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05-14-2007, 06:06 AM
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#1
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Back at the ranch
Posts: 2,041
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Not literally rusty, but our camping skills have certainly suffered in the six months we have been parked. Our trip turned out to be a test for us as well as the coach.
We left early yesterday for Las Cruces which is a good 500 mile run on a mostly isolated stretch of I-10. This allowed us to get some low-stress drive time to refresh our driving skills.
It was really nice to be back on the road and we and the cats were nicely settled in for the nine hour drive. After a couple of hours I noticed the generator had started (we have the Xantrex Auto Gen Start) for some reason. I remembered this was sporadically occurring last year but I never followed up on the issue.
I stopped the generator and some hours later we checked the batteries (as is normal practice) and found the house batteries were way, way down. The gen start must have been triggered by a low voltage situation for the house batteries (which is how I have it programmed.) The reason for the house batteries not being charged by the engine alternator is most likely due to another bad charging/bridging solenoid (which was replaced last fall .)
Okay - no big deal - we'll deal with that problem later! We started the generator to charge the batteries and by that time it was 91 degrees out and we cranked up the basement AC.
While this was going on, our Howard Power Center Steering was acting up. This is the steering centering device we had added several months ago. The pump wouldn't cut off; after some fiddling with the pressure control it started working again.
I was driving and pulled into a very busy Flying J in El Paso at the back of the property - somehow I missed the "official" entrance. There was enough maneuvering room to get things sorted out and lined up for a truck pump. I was occupied when it was time to move up for fueling so Jane jumped in the driver's seat and pulled up a little too far in the pump island. It was now impossible to operate the pump while looking at the gallons being pumped. Refueling then became a two-person job with me operating the pump and Jane calling out the gallons pumped. We finished refueling and drove around to the scales since I was anxious to see what the coach weighed after we quit fulltiming and unloaded a bunch of stuff. To my surprise our front axle was 11,940 (only 60 pounds under gross) and the rear axle 19,500 (a nice 500 pounds under gross.) Time to shift more things to the rear if possible.
After we left El Paso, CoPilot (our GPS navigator software) was reporting our destination to be over an hour away; we didn't think that could be right since we have been here before and we calculated the remaining distance to be about 15 miles! I told Jane to forget about CoPilot, we will navigate the old fashioned way with a paper map. Finally CoPilot got its act together and said we were ten minutes away. I suppose CoPilot is a little rusty like us.
We get to the campground and get settled in. When it was shower time, Jane opens the door and turns on the water not paying attention to where the shower wand was pointed. After spraying the tile floor (and her face) with a goodly amount of water, she recovered from water shock and shut the water off.
Sometime in the middle of the night, the generator started again - I forgot that I did not have the typical quiet hours programmed in the AGS so the gen set was free to start whenever it dang well wanted. I now have it programmed so it can only run during the day; until I figure out what is triggering the start, I might disable the auto start altogether.
The adventure continues....
__________________
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
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05-14-2007, 06:06 AM
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#2
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Back at the ranch
Posts: 2,041
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Not literally rusty, but our camping skills have certainly suffered in the six months we have been parked. Our trip turned out to be a test for us as well as the coach.
We left early yesterday for Las Cruces which is a good 500 mile run on a mostly isolated stretch of I-10. This allowed us to get some low-stress drive time to refresh our driving skills.
It was really nice to be back on the road and we and the cats were nicely settled in for the nine hour drive. After a couple of hours I noticed the generator had started (we have the Xantrex Auto Gen Start) for some reason. I remembered this was sporadically occurring last year but I never followed up on the issue.
I stopped the generator and some hours later we checked the batteries (as is normal practice) and found the house batteries were way, way down. The gen start must have been triggered by a low voltage situation for the house batteries (which is how I have it programmed.) The reason for the house batteries not being charged by the engine alternator is most likely due to another bad charging/bridging solenoid (which was replaced last fall .)
Okay - no big deal - we'll deal with that problem later! We started the generator to charge the batteries and by that time it was 91 degrees out and we cranked up the basement AC.
While this was going on, our Howard Power Center Steering was acting up. This is the steering centering device we had added several months ago. The pump wouldn't cut off; after some fiddling with the pressure control it started working again.
I was driving and pulled into a very busy Flying J in El Paso at the back of the property - somehow I missed the "official" entrance. There was enough maneuvering room to get things sorted out and lined up for a truck pump. I was occupied when it was time to move up for fueling so Jane jumped in the driver's seat and pulled up a little too far in the pump island. It was now impossible to operate the pump while looking at the gallons being pumped. Refueling then became a two-person job with me operating the pump and Jane calling out the gallons pumped. We finished refueling and drove around to the scales since I was anxious to see what the coach weighed after we quit fulltiming and unloaded a bunch of stuff. To my surprise our front axle was 11,940 (only 60 pounds under gross) and the rear axle 19,500 (a nice 500 pounds under gross.) Time to shift more things to the rear if possible.
