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Old 12-17-2019, 09:46 PM   #1
Winnebago Camper
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
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How do I actually CHECK for windshield frame rust on a prospective Vectra purchase??

I'm going to look at a 40' Vectra tomorrow to possibly purchase. Of course 'll get it professionally checked prior to purchase, but is there any way for me to visually check for the windshield rust issue prior to committing funds for a pro inspection? I've read plenty about what the rust issue is but not anything on how to actually check for it.


Thanks!
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Old 12-18-2019, 08:20 AM   #2
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My experience is limited to the one sitting in my pole barn. Based on this one, I would look for the following:


From the inside:

Look for water staining on the bottom of the window curtains, on the dash itself and on the inside plastic molding.

Open up the cabinets above the windshield. On my MH there are enough holes/openings to see the backside of the top window frame. Take a good flashlight and a cell phone to take pictures thru these openings. Consider buying a borescope camera that attaches to your cell phone. It maybe hard to see the entire top of the frame without the borescope.

From the outside:

Look for signs that the owner has tried to seal the edges of the rubber molding with any type of sealant. Winnebago and the windshield installers do not add any sealant on the rubber molding.

And finally, if it says Winnebago on the MH, is a class A MH and it was stored outside in the elements, the windshield frame is rusted and will eventually leak. Inside storage will extend the life of the frame, but those MHs will also start to rust. It is a design problem.
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Old 12-19-2019, 12:45 AM   #3
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I have the 2004 Itasca "Horizon" and when we had our front windshields replaced we found no corrosion to our frame.

There are many other things to look for first, but I suppose if you know about windshield frame rust then you have already checked everything else.

It's a great coach so don't talk yourself out of a deal or try finding things to negotiate a lower price. There is no better value on the road today than a 2004-2004 Horizon or Vectra...

... The winnie roof is a one piece fiberglass, but you inspect it closely! It does not leak often, but it also does not hold weight (people walking on top) very well.

... And if there are any vinyl roof bubbles or repairs inside the the coach (on the ceiling) then you are in trouble and I would really think twice about buying that coach unless the price is really, really good. The cost to repair each vinyl ceiling panel strip is $4,000 and you have 4 of them from the kitchen forward.

...There are also lots of upgrades you can do that are worthwhile, because you are now getting into a Luxury coach and you have a very good chassis.

For example, I would pull that Norcold at the first sign it needs service... with a residential refrigerator! Or do it sooner.

...Replace those tires if they are old (like more than 8 years). I highly recommend Michelin X-Line Energy "Steer" Tires! And I hate spending money on tires.... but if you see 100's of hours driving... then this is where you want to spend your money!

...And if I were you I would upgrade to a FASS fuel pump ASAP.

...And re-glue your roof seams along each gutter. And if you are worried about windshield leaks, take a look behind the front cap on the driver's side. That area has a lot of glue and will break down the fastest. Of course, this is not an indication so much if you windshields are leaking, but it's worth looking at.

...And if you don't hear any wind whistling noise when driving, that's another good sign, but a lot of coaches have some noise. Most of the time you can add weather strip to your door, but other times it's really hard to know where the wind is whistling from.

For a long list of ideas, fixes, and upgrades... go to this thread and look at pages 284-289 for a list of things applicable to your coach.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f101/winn...279551-21.html

...And let us know if you buy it? If so, good job! I would not let my coach go for less than $80,000 and I know you can get some get deals out there, because you should plan on upgrading... and that's time and money often worth paying for.
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Old 12-19-2019, 08:37 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
I have the 2004 Itasca "Horizon" and when we had our front windshields replaced we found no corrosion to our frame.

There are many other things to look for first, but I suppose if you know about windshield frame rust then you have already checked everything else.

It's a great coach so don't talk yourself out of a deal or try finding things to negotiate a lower price. There is no better value on the road today than a 2004-2004 Horizon or Vectra...

... The winnie roof is a one piece fiberglass, but you inspect it closely! It does not leak often, but it also does not hold weight (people walking on top) very well.

... And if there are any vinyl roof bubbles or repairs inside the the coach (on the ceiling) then you are in trouble and I would really think twice about buying that coach unless the price is really, really good. The cost to repair each vinyl ceiling panel strip is $4,000 and you have 4 of them from the kitchen forward.

...There are also lots of upgrades you can do that are worthwhile, because you are now getting into a Luxury coach and you have a very good chassis.

For example, I would pull that Norcold at the first sign it needs service... with a residential refrigerator! Or do it sooner.

...Replace those tires if they are old (like more than 8 years). I highly recommend Michelin X-Line Energy "Steer" Tires! And I hate spending money on tires.... but if you see 100's of hours driving... then this is where you want to spend your money!

...And if I were you I would upgrade to a FASS fuel pump ASAP.

...And re-glue your roof seams along each gutter. And if you are worried about windshield leaks, take a look behind the front cap on the driver's side. That area has a lot of glue and will break down the fastest. Of course, this is not an indication so much if you windshields are leaking, but it's worth looking at.

