HWH jack question - Page 2

CMcCardell · 04-10-2009, 04:02 PM

Well, the good news is that the new/rebuilt solenoids were received today.

The bad news is that 3 of the 4 old solenoids, when removed, left their seats inside the manifold - only the solenoid/needle came out. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the seats out. Any ideas/experience?

- Clay

CMcCardell · 04-12-2009, 01:20 PM

Good grief what a &#*@ pain in the @$$ -

A screw extractor finally worked to get the seats out - 3 of 4 solenoids replaced, the remaining one that worked is still in place and the spare is in stock. Added about 2/3 qt of Dextron III to the reservoir, WD-40'd the jacks, and everything's working great now.

- Clay

Pubtym · 04-16-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pubtym

I've had from slow jack retraction to partial jack retraction problems for past year. Solenoids working..verified with switch clicking sounds and alternate retraction methods.

I replaced OE springs with "new" HWH springs. Retraction time shortened but still intermitttent partial retraction. I reset the auto level sensor to correct level...jacks no longer extended to extremes..

Last year at GNR, I learned from HWH Tech rep that HWH makes their own springs...
After going to the website for "Century Springs", I learned what material characteristics and manufacturing processes yield the highest quality springs. My opinion: HWH springs are a D+ with Century Springs A+. Century Springs are generally sold in good hardware stores on a large assorted display board of springs. I have had good success with Century Spring C-307. I have one C-307 booster piggy back to each HWH Spring on a rear W22 HWH jack. Retraction time is cut in half and no other problems to date with that jack...I continue to work the piggyback booster spring rigs concept...I have ordered Century Spring #5582 ($11 each) from the Century Spring Manufacturer and this model should work slightly better than C-307. I'll be testing this new spring rig on the rear jacks this week. More to follow...

The 5582 springs worked great.. as dual booster rigged...better than C-307s. By using connecting hardware (quick links , "S" hooks or anchor shackles)....you can vary tension of springs from jack to jack so as to achieve a fairly close faster closure synchro..and significantly reduce possibility of solenoid burnout. During my tests, I found all four jack solenoids reached 135 degrees F by final jack retraction. The manifold where the solenoids are connected remained at 66 degrees F. Retraction time shortened noticeably when retraction was initiated with engine running...thereby providing the engine alternator 14.4 volts to all solenoids versus the static engine battery @ 12.2 V or lower..

I also noted shortened jack retraction time if retraction was initiated with the small bedroom slide left fully extended...until full jack retraction was completed. Do not try any jack retraction with a large main side slide extended.

Website is:http://www.centuryspring.com/about.html

No need to sign in. Go to "product overview" and then to "extension springs"...you'll find the 5582 spring listed there.

Pubtym · 04-17-2009, 07:52 AM

I have the HWH 625 Series (Automatic Level-Automatic Store) system on my Itasca 2006 Model 35U. For a real brainteaser, on how to understand the engineer's explanation of the correct jack solenoid valve operation and exact malfunction analysis for each jack solenoid ....go to this website and download-print out the first three pages of the 635 Series Manual. Have fun...

http://www.hwhcorp.com/service34.html

Tom N · 04-17-2009, 09:02 AM

A timely subject thread for me.

We left FL on Monday. Been parked since early November. Retracted slides and jacks. Two jacks failed to retract completely. Could not push them up. They were almost retracted so drove off thinking they would complete their retraction and the warning lights and buzzer would go off in a few minutes. Drove for 3 hours with buzzer going off. Stopped for lunch and turned off ignition. When I restarted buzzer did not sound and jack control panel was dead. At least no buzzer.

Drove to Cracker Barrel in Orangeburg, SC for the night. Slides would not go out and jacks would not extend. Jack touch pad was dead.

The next morning I checked HWH's website and found a master HWH service center south of Columbia, SC, about 35 miles away in Lexington, SC. Called them and they got me in. At first they said the control touch panel was bad but upon further diagnostics they said all 4 jack solenoids were bad. They had one in stock and had the other 3 overnighted. Yesterday morning the parts arrived and they had me on the road shortly after noon.

