Inverter receptacle wiring problem

[Upinsmoke]

Hi all, my inverter, (Xantrex 1000) is mounted to a compartment wall and, due to it's size, it just barely fits. In one end of the inverter there is a GFCI receptacle which, on occasion, and for no know reason, trips requiring it to be reset. Once reset, it may not trip again for months so I don't suspect any specific electrical problem.

The problem is that due to the very tight clearance with the compartment wall nearest the receptacle, the compartment has to be emptied and the inverter has to be removed from the wall to be able to access the receptacle in order to reset it. A huge PITA to be sure.

My question is how difficult might it be to remove the GFCI receptacle and replace it with a standard one, OR just wire nut all of the wires (black/black & white/white) and do away with it altogether. Xantrex confirmed that it's only there for customer convenience. Obviously, I still need the electric to get out of the inverter and to the remaining outlets in the RV.

Thanks for any thoughts on the subject.

[BobC]

Your plan should work. The GFCI on the inverter is most likely there for those who are plugging things directly into the inverter.

The best plan would be to replace the GFCI with an outlet and avoid wire nuts.

You'll want to make sure that the outlets powered by the inverter are GFCI protected. I would assume that most that need it are already protected since it wouldn't be practical to reset the inverter mounted GFCI every time there's an issue but you should double-check. If there's more than one outlet on a "run" only the first in the run needs protection. If your inverter supplies all the outlets in your MH, then you can be assured they're properly protected.

Page 6-3 of your owner's manual shows a photo of the GFCI outlet on the 1,000W inverter, which looks standard and easy to remove. There's no comparable photo of the 2,000W inverter but I'd assume it's similar. Your biggest challenge will be removing the inverter to gain access.

Your wiring diagrams can be found here:

https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ram/Wiring.htm

Your owner's manual can be found here:

https://www.winnebago.com/owners/own...r-manuals/2015

[Upinsmoke]

BobC, thanks as always for the response. I appreciate the link to the electrical drawings and I'm able to read them fairly well. However, I can't seem to find (figure out) where the 110 wiring comes from the inverter into the RV to determine which outlet is first in line.

I believe there are a total of 4 outlets powered by the inverter and it just seems to make sense to try and catch the first in line. If not, I guess anywhere in line will work? Any electricians out there? As for other outlets with GFCI, I will check but it seems like there would also be at least one for the receptacles not powered by the inverter.

I'll go ahead and yank the inverter, get the GFCI out and see where I go from there and
report back.

Thanks

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

BobC, thanks as always for the response. I appreciate the link to the electrical drawings and I'm able to read them fairly well. However, I can't seem to find (figure out) where the 110 wiring comes from the inverter into the RV to determine which outlet is first in line.

I believe there are a total of 4 outlets powered by the inverter and it just seems to make sense to try and catch the first in line. If not, I guess anywhere in line will work? Any electricians out there? As for other outlets with GFCI, I will check but it seems like there would also be at least one for the receptacles not powered by the inverter.

I'll go ahead and yank the inverter, get the GFCI out and see where I go from there and
report back.

Thanks

Before you yank it, disconnect from shore power turn the inverter on and ID all outlets powered by the converter. I think you'll find at least one or more are GCFI protected, in which case all should be OK. Not all outlets are GCFI protected. This is from the owner's manual:

Bath, galley, and exterior outlets are
connected to a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit
Interrupter), which is an extremely sensitive
circuit breaker that will help to protect against
severe electrical shock if a ground fault develops.
If such a condition occurs, the GFCI will break
the circuit by turning off the power to the
protected outlets. Should this occur, unplug all
the appliances on that circuit and press the reset
button on the GFCI equipped outlet.
If the GFCI keeps tripping, have the electrical
system checked and repaired, if necessary, before
using again.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

Hi all, my inverter, (Xantrex 1000) is mounted to a compartment wall and, due to it's size, it just barely fits. In one end of the inverter there is a GFCI receptacle which, on occasion, and for no know reason, trips requiring it to be reset. Once reset, it may not trip again for months so I don't suspect any specific electrical problem.

