is made is constantly changing, so I have no confidence that a good item bought last year will still be good if I buy one today!

I look for continuous duty and the higher amp rating for this one. Those I have seen torn down look like the contacts are just the copper bolt the passes for the big lugs, is just metal with the end run under a press to mash them flat and wider on the inner end before they are poured into the epoxy/plastic/ whatever of the body!
Local auto parts for best shopping?

I'm still favoring finding a dirty connection as the easy way out! But then I'm not the one crawling around looking for that dirt! Good luck??

NAH! If you had good luck, you wouldn't have the problem......

[edju]

Guys, thanks to Morich and Creativepart for all the info. I always learn something with your replies. I've got a 2018 Sunstar 29VE and have a similar set up. Good Luck Burt with finding your problem. Please post a reply with the results.
Thanks,
Ed

[burt6274]

OK, thanks.

Yes the breaker panel is a bit of a pain to remove. I was able to catch the screw on the left side with the screwdriver at a slight angle. The one on the right was a straight shot.

Then you have to slide the panel to one side a bit being aware that there are live bus bars that you don't want to touch the frame.. In my case it was sliding slightly to the left. Then I could pull the panel out.

I was able to rest the panel on the frame checked the chassis and house sides of the solenoid. Verified proper voltage on each side, checked the cable connections and all were clean and tight in the panel box. The other ends in the main battery compartment were also clean and tight.

Started the engine and checked. The solenoid was not bridging between the chassis and house batteries. Since the control terminal has 14 volts (engine running and charging battery) I'm concluding that the solenoid is indeed toast. For good measure I measured between the solenoid case and the ground point I used for my other measurements and as expected it was 0 volts. So most likely the solenoid coil has burned out. Or possibly the contacts are too pitted, but I didn't hear the solenoid click when the control voltage was applied.

[Morich]

Originally Posted by burt6274

OK, thanks.

Yes the breaker panel is a bit of a pain to remove. I was able to catch the screw on the left side with the screwdriver at a slight angle. The one on the right was a straight shot.

Then you have to slide the panel to one side a bit being aware that there are live bus bars that you don't want to touch the frame.. In my case it was sliding slightly to the left. Then I could pull the panel out.

I was able to rest the panel on the frame checked the chassis and house sides of the solenoid. Verified proper voltage on each side, checked the cable connections and all were clean and tight in the panel box. The other ends in the main battery compartment were also clean and tight.

Started the engine and checked. The solenoid was not bridging between the chassis and house batteries. Since the control terminal has 14 volts (engine running and charging battery) I'm concluding that the solenoid is indeed toast. For good measure I measured between the solenoid case and the ground point I used for my other measurements and as expected it was 0 volts. So most likely the solenoid coil has burned out. Or possibly the contacts are too pitted, but I didn't hear the solenoid click when the control voltage was applied.

Okay, with that info, it does osund like the solenoid for a couple reasons. some more checking may be worthwhile, just to check your check?

But if you are not hearing/feeling it move, I'm guessing it isn't! This is kind of a big bulky thing inside and kind of like a half dollar sixed plate metal on the end of a metal shaft. When the electromagnetic gets power, it slaps that half dollar up/ down again the big contacts at the ends of the big threaded lugs. So it is not a tiny little set of contacts that click but more like you dropped something and I can expect to hear it inside.

But being paranoid is often good, so if you take the small control wire off the small center lug and look for ground on the lug, there should be ground showing but with some added resistance from the solenoid coil? What I'm pressing on is that the power from the switch or ignition while running has to get to the solenoid and you are seeing that BUT it also hasto go through the coil and to ground. So if there is dirt/corrosion on the mounting to make that path open, the solenoid won't work, even though it is getting the signal!

But then it is very true that the shaft may be worn or gummed up inside the solenoid and everything is right but it is just plain stuck!

I've seen guys take it apart and try to file the pitted points but I'm not one to go that far because once they are burned, they burn pretty quick the next time and the trauma of getting to one is not something I want to do again in six months to save a few dollars now!

Beating that metal cover off a starter solenoid was fun when I was 16 and broke, not so much now!

[burt6274]

Thanks,

Effectively I checked for bad grounding of the solenoid, even though everything is nice and shinny, no corrosion, everything is tight and secure, etc.

By measuring between the case of the solenoid and chassis ground, at the same ground point I used when checking voltages I was able to confirm that there is no potential difference between the solenoid case and ground. If the solenoid case was not making a solid connection with ground then there would measurable potential between the case and the ground reference. I could do an additional check by removing the control wire and measuring the resistance, but at this point there appears to be 3 possibilities:

1 - The coil is burned out, probably most likely.
2 - The solenoid is stuck in the open position, possible but not as likely as it would be that the contacts welded leaving it stuck in the "on" position. And from measurements that is not the case.
3 - Maybe the case has somehow become insulated from ground, but measuring between the solenoid case and ground pretty much confirms that is not the case.

In any case, given that these solenoids have a history of failing, it won't hurt to replace it/

[Morich]

Sounds like you have done the duty and got it right.
One of the big things with forums and not able to set down and talk it over, is that we never know if the other guy has ever been on this type of chase before!

[burt6274]

Yes, I was pretty sure it would come down to the solenoid, but the thing that wasn't clear from the wiring diagram was if indeed there was a tie in to the ignition in the run position.

Had Winnebago included that nugget in the wiring chart then I would have gone there first

Haven't had too many issues with MH so far. Bought used from Lazydays about a year ago.

