lift pump - fuel problems?

[hank857]

My brother in law has a 2000-01 adventurer and appears to be having fuel problems. 5.9 cummins will run like crap and even stop occasionally, and this is not something good for an 80YO to mess with by the road. Says he bought the rig which had sat for a few years and noticed that it appeared to have dirty fuel. Changed filters a couple of times now, but still has issue. My sister says appears to be when on rougher road which kinda indicates an electrical issue. Spoke with him last night and he said it does have an electric lift pump not the mechanical one that was an issue with the dodges of that time period.


So question is does anyone know for sure and where is it located? Anyone else have a similar issue? Also he was told there are 3 flter in the system, but hasnt found the 3g one!


Again anyone know if there is and possibly where the 3d one is?


TIA Hank

[imnprsd]

Go to www.irv2.com and do a search for Fass Fuel pump.

and/or search my user name "imnprsd" to find the threads which will give you lot if information on lift pumps and upgrading to a Fass 12V pump or AirDog.

I have an ISC-350 so my lift pump is different than yours. Additionally, I don't know if you have a V44 Injection Pump or a CAPS Injection Pump, but the principles are the same. However, the solution may vary. IDK. I can only tell you I am glad I bypassed my stock lift pump and now I use FASS-Titanium Pump with 2 filters.

Note: Chance are your problem is not bad diesel. And if you can start the engine it's not the lift pump.

Do you see white or black smoke? Can you drive it?

It's it's too rough to drive, your ECM codes need to be checked. It could be a Stator or just a suppressor diode problem, but I'm just guessing. My point is that your fuel timing may be out of wack.

[hank857]

yes it starts and run but as I said it will stumble and die periodically. When its running it will run very well but then the issue may arise at any time, and since its intermittent and he has an electric lift pump thats why I think it may be a pump problem maybe with a short in wiring?? Its not my vehicle, just trying to help my Brother In Law by asking here if anyone else has/had a similar problem.

[imnprsd]

I'm not an ISB owner, but if you can get your brother to post pictures of his ELECTRIC lift pump, that may help others help to point you in the right direction.

Note: The OEM lift pump is electric, but it only is active for 30 seconds. Then the Injection Gear Pump takes over. So you need to know "electric" may just mean he is talking about the OEM lift pump who's only purpose is the start the engine... at least that is how it goes with an ISC motor which may have a bigger injection pump.

You also need to find out what type of injection system he has?

And it runs fine and then goes haywire, maybe it's the suppressor diode that is the problem. IDK. And I woundn't want you to replace any parts until you get some diagnosic code from the ECM.

This these regards, you might invest in a heavy duty truck diagnostic reader. I think you can pick them up on amazon for $125-$150. (Note: I think you have a round 9-pin connector port in the engine bay and under the dash.)

[hank857]

imnprsd, thanks I sent your reply to my BIL and will call later. I know the old pickup had a mechanical lift pump and they were a troublesome part. I am not a cummins guy BIL is as he has driven them (big truck) for years.'


Will see what he does.


Thanks again

[DryCreek]

[QUOTE=imnprsd;3893866]Note: The OEM lift pump is electric, but it only is active for 30 seconds. Then the Injection Gear Pump takes over. So you need to know "electric" may just mean he is talking about the OEM lift pump who's only purpose is the start the engine... at least that is how it goes with an ISC motor which may have a bigger injection pump.

That's not how the VP-44 works. The lift pump should run at all times or the injector pump will suffer from fuel starvation. It is noticeable under half- throttle to full-throttle conditions. If IP pump pressure drops below 15 psi at WOT, the VP-44 will eventually fail. On our trucks equipped with the 24 valve ISB we always used a FASS direct replacement pump that bolted right on to where the Carter did. Much more reliable.

ETA - back to what the OP is describing, it really sound like the APPS. The Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor reset procedure should be tried. If that doesn't work, then it may need to be replaced. Are there any codes showing when tested? There are very specific codes that indicate APPS problems.

Good info here:

[GTobey]

After owning 2 rams with the VP44, and having replaced lots of pumps on the 5.9L engines, sounds like dead pedal syndrome to the max.... When replacing the injection pump, be sure to replace the lift pump, especially such as a Fass system, and idle the engine down for a few minutes before shutdown to cool the electronics on the pump. Hot soak eats up the sensitive electronics on top of the pump. Melts solder on circuit board. Classic P1693 & P0236 code for Dodge Ram symptoms.

[imnprsd]

You forgot to complete the paragraph where I said: ... at least that is how it goes with an ISC motor which may have a bigger injection pump.

To be clear, the ISC lift pump only runs for 30 seconds and then it turns off and never comes back on until you shut the engine down with the key and turn to ACC again.

The ISC ECM controls the 30s second time period.

Consequently, the ISB may have a CAPS-1 pump or a V44. IDK. That's why I requested pictures.

What I hear are that Dodge Ram Trucks are 5.9L and ISB is 8.3L. Is this true?

[gabbyh]

having had the same problem on our '06 Journey 36 with 5.9, this is what I found, unit sat for years only had 11500 mi. on it ran fine a test drive and first trip , then started to skip and shut down, got code from mmdc said fuel problem after much testing found bad pickup tubes in tank ,looked like Swiss cheese on both the main and genset p-u tubes , had to remove tank ,cut out tubes and tig weld new ones in place ,reinstall tank ,and replaced with the fass pump with new fuel lines just in case. then took it to Gaffney S.C. shop for them to ck over . passed . have not had a problem since . my advise , fill tank and if you have no issues then it is the pickup tubes, by the way they still use that tank in new models . good luck.

[imnprsd]

gabbyh: Excellent comments! ...I never hear of bad pickup tubes in tank or how to fix them, but then again I'm not an ISB owner or Journey owner. However, I'm sure others will appreciate this share.

QUESTIONS

Do all Journey's come with a 5.9L ISB?

Do they have a V44 or CAPS injection pump?

Does the lift pump stay on all the time or turn off after 30 seconds like my ISC-350 does, which has a CAPS-1.

WHAT I KNOW ABOUT MY ISC AND OTHER ISC/ISL LIFT PUMPS

With regards to ISC motors these are common design differences:

2003 -early 2004 coaches have an ISC-350 or ISL-400 and came with a CAPS-1 type injection system. They also have a lift pump that only stays on for 30 seconds and it's sole purpose is to start the engine. Then the ECM turns the pump off and the gear driven fuel pump, which is part of the CAPS-1 System, takes over and sucks fuel under vacuum from the fuel tank.

This is weak system at best and it is highly recommend you bypass your OEM lift pump and install a 12V FASS or AirDog Fuel Pump to provide positive fuel pressure to the CAPS-1 system.

* The late model 2004 to 2006 ISC motors and ISL motors came with a CAPS-2 and they used a HPCR -- with different injectors -- which are known to cause problems and are hard to diagnose.

These CAPS-2 systems use a different lift pump system... and their fuel lines have been known to erode from the inside-out due to ULSD fuel... creating "flappers" in the fuel line, which create "foam" in the fuel and stave the injection pump of cooling, lubricity, and fuel pressure. So it's is not uncommon for an engine to drive 100 miles and all of a sudden shut down.

==> Solution: Replace your fuel lines and install a FASS or AirDog 12V electric pump. (However, you may be able to just leave you old fuel lines and install a FASS or AirDog. TBD)

After 2006 they introduced the HPFR system that is still being used today. And the fuel lines are designed for ULSD fuels so there have been no reports of fuel line problems in these 2006+ RVs.

* Sometime after 2009 they started using DEF.

[imnprsd]

The following pictures show the different types of lift pumps used from 2000-2009 (maybe later).