Drove up to the iRV2 rally at Mayberry CG in Mt Airy, SC. Extended slides and dropped jacks. Everything worked perfectly. This coach has never been this stable and my roof satellite dish locked on to the sat quicker than it ever has. I ordered the motorhome from the factory. I think I've had one or more bad solenoids since it was delivered from Winnebago. This thing has never been this solid and my satellite dish always has had difficulty locking on to the sat.

I have all four bad solenoids. We'll be back home in PA late Sunday and I'll take some photos of them and post.

Solenoids were $126.56 each and my understanding is that they are new ones. Part # RAP90729.

Total repair was $506.24 parts, 4 hours labor @$95 an hour for a total of $886.24 + tax. I'm satisfied as this motorhome has never been this solid on jacks.

BYW, Tony's RV Parts & Service http://www.tonysrv.com/ did the repair and I highly recommend them. They have a huge stock of RV parts, over 30 employees, a 10 bay service shop and a 3 bay body shop. I was very impressed by their facility and professionalism. We stayed their two nights and they parked me and hooked up 30amp electric and water.

-Tom

Pubtym · 04-17-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pubtym

Interesting understandable differences in remanufactured prices here...my local Winnie Parts guy and direct from HWH/Frank.

I need an old one to hand carry around to local hydraulic shops for a solenoid geek to correctly identify type valve and specs and possibly an alternate company source for a better quality Item.

There are many companies making this industrial type of valve.

I'd appreciate someone loaning me their old one to complete this cross over research. I'll pay shipping charges both way.

I'll have to hold discussion here until after Monday. I'm going fishing with motor home ...and HWH jacks with Century rear spring boosters are working great!

Now...if I can just catch some fish>>>

No fish and no loaner offers...so I ordered a remanufactured one from HWH today @ 108 dollars. It should arrive next week.

Today, I located and had a visit from a local field rep from a major U.S. industrial solenoid supplier. He saw the installed jack solenoids...and I believe is impression was that they appeared to be pre-civil war technology and manufacture. He could not believe how crude they appeared...

In his opinion, replacing the "coil" portion of the HWH solenoid with a more reliable design and manufacture will be fairly simple and less expensive than current remanufactured HWH jack solenoid. To be seen..is the "rest of the story"...that being the HWH solenoid valve seat and needle portion of the part.

When my 'remanufactured" solenoid arrives...he will assess what HWH has fitted inside the coil assembly and his company's capability to provide a complete cross over jack solenoid that's reliable. Added comment from the rep was that, in his opinion, where the solenoid is exposed to wheel water spray...the solenoid assembly should be sealed-water proof..

We agreed that it would be helpful if we knew what secifically was failing in the coils (ie: windings shorting etc...) and what.. if any.. the 'remanufactured" solenoid has corrected...

More to follow in a week...

FleetMan · 04-17-2009, 09:18 PM

From Pubtym above - "Added comment from the rep was that, in his opinion, where the solenoid is exposed to wheel water spray...the solenoid assembly should be sealed-water proof."

I had problems directly related to road spray from my right front tire - hydraulic package mounted under the entry steps and exposed to the elements, especially those components closest to the frame rail. After finding my problem - corroded internals and a broken wire on the inner most - left rear - solenoid (yes, they all should be waterproofed if they are exposed as they are) I installed an extra anti spray shield to keep the road slop from getting on any of the hydraulic package components. I feel Winnebago should have done that as part of their assembly process and did relay my "fix" to my dealer and the factory. So far, so good. The area does not get inundated by road slop anymore.

Pubtym · 04-18-2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FleetMan

From Pubtym above - "Added comment from the rep was that, in his opinion, where the solenoid is exposed to wheel water spray...the solenoid assembly should be sealed-water proof."