After we left El Paso, CoPilot (our GPS navigator software) was reporting our destination to be over an hour away; we didn't think that could be right since we have been here before and we calculated the remaining distance to be about 15 miles! I told Jane to forget about CoPilot, we will navigate the old fashioned way with a paper map. Finally CoPilot got its act together and said we were ten minutes away. I suppose CoPilot is a little rusty like us.
We get to the campground and get settled in. When it was shower time, Jane opens the door and turns on the water not paying attention to where the shower wand was pointed. After spraying the tile floor (and her face) with a goodly amount of water, she recovered from water shock and shut the water off.
Sometime in the middle of the night, the generator started again - I forgot that I did not have the typical quiet hours programmed in the AGS so the gen set was free to start whenever it dang well wanted. I now have it programmed so it can only run during the day; until I figure out what is triggering the start, I might disable the auto start altogether.
The adventure continues....
__________________
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
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05-14-2007, 07:07 AM
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#3
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,817
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Hi John,
I'm very interested in anything you figure out about the Xantrex Auto Gen Start, since I'm getting ready to install one myself.
-Chris
__________________
Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
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05-14-2007, 07:40 AM
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#4
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 2,169
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Well you folks are certainly off to an interesting start . I guess that's why we call it the 'RV Adventure.' Gotta love this hobby. Maybe the coach is just being a litte rebelious for letting her sit so long.
Travel safe.
__________________
'07 Country Coach Allure 470 Siskiyou Summit #31578, Cummins ISL 425; 2014 Ford F150 toad; Air Force One Toad Brake.
Glen Allen, VA; Smith Mountain Lake, VA.
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05-14-2007, 08:13 AM
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#5
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Posts: 334
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John I guess its good for those of us that are new to motorhomes to hear that even a seasoned veteran to it still runs into issues.
__________________
2007 Winnebago Sightseer 35J
2007 Four Winns Horizon 190 Bowrider
2011 Jeep Wrangler Sahara Unlimited
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05-14-2007, 10:22 AM
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#6
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 90
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Hi John and Jane glad to see that your are back having fun again. I missed all the fun post that you guys always added here.
I noticed that you and Jane are going to be in VT some tme soon what part of VT are you going to and when do you think you are going to be there. Wife and are also thinking of going back to VT for some of the freash air they have we have not been back there at all with the motorhome but always made time to go there when we had the popup. Maybe we can get an eyeball on each other if we are in the area at the same time.
Heres hopping to see you guy's some time
Mark and Joanne Bento
__________________
Mark & Joanne Bento
FMCA Member
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05-14-2007, 10:45 AM
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#7
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Seaford, VA
Posts: 1,046
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John, you and Jane are just the folks to use the rust remover...Foibles of Life, is what keeps us young.
__________________
Happy Trails! ICHN2GO, Seaford VA,
06, 34 Newmar Ventana
02 Jeep Liberty
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05-14-2007, 11:30 AM
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#8
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Back at the ranch
Posts: 2,041
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cbeierl:
Hi John,
I'm very interested in anything you figure out about the Xantrex Auto Gen Start, since I'm getting ready to install one myself.
-Chris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Chris - I now remember the scenario we had with it last year. The AGS is triggering on what it thinks is a low voltage threshold I programmed. Either I have the trigger parameters all messed up, or there is a problem with the logic somewhere. When we were in Alaska, the charger part of the system was not displaying the proper stage of the charging process. It is supposed to be bulk-absorb-float depending on the battery voltage and perhaps some other criteria. I think it was telling me it was in absorb when it was clearly in the float mode.
I discussed this with Xantrex support and they wanted me to update the firmware and see how it acted. After making arrangements with the only Xantrex dealer on mainland Alaska, we couldn't get to Fairbanks for the upgrade since we had another problem to deal with in Anchorage. I need to get on the stick and get the upgrade done and see if that sorts out the issues.
Mark - not sure what part of VT we will be in; haven't firmed up that part of the trip as yet.
__________________
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
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05-14-2007, 02:37 PM
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#9
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 146
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Glad to see you two are back on the road again, it's time for us as well. We leave for "Mule Days" (Bishop CA) on the 21st for a week or so. It will be good to get back in the big seat again.
Best regards to you both
__________________
Vectra 40 AD (2004) and towing
PT Cruiser, GMC ZR5 4x4 Quad Cab
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05-14-2007, 05:00 PM
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#10
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 358
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John, Jane enjoy your trip. It looks like you have quite a trip planned out again.