...And if you don't hear any wind whistling noise when driving, that's another good sign, but a lot of coaches have some noise. Most of the time you can add weather strip to your door, but other times it's really hard to know where the wind is whistling from.

For a long list of ideas, fixes, and upgrades... go to this thread and look at pages 284-289 for a list of things applicable to your coach.

Winnebago/Itasca Mods , Fixes & Tips - Page 21 - iRV2 Forums

...And let us know if you buy it? If so, good job! I would not let my coach go for less than $80,000 and I know you can get some get deals out there, because you should plan on upgrading... and that's time and money often worth paying for.

Wow, thanks so much for a great reply, and for all of the great reply's from all of you. Thanks so much. I looked at the first of two coaches that I am considering yesterday. This will be my first RV, and I’m aware that I’m jumping into the very deep end by starting out with a Class A diesel, but I'm very mechanical and I have driven large vehicles and I fly transport category jets, so hopefully the learning curve on actually operating it won’t be so steep. Learning about all the other aspects of the coach is fun and I’m learning as fast as I can!

Both coaches I’m looking at are 2005 Vectra 40KD’s. My wife and I really prefer the KD floor plan for the times when family and friends join us, which we hope they do. The two I am looking at both have what I believe to be low mileage considering the year, with one being high 30’s and one low 40’s on the mileage. Both seem to be very well cared for.

As you suggested, we are already thinking about what we’d upgrade. I think the fridge is probably top on our list. I don’t know much about the fridge that’s in there, only that I have heard few positive comments from anyone about it. Both RV’s we’re considering have 4 door fridges installed. I presume that any residential fridge that we like that fits into the cabinet dimensions is ok? What are guys typically using? Of course an ice maker inside is a must.

Using some suggestions posted here, I gave very careful inspection inside and out around the windshield. Opening all overhead cabinets above the windshield, and inspecting carefully with a bright light, I see no evidence at all of any leakage (or anywhere else in the coach, for that matter). Looking outside, I see nothing unusual as far as any silicone attempt to seal any leaks around the windshield. There is one small star type chip on the passenger windshield, I assume I can have a glass guy repair that chip with the injected acrylic cheaply to prevent that from spreading?

The headliner looks great. I looked for signs of sagging and leaks and noted none. I’m going to have a pro look the whole thing over. I want to make sure whoever I hire is very familiar with the fiberglass roof, and spends a lot of time on that. Now, I need to find the right guy. No idea how to go about that, but I’ll figure it out.

New tires are a must, I’m almost sure I’ll go with Michelins. I want no issues with the tires. For me it’s all about safety and reliability on the road. So many things to choose from with regard to roadside assistance choices, extended warranty (to get or not, and if so which one), etc. The prices for roadside assistance all seem pretty low, I’m thinking maybe join more than one? Good Sam, AAA (I’m already a member for my cars), Coach Net, FMCA, …….. HELP!!!! Are any of you guys doing the extended warranty? Are they a good idea, and if so which seems to be best?

I have looked at many types of coaches, and I could very well be wrong, but my deep automotive experience in the past leads me to believe that for the dollar spent, these Vectras/Horizons are perhaps the best bang for the buck out there. They seem to be very, very well built, Winnebago is a rock solid company, they look great, the Freightliner chassis is rock solid and will last seemingly forever. I’m looking at only the 400 Cummins ISL powered coaches, so tons of reliable power shouldn’t be an issue. The quality on these coaches seems to be superior to all others that I have looked at in this price range.

You had suggested upgrading ASAP to a FASS fuel pump. Can you please speak more to that - what is the issue, and what is the cost and difficulty of the upgrade? Do you guys typically go to a Freightliner dealer for engine and chassis service? I imagine most are using a nearby independent for coach repairs that are non chassis related?

I’m thinking about using a Jeep Liberty 4WD as my tow vehicle. I want something with 4WD, small, ruggedly built and inexpensive. The Liberty seems to fit the bill.

I hop on a plane after the holidays to go see coach number 2 that I’m considering. I hope to sign on the dotted line on one of them in mid January. Hopefully that puts us n the coach sometime in Feb, maybe early March.

Guys. PLEASE keep the info coming. I love to learn, and the search and getting involved has been very enjoyable in itself. Can any of you add anything my search that I am missing?

Thanks!
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:55 AM   #5
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Well, as my signature line shows, I'm biased, but I think you are making a good choice. Mine is still going strong, just the usual maintenance one would expect over the years.

If you haven't tried driving them yet, you'll find the Vectras drive very nice. The Freightliner chassis gives a nice ride and the wheel cut make for easy turns. I've put many freeway miles under mine with the cruise control on and one handed relaxed steering.

Be sure to go online at the Winnie site and download every doc you can get... brochure, wiring/plumbing diagrams, parts fische etc. Also hit the Freightliner Custom Chassis site for the owners and maintenance docs. Then, when you select your unit, go through and write down all the makes/models of various components and appliances and download those manuals too. It's nice having all those PDF docs at hand for when you need them.