I had problems directly related to road spray from my right front tire - hydraulic package mounted under the entry steps and exposed to the elements, especially those components closest to the frame rail. After finding my problem - corroded internals and a broken wire on the inner most - left rear - solenoid (yes, they all should be waterproofed if they are exposed as they are) I installed an extra anti spray shield to keep the road slop from getting on any of the hydraulic package components. I feel Winnebago should have done that as part of their assembly process and did relay my "fix" to my dealer and the factory. So far, so good. The area does not get inundated by road slop anymore.

Great added comments...Corroded internals...coil shorts could be one issue here. Mine have some road slop and corrosion. I need to inspect connections where my primary solenoid wires connect to the primary jack-slide control box. Corroded connections here could be another contributer to lower than required actuation volts going to solenoids.. Connection cleaning and WD-40 might assist here...then over seal - tape-liquid tape- each primary wire connection...

I'm now thinking of fabricating a removable plastic bonnet for my current Hyd pump and jack solenoids/ assembly...got pictures of your shield-bonnet?

I have some thoughts about nearby unit tire vibration...if tire is not routinely balanced...and quality shocks are not installed..

With 5000 hours helicopter time...many of those hours doing helicopter maintenance test...I saw what excessive low-medium frequency vibration can do to nearby electronic components...in this case...the internal coils and solenoid assembly. I have Centramatic balancers on all wheels--Front & Rear..and Koni Shocks

All systematic reduction in road or chassis generated vibrations increases all Motorhome electronic component life. Proved this point many times by reducing helicopter airframe component vibrations..

FleetMan · 04-19-2009, 08:10 AM

Correction to Post #27, must be old age. Although I did have all four jack solenoids replaced due to broken bleed screws, ONE TURN, not 4 1/2 to release pressure on the large solenoids, the internal corrosion and broken wire were related to the main electrical relay for the hydraulic pump motor. Not a jack solenoid. Sorry about that.

Pubtym · 04-19-2009, 09:44 AM

Looking at the amount of corrosion present around the bleed screws and the two primary wire entry points to my current jack solenoids, I would assume moisture collection at those three points...and the possible minute moisture corrosion seepage in to the coil unit windings...thereby possible breakdown of coil integrity-continuity.

Until we possibly locate a sealed/moisture proof solenoid unit from another industrial source, here's what I would do if replacing jack solenoids with current crudely sealed "remanufactred' ones:

a. Locate-purchase a product called Liquid Tape (Electrical). It's made by Performix.

b. Prior to installing the new solenoid..clean the oiled areas around the solenoid's primary wire entry points and the manual release screw...and the immediate surrounding area to the screw. Use an electrical connection spray cleaner (Radio Shack).

c. When the these areas are clean and dry, sufficiently coat all areas with dabs of Liquid Tape ...so as to temporarily seal all potential moisture entry points. Let thoroughly dry...then install.

BugSlayer · 04-19-2009, 11:58 AM

Pubtym,

Sorry to be so late to the party as I could have saved you the expense of ordering a re manufactured part. Last October I had problems that resulted in my having the solenoids, pump motor, control panel and all original springs replaced on my '05 Journey. I am something of a pack rat so I still have those parts and now that I have read your comments about having them rebuilt, I will save them. In the meanwhile, should you find that you need additional samples, PM or Email me and I will be glad to ship them to you and pay the shipping there if you will agree to ship them back (you cover return) and post or share the information you turn up.

To say that I have been disappointed with my HWH leveling system would be an understatement and any alternative parts that could improve the system would be welcome knowledge.

Pubtym · 04-19-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BugSlayer

Pubtym,

Sorry to be so late to the party as I could have saved you the expense of ordering a re manufactured part. Last October I had problems that resulted in my having the solenoids, pump motor, control panel and all original springs replaced on my '05 Journey. I am something of a pack rat so I still have those parts and now that I have read your comments about having them rebuilt, I will save them. In the meanwhile, should you find that you need additional samples, PM or Email me and I will be glad to ship them to you and pay the shipping there if you will agree to ship them back (you cover return) and post or share the information you turn up.

To say that I have been disappointed with my HWH leveling system would be an understatement and any alternative parts that could improve the system would be welcome knowledge.