The problem is that due to the very tight clearance with the compartment wall nearest the receptacle, the compartment has to be emptied and the inverter has to be removed from the wall to be able to access the receptacle in order to reset it. A huge PITA to be sure.

My question is how difficult might it be to remove the GFCI receptacle and replace it with a standard one, OR just wire nut all of the wires (black/black & white/white) and do away with it altogether. Xantrex confirmed that it's only there for customer convenience. Obviously, I still need the electric to get out of the inverter and to the remaining outlets in the RV.

Thanks for any thoughts on the subject.

On a side note, a lot of Winnebago owners have an issue with their inverter tripping when it’s on, and they start their generator.

[powercat_ras]

One alternative to taking apart the Xantrex and replacing the outlet would be to modify the output side of the Xantrex inverter as follows:

DO WITH ALL SHORE POWER UNPLUGGED. GENERATOR MUST BE OFF. INVERTER MUST BE OFF.

THIS IS SPECIFIC TO THE OP'S 2015 MODEL.

1. Expose about 3" of the black, white, ground wires inside the romex between the Xantrex's output side romex and the 3M connector that is beneath a metal protective cover mounted to the bottom of the floor behind it.

2. cut the ground wire in the output side romex, on the side of the 3" closer to the Xantrex.

3. Connect the ground wire you cut to the white wire.

4. Tape the connection well with electrical tape,

5. Tape the exposed 3" well with electrical tape.

You have created a "bootleg" Neutral-Ground Bond on the load side of your Xantrex and the Xantrex GFCI will never trip again.

Either way, you are eliminating the GFCI trip problem and the GFCI protection. The GFCI protection is not really required or needed given the outlets that Winnebago feeds with the 1000 watt Xantrex.

Note this would not be safe or acceptable IF the Xantrex fed outlets in the bathroom or near the kitchen sink.

[cbeierl]

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

BobC, thanks as always for the response. I appreciate the link to the electrical drawings and I'm able to read them fairly well. However, I can't seem to find (figure out) where the 110 wiring comes from the inverter into the RV to determine which outlet is first in line.

I believe there are a total of 4 outlets powered by the inverter and it just seems to make sense to try and catch the first in line. If not, I guess anywhere in line will work? Any electricians out there? As for other outlets with GFCI, I will check but it seems like there would also be at least one for the receptacles not powered by the inverter.

I'll go ahead and yank the inverter, get the GFCI out and see where I go from there and
report back.

Thanks

Depending on the serial number of your coach there are two sets of wiring diagrams for the 2015 Sunstar 35F:

35F (Serial Number begins with 70E75T1)
35F (Serial Number begins with 70E75T2)

There seem to be some small wiring differences between the T1 and T2 models, but in both cases the last page of the Body, 110 Volt Wiring Installation/Diagram (T2 shown) shows the 110V diagram which shows which outlets are connected to the inverter and how the wiring runs between them. In both cases the RCP-EXT TV seems to be first in line after the inverter.

In either case there also seems to be 1 GFCI outlet in the galley, with the outlets downstream from that also protected. (The inverter may or may not have a GFCI on its output, but it's not shown either way on the drawings.)

[powercat_ras]

At least in my 2015 27N, the galley GFCI is on the other 15 amp branch circuit breaker, not on the 15 amp branch circuit breaker that has the Xantrex 1000 W inverter with it's internal transfer switch wired on part of the circuit.

Branch circuit / breaker #3:

Not on inverter:Right rear bedroom outlet, outlet in slideout wall above dinette seat

Wired thru 1000 W inverter: Wall outlet below TV, Main TV outlet, long slideout: outlet below bedroom TV and outlet for outside entertainment center TV, front cabinet outlets for entertain equipment (both sides), and the wall outlet by the passenger seat.