I recently finished installing a Xantrex EC20 monitor. I can now see how many amps have been drawn out of the batery from a full charge.
I discharged the bateeries slowly over a couple of days to so that 50% of the amps were consumed and was curious wat the battery voltage would be at that level.
It was down to 10.0 volts with about a 3 amp load on it. At this voltage the generator would not start anymore despite the battreries being only discharged to 50%.
The lowest voltage that the AGS will autostart on is 10.5V. When you are recharging your battteries via the AGS operation it only recharges (Bulk recharge)your batteries to about 80% in the approx. the two hours that it runs. So if are able to discharge to 50% and stop recharging at 80% it leaves you at best with 30% of your total battery capacity.
I am now thinking of changing the generator to start from the chassis batteries if I want to be able to at least have 30% of my battery capacity available when there is no shore power.
If I don't make that change I believe that the battery capacity for use will be less that 20% and I will be listning to a lot of generator run time. This may also partially explain why your generator kicks in often just as mine was doing. But it sounds like you first have to resolve the charging problem from the altenator.
__________________
Harry
2015 Tuscany 40 KQ
2013 Honda CR-V
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05-14-2007, 05:55 PM
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#11
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,817
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Harry B:
...
I recently finished installing a Xantrex EC20 monitor... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is that actually the Cummins Onan EC20 you're talking about, Harry?
__________________
Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
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05-14-2007, 06:34 PM
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#12
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 358
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by Harry B:
...
I recently finished installing a Xantrex EC20 monitor...
That's actually the Cummins Onan EC20 you're talking about, isn't it Harry? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chris,
You are partly correct. I did install the Onan EC30 but what what I should have said in my previous reply was that I was using the Xantrex Link 20 to measure actual amps drawn from the batteries. Thanks for point that out.
__________________
Harry
2015 Tuscany 40 KQ
2013 Honda CR-V
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05-15-2007, 12:37 PM
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#13
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Back at the ranch
Posts: 2,041
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Harry B:
--snip--
The lowest voltage that the AGS will autostart on is 10.5V. --snip </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Harry - I would never on purpose discharge the battery to less than 11.9 or 12.0 volts. about 12.1-12.3 volts voltage at rest is a battery that is about 50% discharged. That's not good on the battery and it could lead to premature failure. I think I have my AGS programmed to trigger a gen start on a house battery voltage of 11.9 volts. I was playing around with the parameters in Alaska last summer when we did a bit of boondocking and as I recall 11.9 volts was a good compromise (or was it 12.0?)
I have never ever had a problem starting the gen set even though one of my chassis batteries was bad (probably marginally bad because it would still start the Cummins.) You can also bridge the battery banks to get the gen set started.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C Zimm:
Glad to see you two are back on the road again, it's time for us as well. We leave for "Mule Days" (Bishop CA) on the 21st for a week or so. It will be good to get back in the big seat again.
Best regards to you both </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Cliff and hey to Mary from us!
__________________
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
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05-15-2007, 12:44 PM
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#14
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 530
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Good to see you back on the road. Why do you need to see gallons pumped while pumping fuel? Do you try to leave just a small amount in it when you park for a while?
Jim
__________________
2011 Mobiles Suites, 2011 Chevy 3500 Dually
Our Webpage
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05-15-2007, 01:51 PM
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#15
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Back at the ranch
Posts: 2,041
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Jim - maybe your 2007 doesn't have the problem, but the 2004, 2005 and maybe the 2006 Horizon/Vectra's will never fill their diesel tank to 100% full unless you trickle in the last 10 to 15 gallons - thanks to my VMSpc gauge system running on the laptop, I know within 2 or 3 gallons how much fuel I will need so it is important to see the pump readout.
It is a situation that drives me crazy when we are on the road - I spend maybe 20 minutes (no exaggeration) filling the tank while I see two tractor-trailers fill up and leave adjacent to me.
Next winter I am planning on investigating if I can improve the fill situation by eliminating some 90 degree fuel fill elbows.
__________________
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
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05-15-2007, 04:17 PM
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#16
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 530
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Oh, now I see your reason. My 2007 is exactly the same as yours, I figure that if I stop fueling when the nozzle clicks off I have @ 80 ish gallons in the tank. I talked to freightliner about that and they said that winny has 2 choices where to install the filler neck. There is one near the top of the tank and one a couple of inches lower on the tank. Winny chose the lower option due to their chassis configuration. If I am at a smaller diameter nozzle with lower pressure I can get the tank nearly full. If at a truck stop I have to fight to get the last 15 to 20 gallons in as you said. Thanks for the info.