OUCH !!!!!! Like many others...you have severe pocket damage from premature failure of HWH jack system parts.

ASAP..please send me the one of the failed solenoids and the failed pump motor. I'll return all on my tickets...and I'll continue to share-post as my search progresses. Check your PM for my mail address.

In the meantime, I need help from other readers of this thread if you have the misfortune to need a replacement "remanufactured' jack solenoid (HWH Part # RM90729). Please...persistantly ask the HWH tech rep:

a. What on the remanufactured solenoid was "remanufactured"?

b. Has HWH manufacturing Quality Control identified why the component part required "remanufacture"?...why it failed?

c. Do "new" (not remanufactured) jack solenoids have engineered-manufacture product improvements to prevent this component failure?

Please share-post any of the answers to the above you might gain.

Pubtym · 04-20-2009, 07:04 AM

Rewind of solenoid coils has been mentioned in this thread....

Here's a link to a article on how it is done...by someone who has way more electron smarts and skills than me. The point I make here...yes, it could be a local repair option for repair - replacement of a current production failed HWH jack solenoid.

Questions: How much it would cost to locally rewind?...What local companies do rewinds?..Could the current solenoid be made more moisture "resistant" after a local rewind?
I currently do not have the answers...but I'm working them..When I receive a failed jack solenoid from BugSlayer, I might be able to find answers locally..

I see a key statement in this 'how to' article: "Here is the information that you may have been looking for. . . how to rewind the coil for a voltage that fits your needs... or simply how to turn an undesireable coil into a desireable one."

http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/Coilrewind.htm

Pubtym · 04-20-2009, 09:09 AM

The following is a quote from Drierite Website:

"Adverse Effects of Moisture"
Water and water vapor probably cause more damage than any other contaminant, either by direct attack or by indirect means. Dampness can promote the growth of mildew or fungus. Water molecules on the surface of metals can cause rust, tarnish or corrosion. Water vapor in the atmosphere can promote chemical reactions which will corrode or destroy the material that comes in contact with the products of reaction. While the insides of a compartment or container and its contents may feel dry to the touch, a considerable amount of water may be adsorbed on the surface or in the pores of them. Changes in temperature can desorb the water and condense it into droplets causing water spots, localized corrosion or other deterioration. "

This information summarizes the importance of a quality sealed jack solenoid coil ...which, in my opinion, the current HWH jack solenoid is far from providing..

Pubtym · 04-20-2009, 01:45 PM

Part Number 500097/ DUMP VALVE SOLENOID (Power Gear)

or: Part Number 500440/ DUMP VALVE SOLENOID (Power Gear)

or: Part Number 500439 /LEG VALVE AND SOLENOID (Power Gear)

http://www.powergearus.com/DATA/service_manual.pdf

I wonder if .......??????

I know the industrial supplier/vendor of these solenoids to PowerGear...hmmmmm..and it ain't HWH.

Pubtym · 04-22-2009, 07:16 AM

HWH remanufactured ( April 9, 2009) jack solenoid valve arrived yesterday. I opened it to confirm. Good grief Charlie Brown!!. I'm trying to decide whether it is a quality reject item from Harbor Freight...or the 4th grade science project from my Grand Son?? "Hello Houston...I think we have a problem..."

I'll be contacting my field rep from the industrial supply company today with hopes to have him visit me here at motor home. ...for his view on the remanufatured item..I'll confirm all his medical vaccinations are current.

More to follow..

Pubtym · 04-23-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pubtym

HWH remanufactured ( April 9, 2009) jack solenoid valve arrived yesterday. I opened it to confirm. Good grief Charlie Brown!!. I'm trying to decide whether it is a quality reject item from Harbor Freight...or the 4th grade science project from my Grand Son?? "Hello Houston...I think we have a problem..."

I'll be contacting my field rep from the industrial supply company today with hopes to have him visit me here at motor home. ...for his view on the remanufatured item..I'll confirm all his medical vaccinations are current.

