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Old 10-06-2021, 02:35 PM   #1
unclescratch
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: NW AZ
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Wink lug nuts, torque & wheel covers

First, Workhorse/Navistar says: 140lbs/ft on lug nuts and Workhorse owner's Manual says: W22 Motorhome 475lbs/ft .
(My GVWR is 20,700; a W20 chassis ??)

Second, I have read conflicting posts describing how the stainless wheel covers are attached. Since I have not removed any of the wheels, it 'appears' 4 lug nuts are holding the wheel covers 'and' wheels on, after 4 lug nuts have been attached to hold the wheels on by themselves first. Four of the lug nut covers are removeable while 4 are permanently attached to the cover itself.

Third, the lug nuts that I can view don't have much thread engagement. The rears have more than 1/2 inch of thread exposed, the fronts slightly less than 1/2 inch of thread exposed. I would expect to see the lug nuts fully engaged with the thread and at least 'some' of the wheel stud thread exposed beyond the lug nut. The nuts themselves are approximately 1-inch tall.

Although I have been a muscle car drag racer, this 'big rig' stuff is pretty new to me. Perhaps if I visited a tire store I could see just what the assembly looks like from hub to hub cap. Am I making this too difficult? Your comments/constructive criticism are welcomed ! Thanks.
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Old 10-09-2021, 05:22 PM   #2
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Fake Lug Nuts

Hello Uncle,

I have the same chassis as you, just a few years newer. My wheel covers were held on by two nuts. The rest of the nuts were fake covers. I think that yours was originally the same. Someone made a change along the way.

Once you get the fake nuts and the SS cover off, you will see the real lug nuts. The real lug nuts on my wheels are torqued to 475 ft-lbs.
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Old 10-09-2021, 06:33 PM   #3
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I have a W20 chassis and my lug nuts have an alarming amount of thread showing.

W20: 20,700#, 19.5" wheels, 30mm lug nuts
W22: 22,000#, 22.5" wheels, 33mm lug nuts

Here's a recent Winnieowners link on replacement lug nut covers:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3906736

And here's a link to some good Workhorse info:

http://www.deserttruckservice.com/pd...ssis.guide.pdf

Note that pg 149 doesn't refer to 30mm lug nuts in terms of torque, so I think more research is required.
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Old 10-10-2021, 07:58 AM   #4
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BobC, your first link - ^above - just leads to this same thread you are posting in.
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Old 10-10-2021, 10:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativepart View Post
BobC, your first link - ^above - just leads to this same thread you are posting in.
Sorry, to many tabs open at the same time:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...rs-362537.html
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Old 10-10-2021, 05:29 PM   #6
unclescratch
 
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JoeSR: So what do you think of my lug nuts that barely go onto the studs??

Don't you think that the 4 lug nuts on my wheels that 'are' exposed are torqued to 475?
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Old 10-10-2021, 05:36 PM   #7
unclescratch
 
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BobC: Since you have also noticed the amount of (or lack of !) engagement between the wheel studs and lug nuts, what are your thoughts, direction forward on this issue??
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:07 AM   #8
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unclescratch,

My knowledge of Workhorse started with the one that I have. Take what I say with that in mind.

Those nuts that you pictured do not capture enough threads to withstand 475 ft-lbs of torque. If they are the only thing that is holding the wheel on, the previous owner made a stupid modification. Assuming he did not, those nuts could only be holding the SS (stainless steel) wheel cover on (low torque). The real working lug nuts are underneath.

My lug nuts have "450-500 FT LBS" stamped into them. A 33mm socket fits them. The stud is 21.75mm in diameter.

Manufacturers make changes all the time. So, yours could be different.

If you are still scratching your head, I will post a picture.
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Old 10-12-2021, 03:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSR View Post
unclescratch,

My knowledge of Workhorse started with the one that I have. Take what I say with that in mind.

Those nuts that you pictured do not capture enough threads to withstand 475 ft-lbs of torque. If they are the only thing that is holding the wheel on, the previous owner made a stupid modification. Assuming he did not, those nuts could only be holding the SS (stainless steel) wheel cover on (low torque). The real working lug nuts are underneath.

My lug nuts have "450-500 FT LBS" stamped into them. A 33mm socket fits them. The stud is 21.75mm in diameter.

Manufacturers make changes all the time. So, yours could be different.