The other branch circuit NOT involved with the inverter fed outlets is breaker #2, and it has a GFCI outlet below the sink. The galley wall outlet above the countertop in the slideout, the bathroom outlet by the sink, and the outside basement outlet both are all fed thru this GFCI.

[Upinsmoke]

OP here. Thanks for the comments, suggestions and link to the electrical drawings.

Yes, it does appear that the first receptacle in line after the inverter is for the external TV, and the converter, which share the same receptacle. While it could be feasible to switch this outlet to a GFCI, practically, it could not be in a less convenient place regarding access.

So, while it is suggested that the GFCI be first in line, will it still work if it's last in line? I ask this because the most convenient to replace is the one in the wall beside the passenger seat, which does appear to be the last in line.

However, I do have to agree with one of the posters which suggested that the inverter circuit outlets (given their locations) probably don't need GFCI protection at all, I'd just feel better if one were in line somewhere. Thoughts?

Oh, and in prep for the removal, I've already disconnected the hot wire to the inverter at the fuse in the battery box. Thanks to whomever mentioned that tidbit.

[cbeierl]

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

...
Yes, it does appear that the first receptacle in line after the inverter is for the external TV, and the converter, which share the same receptacle. While it could be feasible to switch this outlet to a GFCI, practically, it could not be in a less convenient place regarding access.

So, while it is suggested that the GFCI be first in line, will it still work if it's last in line? I ask this because the most convenient to replace is the one in the wall beside the passenger seat, which does appear to be the last in line.

However, I do have to agree with one of the posters which suggested that the inverter circuit outlets (given their locations) probably don't need GFCI protection at all, I'd just feel better if one were in line somewhere. Thoughts? ...

A GFCI outlet will only protect other outlets 'downstream' (i.e. farther away from the power source than itself). So if you put one at the end of the line the only outlet protected will be that one itself.

I don't believe that there's any need to add a GFCI in that circuit, however. The outlets by the sink and outside are already protected. (The converter, btw, should NOT be plugged into an inverter-controlled outlet! If you did that would mean using 12V DC from the batteries to make 120V AC in the inverter to run the converter to make 12V DC to charge the batteries, which is a losing proposition! It should have it's own outlet as shown on the diagrams.)

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by cbeierl

A GFCI outlet will only protect other outlets 'downstream' (i.e. farther away from the power source than itself). So if you put one at the end of the line the only outlet protected will be that one itself.

I don't believe that there's any need to add a GFCI in that circuit, however. The outlets by the sink and outside are already protected. (The converter, btw, should NOT be plugged into an inverter-controlled outlet! If you did that would mean using 12V DC from the batteries to make 120V AC in the inverter to run the converter to make 12V DC to charge the batteries, which is a losing proposition! It should have it's own outlet as shown on the diagrams.)

Agreed, the GFCI needs to upstream of any downstream outlets it is protecting.

[Upinsmoke]

Op here. Thanks, I'll later post how it all shakes out. It's next on my list of to do's so sometime this week or next.

[Marine359]

I would opt to replace the gfci outlet with another gfci. I find that Xantrex outlet convenient for running power tools when I’m working on my rig. I wouldn’t want to lose the ground fault protection in that circuit. But you really don’t need it for the rest of the rig if your other circuits are protected.

[Upinsmoke]

OP here, I've started the project and have removed inverter from the wall. However, the (phone like) cable which goes from the inverter to the remote control panel is very tight - not banjo string tight, but tight. This severely limits my ability to get to the screws and connections necessary to complete putting in the new receptacle.

I've looked at the 12v wiring diagram to see if I could find the exact routing of the cable and I don't think it's there. Might anyone have any suggestions on how to find out where/how it's routed with the hopes of loosening it up? If I can free this up the job would be ten times easier.

My first, next step, will be to remove the control panel from the inside. I doubt I will see much but who knows? Any other thoughts on the subject?

Thanks!

[imnprsd]

Most of the remote display CAT-5/6 cables are long, and in my RV they coiled up the excess and stashed it in the wall below the power panel. So if you can gain access to the that wall, near the floor, you probably will find yards of the stuff.