Jim
__________________
2011 Mobiles Suites, 2011 Chevy 3500 Dually
Our Webpage
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05-15-2007, 05:03 PM
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#17
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 358
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would never on purpose discharge the battery to less than 11.9 or 12.0 volts. about 12.1-12.3 volts voltage at rest is a battery that is about 50% discharged </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would never on purpose discharge the battery to less than 11.9 or 12.0 volts. about 12.1-12.3 volts voltage at rest is a battery that is about 50% discharged. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you John that a battery at rest (no load) should not be discharged lower than 12.1 volts, which is the 50% discharge point.
The problem with voltage measurement is that there always seems to be a load present (at least in my coach), unless you switch off the coach batteries via the disconnect switch near the entry door. After installing the Link 20 I discovered some surprising facts.
With the original solar panel cleaned and the sun directly above it and having turned everything off and the master disconnect still on, the batteries are still being discharged by a .4 amp load. When you switch off the coach's master disconnect switch, there is finally zero draw on the coach batteries. With the solar panel inactive (covered up) the discharge increases to .8 amps, so the panel is only compensating for half of the phantom load in the coach. I also was surprised to see that when the inverter/converter is in standby mode and has no output load that it still draws 3.2 amps DC out of the batteries.
So how do you evaluate the batteries state of charge via voltage measurements, when there is always a load present and as such not allowing the batteries to come to rest state.
The bottom line is that it is difficult to get the batteries at rest for 2 hours to get a realistic voltage measurement of their charge status, which is why I decided to add the Link 20, so I could measure amperage being drawn out of the batteries.
I was surprised to see the batteries at 10 volts when the Link 20 indicated the batteries were 50% discharged. I have now seen the relationship between battery voltage and consumed amperage at the 50% discharge point. Which is the more accurate way to determine the status of the batteries? I need some help here understanding batteries. I have a degree in electronics, but batteries were never covered.
__________________
Harry
2015 Tuscany 40 KQ
2013 Honda CR-V
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05-16-2007, 06:17 PM
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#18
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 548
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Harry,
I suggest that you put a digital voltmeter directly on the batteries to get an accurate reading to allow you to calibrate the voltage at the panel. Reading the voltage at the inverter via the panel will be a little lower during discharge and higher during charging. This is because of the voltage drops in the battery cables and fuse. A couple tenths of a volt mean a lot when you're looking for the time to stop the discharge at %50 capacity.
Also check that bolts are tight where the house battery cables tie to the chassis frame ground - on my Winnie they weren't real tight and I was loosing significant voltage during heavy charge/discharge.
I use a cheapy $4 Harbor Freight DVM temporarily connected to the pos/neg terminals of the bat for a while and compare voltage at the various charging conditions. After a while you'll know what the panel voltages really mean relative to the battery voltage. Those DVM's are cheap but surprisingly accurate.
What model inverter are you using? I've noticed that some have pretty high idle current even with no load, while others like the Xantrex RS2000 is <14 watts (~1 amp).
Happy Trails,
Duner
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05-16-2007, 07:08 PM
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#19
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 358
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Duner,
I have already done the calibration check between the One Place meter and the actual voltage at the battery and they are in sync. I have the same Harbor Freight meter as you do along with my trusted Fluke 77 and yes that little $5 meter is surprisingly accurate
The Link 20, which I installed in the One Place panel, requires a direct hookup to the positive and negative side of the house battery terminals. Having these connections present at the One Place panel due to the requirement of the Link 20, allowed me to tie the existing meter of the One Place into those lines as well. This eliminates any voltage drop due to current draws of other devices through the existing wiring to the One Place voltage meter.
The issue is to how to get the batteries at rest to get the voltage reading, which in my coach is not possible, unless I disconnect the batteries from the coach. I can do this with the battery disconnect switch by the entry door, but then I have to reset the clocks on the radios and loose the preset stations etc. a pain in other words
The inverter/converter in my coach is the original unit installed by Winnebago, which is the Dimension 2000. Not a unit I would have chosen, but there were no choices at purchase time. When it dies or I get fed up with dealing with the modified sign wave, I will replace it the Xantrex RS2000. I just need to prioritize purchases, as I have an extensive whish list yet, as far as changes and addition to the coach are concerned.
I guess I have to do some more experimenting. I am going to discharge the batteries again to 50% according to what the Link 20 tells me and I am then going to disconnect the batteries from the coach and let them recover and see at what voltage they finally settle in on. If the theory holds up it should be 12.1 volts. If it is not 12.1 volts then I give up.
__________________
Harry
2015 Tuscany 40 KQ
2013 Honda CR-V
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