More to follow..

Today I received the needed failed solenoid from BugSlayer. Thanks.

I passed the unused remanufactured solenoid valve and "failed" valve to
the industrial manufacturing supply rep.

More to follow...

Pubtym · 04-24-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pubtym

OUCH !!!!!! Like many others...you have severe pocket damage from premature failure of HWH jack system parts.

ASAP..please send me the one of the failed solenoids and the failed pump motor. I'll return all on my tickets...and I'll continue to share-post as my search progresses. Check your PM for my mail address.

In the meantime, I need help from other readers of this thread if you have the misfortune to need a replacement "remanufactured' jack solenoid (HWH Part # RM90729). Please...persistantly ask the HWH tech rep:

a. What on the remanufactured solenoid was "remanufactured"?

b. Has HWH manufacturing Quality Control identified why the component part required "remanufacture"?...why it failed?

c. Do "new" (not remanufactured) jack solenoids have engineered-manufacture product improvements to prevent this component failure?

Please share-post any of the answers to the above you might gain.

I now see a possible reason why we as customers might not get the straight skinny answers on a., b., c. above.

Maybe other readers see this the same way I do..

More to follow..

Pubtym · 04-26-2009, 04:13 PM

Another issue here..in the HWH systems...

a. When I unwrapped the recently ordered "remanufactured" jack solenoid valve...I was appalled by the amount of paint flecks of peeling "fresh" black paint on the solenoid ..when I removed the attached "protective" plastic cap that's supposed to "protect" the valve piston assembly...I found more fleck debris on that supposedly "clean" area. Most mechanical hyd techs would refer to this as serious potential "Micro- FOD (Foreign Object Damage). My bet is the line dealer tech might not clean this stuff off the valve parts prior to reinstall of replacement valve..hmmmmm..

b. With my little knowledge of HWH jack-slide systems...I can not find parts reference to an in line hyd filter....even though the system has a pressure pump and many other moving parts able to produce normal and common wear-tear micro-FOD...hmmmmm. Are the solenoid valve failures associated with micro-FOD?

c. With added internet search...I find there are many companies that produce small cost effective mini in line high pressure hyd filters..One of these mini line filters should be able to be installed in the HWH hyd system...preferably on a line down fluid from the pump.....

More info here...and more to follow:
http://www.normanfilters.com/4200series.html

Pubtym · 04-28-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pubtym

Looking at the amount of corrosion present around the bleed screws and the two primary wire entry points to my current jack solenoids, I would assume moisture collection at those three points...and the possible minute moisture corrosion seepage in to the coil unit windings...thereby possible breakdown of coil integrity-continuity.

Until we possibly locate a sealed/moisture proof solenoid unit from another industrial source, here's what I would do if replacing jack solenoids with current crudely sealed "remanufactred' ones:

a. Locate-purchase a product called Liquid Tape (Electrical). It's made by Performix.

b. Prior to installing the new solenoid..clean the oiled areas around the solenoid's primary wire entry points and the manual release screw...and the immediate surrounding area to the screw. Use an electrical connection spray cleaner (Radio Shack).

c. When the these areas are clean and dry, sufficiently coat all areas with dabs of Liquid Tape ...so as to temporarily seal all potential moisture entry points. Let thoroughly dry...then install.

The following HWH Information Bulletin, Jan 10, 2006 supports my recommendation previously provided here. As I review the many HWH system diagrams, one ground point is very critical to correct operations of most of the critical electrical componets controlling the system. That ground point is labeled-identified as: "The HWH Ground Stud" on the pump motor.

"Due to extreme weather conditions, exposed electrical connections can become corroded and deteriorated to the point of causing system failure in as little as one month of operation. On all vehicles, especially where exposure to road salts and deicing chemicals is common, all electrical connections should be protected from these conditions. Crimped and soldered connections should be protected with shrink tube. Ring terminal connections such as pump relay connections and frame ground connections should be thoroughly coated to provide protection."

http://www.hwhcorp.com/mi9554.pdf