In my RV the wall has a 7" end cap, which I pulled off to access all the wires. Then I just re-silicone'd it back when I was done. The picture below barely shows the end cap on the wall. I had it apart just last week to fix my holding tank LED board.

Alternatively, it may be possible to find an clip-on extender you can put near your inverter to add a 6' CAT cable, just like we used to use on our home telephones when that cord was too short.

Maybe they make a CAT5 extender for this application. (Search on Amazon or find a Radio Shack like place.) However, you need to be sure your inverter uses a CAT wire or Xantrex might have a connector-converter available. I seem to remember reading something about that.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

OP here, I've started the project and have removed inverter from the wall. However, the (phone like) cable which goes from the inverter to the remote control panel is very tight - not banjo string tight, but tight. This severely limits my ability to get to the screws and connections necessary to complete putting in the new receptacle.

I'm not sure of your exact model but, according to this Xantrex manual, the cord simply plugs into the unit (see pg 3). I wouldn't expect anything different with other models, so you should be able to disconnect it:

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Pow...-01_Rev-B).pdf

To make things easier in the future you can install an extension as suggested by imnprsd:

https://www.amazon.com/TNP-Ethernet-.../dp/B01LXHQXA8

[Upinsmoke]

OP here, thanks for the replies, suggestions, and links. The current inverter model is a Xantrex i 1000 and is a replacement from the original. On the original model the Cat5 cable connection on the inverter was easy to get to and disconnect. On this one, for some strange reason, it's buried deeper in the access hole and I can't (yet) figure out how to get to it to disconnect it. This complicates things a little further in that if I get an extension (good suggestion) I'm not sure the end, as pictured, will fit in the connection within the unit. Hmmm.

imnprsd, I'll post a picture of my wall and you can let me know if it's similar or point out the panel/area where you removed your panel. Thanks

If I can get a wifi signal at the RV, I'll try using my borescope and look around from both ends of the cable to see if I can get a better view of what's holding it tight. I have pics of the current situation which I'll post as soon as I get them off of my phone.
It might be a day or so before I can get back on it but I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks

1st pic (sorry about sideways) shows the control panel cabinet, over the TV, and I don't see any major access here.

2nd pic shows cabinetry area beside the fridge and no evident access here. Thoughts?

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

OP here, thanks for the replies, suggestions, and links. The current inverter model is a Xantrex i 1000 and is a replacement from the original. On the original model the Cat5 cable connection on the inverter was easy to get to and disconnect. On this one, for some strange reason, it's buried deeper in the access hole and I can't (yet) figure out how to get to it to disconnect it. This complicates things a little further in that if I get an extension (good suggestion) I'm not sure the end, as pictured, will fit in the connection within the unit. Hmmm.

imnprsd, I'll post a picture of my wall and you can let me know if it's similar or point out the panel/area where you removed your panel. Thanks

If I can get a wifi signal at the RV, I'll try using my borescope and look around from both ends of the cable to see if I can get a better view of what's holding it tight. I have pics of the current situation which I'll post as soon as I get them off of my phone.
It might be a day or so before I can get back on it but I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks

1st pic (sorry about sideways) shows the control panel cabinet, over the TV, and I don't see any major access here.

2nd pic shows cabinetry area beside the fridge and no evident access here. Thoughts?

My borescope creates its own WiFi signal to connect to my phone. No external WiFi is needed. Check yours to see if that too is the case.

Also, the extension cat5 cable their talking about could go in the middle of the run, not at the inverter.

[BobC]

My borescope connects via Bluetooth but I suppose some could be wifi.

Also, I know with one of my wires, not a cat5/6 cable, a firm but gentle tug loosed things up.

[powercat_ras]

The problem is that the modular cable is part of a wiring bundle with 12 volt wires and is taped at intervals with little strips of tape, that's why it won't pull.

Your best bet is to just run a new modular cable with the same ends as the original if need be.