Been a few small things but handled those myself. Over all the MH was in very good condition with about 20K miles on it, but enough generator time so it had been used enough to break it in.

Already had anti-sway bars front and back as well as steering stabilizer. like new interior, and only a few minor dings here and there exterior wise.

Just wanted to make sure that the coach batteries were being charged when needed while traveling.

[Morich]

Agree on the drawing lack of giving the full picture. They have this idea that the things found on the stripped chassis they buy are not things that they need to support with drawings! so when we get into that grey zone where the things they add like the coach batteries may meet the chassis part, they do leave us wondering.

A number of places, I found a cable shown from the solenoid to an "isolated stud" and I find figured out that had to be where the chassis battery connected! There is no mention of what that stud did, nor what was connected to the other side. What info does " isolated" give?

But, after owning a number of other RV, I decided Winnebago DOES beat some others by a long shot!
I had a Thor and call customer service as there were NO online drawings and asked where the other end of a coax might be found. They told me the layout was just "generic" and they did not have drawingsto tell them where the other end went. I thought it might have been okay just to tell me to go away. At least that would have felt honest!

[burt6274]

Yes, from what I've seen even as poor as they are in some respects the Winnebago docs are better than what I've seen from Thor.

This is kind of our first motorhome, although many years ago I bought a very used Champion class A that needed a lot of work. Only paid $7500 for it, and did most of the work myself including new brakes, etc. did a few trips from NY to FL with it and then sold it for what I had in it. That was so long ago that it kind of doesn't count now.

This one was in much better shape but still had to fix a few things along the way that the dealer didn't catch and I didn't find during the PDI. Fortunately nothing major. A bad crimp on the flexible hose fitting for the output of the water pump. Had a very slow ooze. Lazydays gave me a new fitting, and that fitting was a much tighter fit even before I clamped it.

Slow leak when using the shower. Turned out that the fittings on the shower drain weren't tight. So that was an easy fix.

The other was a small crack in the outer skylight on the shower. Drilled a stop hole, did a plastic weld on the crack and then sealed over that.

The biggest issue we had develop was the Kwikee step would not shut off when fully extended, until the safety timer in the controller expired. Got an after market motor/gearbox and that worked for about 10 extension cycles then same thing.

Got a warranty replacement and that failed immediately.

Talked with Lippert and they said the controller wants to see 10 amps draw which is how it knows to turn off the motor. But never saw the current draw go much above 8 amps.

The Nylon gear was NOT stripped, it was just skipping. And only on extension.

Lippert said maybe the controller was bad so changed that out, but no fix there. Then thought maybe there was some significant difference with the Lippert OEM motor so tried that, no joy.

Finally I designed a secondary controller that uses a magnetic sensor to detect when the steps are fully extended. Then I interrupt the power to the motor, so it doesn't keep trying to run past full extension. The original controller will time out and remove power from the motor circuit which now includes my controller, so everything resets for when the steps retract.

Tested it on our last long trip and it is working flawlessly. The other benefit to this is that because it doesn't rely on the motor stall current it isn't trying to chew up the plastic gear.

And if for some reason my controller should fail it's easy to bypass it. And it doesn't override any safety features of the Lippert/Kwikee controller.

That was the biggest issue we've had with the MH.

Other than a new issue with the generator not wanting to run reliably, sometimes. I suspect that is the fuel pump and it's going to be replaced tomorrow.

[Morich]

Right along with you on having the experience with rebuilding old ones.
Too many terrible tales to tell but it has been a learning experience as some were so near gone that anything I did kept them alive. The worst was one bought and rebuilt for taking a pair of elderly who refused to fly all the way to LA for their grandson's graduation.

Sold it when we got back as the shower stall tended to bulge the outside wall on corners!

Some help sites in case you've not found them yet:
Parts as it can help to find the correct names and sometimes it helps to look at pictures of how things might come apart:
https://catalog3d.winnebagoind.com/menu/Parts.htm

Plumbing as a frequent item:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...m/Plumbing.htm

And the famous wiring info:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ram/Wiring.htm

Don't be too quick to skip over anything listed below the years on each group as there is a lot of good info on details that can help a whole bunch.

Tip on plastic plumbing? I now add a bit of silicone caulk when I put any threaded fitting back as it seems like the heating/cooling tends to make them creep loose and the caulk holds that but still comes off easy enough if I want it loose again.

Good luck and happy bug hunting!!

[MadMaxWinny]

I'm a little late to the game, but I decided to forego all of this headache by the simple installation of a combiner, which does the work of a solenoid but for all charge sources (alternator, charger, solar), is far more sophisticated in terms of connect/disconnect threshold voltages (user adjustable), and has no appreciable voltage losses.

[burt6274]

What combiner did you wind up installing? I've been thinking about that route as well.

I tested the solenoid and confirmed that indeed it was bad.

I had the MH in to the shop for some other service and had them replace the solenoid, that worked great until I got home and it appears that they got the wrong type of solenoid and the coil is burned out again. The shop is quite good and they deal with changing this type of solenoid a lot, so either they got a defective one, or the supplier sent them a non-continuous duty part.

So I have to take it back to have them replace the solenoid again, making sure that the one they use is rated for continuous duty.

But longer term I'm thinking about the combiner route.

Thanks,

[MadMaxWinny]

Hi Burt,

I've used several over the years, but I really like the Magnum. I've installed that in the RV, as well as one on the boat and one in a friend's van:

https://www.westmarine.com/battery-combiners/

[creativepart]

Madmaxwinny, that’s a bad link. I’d fix it for you but don’t know which combiner yo want to link to.