If you are still scratching your head, I will post a picture.
I think you're probably right, and, if so, it explains a lot. I don't know why I was running around in circles. Thanks for chiming in.
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Old 10-12-2021, 06:09 PM   #10
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I don't have a wrench big enough to remove my 30mm nuts but I measured the inside diameter (minus the threads) and they seem to be compatible with a 22mm stud (close enough to JoeSR's 21.75mm).

Page 149 of the Workhorse Chassis guide states "the W series, 20,700 lb, 22,000 lb and 24,000 lb GVWR chassis have an 8 hole wheel with 22mm wheel studs, 33mm lug nut and requires 475 lb ft torque."

I was thrown by our 30mm nut size but, if that's just the nut holding the wheel cover in place, I'm guessing that the underlying true lug nut will be 33mm, matching the 22mm wheel stud. Hopefully the underlying lug nuts are stamped so as to remove all doubt.

http://deserttruckservice.com/pdf%20...ssis.guide.pdf

unclescratch, time to get out your wrenches, remove the wheel cover and confirm all this for us.
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Old 10-13-2021, 03:53 PM   #11
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Well. So far I have made one complete circle chasing my tail ! "unclescratch, time to get out your wrenches, remove the wheel cover and confirm all this for us." I guess so. That will have me purchase all the tools, torque multiplier, etc. and do the work. Work doesn't frighten me as much as buying the 'right tool for the job' at a fair price. Could it be that 4 of my lug nuts are fully engaged w/the studs & @475 lbs.ft. ??? Stay tuned for....'The rest of the story'.......
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Old 10-13-2021, 04:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclescratch View Post
Well. So far I have made one complete circle chasing my tail ! "unclescratch, time to get out your wrenches, remove the wheel cover and confirm all this for us." I guess so. That will have me purchase all the tools, torque multiplier, etc. and do the work. Work doesn't frighten me as much as buying the 'right tool for the job' at a fair price. Could it be that 4 of my lug nuts are fully engaged w/the studs & @475 lbs.ft. ??? Stay tuned for....'The rest of the story'.......
The four exposed nuts holding the wheel cover aren't lug nuts and shouldn't be torqued very tight. Unless a tire installer went crazy in tightening them, you should be able to remove them with a crescent wrench (and maybe a hammer) in lieu of a 30mm wrench. Once you've removed them and the wheel cover you should find 8 actual lug nuts, most likely 33mm. Hopefully they're stamped with the correct torque so it's visible.
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Old 10-13-2021, 04:49 PM   #13
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Scratch...I see you are in AZ. Any convenient Les Schwab's in your neck of the woods. I went to one of my local LS that also does Big Rigs. I got quite an education (along with a new set of tires). Apparently, there is a great deal of misunderstanding out there regarding torque specs.
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Old 10-13-2021, 05:13 PM   #14
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You may also be interested in this thread:

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...re-361807.html
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Old 10-13-2021, 05:49 PM   #15
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A 1 1/8" socket is supposed to fit the 30mm nuts. Theoretically they should only be torqued to 40 ft lbs but I guess tire installers are notorious for tightening them more. One owner posted that he removes them and the wheel covers before taking his MH in for tires so he can re-install them.
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Old 10-13-2021, 09:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclescratch View Post
Well. So far I have made one complete circle chasing my tail ! "unclescratch, time to get out your wrenches, remove the wheel cover and confirm all this for us." I guess so. That will have me purchase all the tools, torque multiplier, etc. and do the work. Work doesn't frighten me as much as buying the 'right tool for the job' at a fair price. Could it be that 4 of my lug nuts are fully engaged w/the studs & @475 lbs.ft. ??? Stay tuned for....'The rest of the story'.......

There should be about a half inch or so of stud sticking out from the eight lugs with two to four of them used with light duty nuts to hold the wheel covers/simulators over the lug nuts. When you remove the similator nuts and remove the simulators you will find the eight lug nuts underneath. There should be a light duty T-Handled tool provided with the coach for removing the nuts under the false caps which most times are dimpled to identify them and should not need to be separated from the simulator retaining nuts. Unfortunately too many tire techs use their impact wrenches to install the simulator retaining nuts making the job more difficult since the correct tool then won't be able to remove them.

I carry a pancake air compressor and a 650 ft lb impact wrench with me along with a set of 1/2 inch and 3/4 inch drive deep impact sockets to deal with the simulator and lug nuts. Impact wrench to take them off and torque wrench to put them on. The similator nuts should only be hand snug and should easily go on and come off with the light duty wire handled tool that came with the coach.

You can also check the build sheet that is in the Winnebago Black Bag that should have been handed on to you when you bought the coach. It contains all the information about everything the factory installed in the coach along with most of their instruction manuals.

You can also call Winnebago's toll free support line and they will be able to look up your coaches serial or VIN number and advise you about what was originally installed on the coach and how to service it.

Again you are not looking at the lug nuts yet just the simulator/wheel cover retainers and most times the sheet metal covers are not supposed to be separated from those decorative retaining nuts.

The lug nuts have 13/16" threads and should take a 1 5/16 inch socket.
See: https://www.ultrarvproducts.com/W000...series-Lug-Nut

Dicor Simulator retaining nut for W22. Note they are $25 each and if you force the sheet metal caps off they won't securely press back together, start to rattle and eventually have to be replaced costing you about $100 per wheel:
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Old 10-13-2021, 09:55 PM   #17
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Based on the photos shown, and that you state that you have 19" tires I am not sure you actually have a W22 chassis. I thought all the W22 chassis had 22.5" wheels. Certainly what you picture does not look like 22.5" wheels at all - especially with the small lug nuts and limited thread engagement.

Are you sure that a prior owner did not install some kind of spacer between the wheel and hub that would effectively move your wheel out and limit lug threads? What you show does not look correct, and certainly not safe, as your lug nuts are not engaging much thread at all.

I have a 2005 Adventurer with 22.5" wheels. My lug nuts are large (much larger than what you picture) and fully threaded onto their studs. They also sit behind the wheel cover, directly on the wheel itself. The 2 chromed lug nut fasten on top of 2 of the lug studs - serving only to bolt the cover to the already tightened wheel lug nuts. I know that the correct recommended torque for my lug nuts is 475 ft lbs. But the 2 chromed nuts which retain the wheel cover - even though the same nut & thread - should only be snugged down by hand.

But if you have 19" wheels your lug nut torque would certainly be far less.

Not sure what is going on with your rig but it is good that you noticed the lug nut problem. It really appears that something is preventing your wheels from fully engaging the full length of the wheel studs.
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Old 10-14-2021, 06:30 AM   #18
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HappiHenri, I know you're trying to help but this all been researched and covered in prior posts. You're speculations and comments have already been addressed and they aren't the problems you make them out to be:

1. In post #1, the OP states his GVWR is 20,700# = a W20 chassis.

2. My W20 and the OP's W20 chassis have 19.5" wheels. In fact, according to the Workhorse Chassis Guide, W20s could have either 19.5" or 22.5" wheels and the same is true of W22s, despite the prevalence of W20s with 22.5" wheels.

3. The nuts that are showing aren't lug nuts and they're not a dangerous owner mod. They're the wheel cover nuts and the apparent lack of engagement is normal. Mine are this way as are numerous others in photos on Winnieowners and other sites. In any case, it's not an issue. The actual 33mm lug nuts are underneath the wheel covers. Normally these wheel cover nuts are integral with their chrome covers. Both the OP's and mine have separated from them. I suspect if your's were also bare, you might see the same lack of thread engagement.

4. In post #10, I quote from the Workhorse Chassis guide: Page 149 of the Workhorse Chassis Guide states "the W series, 20,700 lb, 22,000 lb and 24,000 lb GVWR chassis have an 8 hole wheel with 22mm wheel studs, 33mm lug nut and requires 475 lb ft torque." W20 = 20,700#, W22 = 22,000#, W24 = 24,000#.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:29 PM   #19
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BobC, MadMax & NeilV; You guys are 'correct' !!! Go buy yourselves a nice cold beer of your choice in your favorite tavern !! And if anyone doesn't think those tire busters are under-educated, check out the photo of the older (real quality) Craftsman 1/2-inch extension I broke trying to remove those 4 wheel cover retaining nuts on my rig.
Now I get to learn about the oil level in my front hubs. Life is good, again........
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:43 PM   #20
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Good work and doesn't Craftsman still have a lifetime guarantee?

Can you tell if the lug nuts stamped with the torque settings?

I leave things like wheel hubs up to a great truck repair shop I found here in Sacramento. Long gone are the days that I did things like pull the engine from my VW squareback to rebuild it, but we're anxiously awaiting you posting a tutorial on how to deal with your hubs.
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