Just give everything a good look-over, make sure you try every system, appliance, etc to make sure things work.

Personally, I tend to do most of the "house" stuff myself and go to my local Freightliner dealer for chassis/engine/transmission work. What you do will be determined by your skills and tools. Yes, a glass repair company should be able to zap your starred windshield just like any other automotive glass.

Highly recommended... check out "Camp Freightliner" and try to book into a class. It's a multi-day training class geared towards new owners where you will get a ton of info, especially if you are new to the world of diesel chassis and air brakes/suspension.

And a final note since you appear to be a new poster... RV forums, like many others, tend to lean hard towards people who are having issues. Few rarely post to say "I just had a 500 mile trip and nothing broke." So for example when you see posts about people having issues with their fridge, you are seeing only those postings. I have the original 1201 fridge, only one issue the entire time (replaced the control board and added an overheat cutoff) and it's still going strong. This is NOT to denigrate those who have had an issue and replaced their fridges, just saying the nature of the forums causes you to see all the bad and rarely the good. Same with windshield rust, roof edge maintenance, etc. They give you a good idea of what to keep an eye on, but not a guarantee that you will ever have that issue on your particular unit.
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Old 12-19-2019, 11:00 AM   #6
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Beware of going the residential refrigerator route if you plan on spending any significant amount of time boon-docking or dry camping, especially if, like me, you dislike running your generator for hours on end. I've read the negative reports about the Norcold LPG/120V refrigerators but I've had them in two TTs and my current motorhome without any problems. I have added an automatic fire extinguisher, just in case.
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Old 12-19-2019, 01:36 PM   #7
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I also find that reading reviews is almost useless except for finding things that may/may not bug us personally. Review folks either love it or hate it and often without fully explaining why. I do not change too many things until I find what bother ME, not what bothers other folks!
Your attitudes, experiences and likes/dislikes are what count far more than what I might like. Things like the frig mentioned? I would simply NEVER want to change out the frig for the way we use our RV. There are so many different ways to use an RV, that I highly suggest waiting and finding what you actually like before changing as some of those "upgrades" that some do will actually downgrade the RV on selling.
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:10 PM   #8
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And, whatever you do, don't pour thousands into suspension upgrades without being sure you need them. Get some miles under your belt before you decide you need upgrades. The one exception to this is if your shocks are worn, in which case, replace them ASAP. There are continual online debates about the merits of various brands of premium ($$$) shocks but OEM shocks are fine:

1. A new, lightly loaded MH is going to ride rough and rattle. You'll see a big improvement once you're loaded for travel.
2. Dialing in your tire pressures for your actual weight will have an impact on drivability. There are a lot of threads on this.
3. If new tires are in order, don't wait. Age, not wear is the issue with most RVs. I know that a lot of people swear by Michelins but they're very expensive and, IMHO, any good, name brand tire is fine. There are a lot of threads on this as well.
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Old 12-20-2019, 04:59 AM   #9
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Doug427: Winnebago's quality in 2004-9 is quit good. The Vectra comes off the same assembly line as the Horizon, but the cabinet quality is not the same based on the Vectra coaches I have seen. Itasca wood quality is excellent. I think there is a $10,000 difference between MSRP, but that goes away over time. Would I buy a Vectra? Absolutely. Would I prefer to buy an Itaca? Absolutely. Otherwise, it's the same coach.

Definitely go 38/40'. You will not have any trouble driving it. And a ISC-350 will two just fine. Note: This does not apply if you like to frequent the beaches in California where the state parks are limited to 32' or so. (So go to Texas and drive on the beaches of Port Aranzas, which is far better anyway!) However, we all like to frequent places near where we live.

For more info on my upgrades go to the link I referred you to. I would mention it here, but I don't want to "hijack" this post any more than I am.

Answer your other questions: I got installed a GE Refrigerator Model #GTS16GSHCRSS ($650) at HD or Lowes. I can't remember, but you have to shop both. I like the stainless steel. It makes the coach look more modern too.

And yes... if you boondock a lot and don't have at least 400W of solar panels on your roof then you may not want to upgrade to a residential refrigerator. However, once you have one you will NEVER want a gas frig again. Not to mention you will never have a repair bill.

People also like Toyo tires. I can't say from personal experience, but I can tell you to NOT buy those so called "RV" branded tires from Michelin. Make sure you buy the Truck STEER Tires! There's great. (I bought mine in Oregon where there is no sales tax. I also like the Equal stuff you put in the tire.)

Final note: I can't tell if you are "working" those owners or not. You say you are looking at 2 very nice coaches. If they are both dealers, then I have no issues. But if you are working a private owner over and you don't buy then that's not nice! (IMO)

BTW: I'm reading about ISL engines suffering catastrophic failure. I think it has to do with piston pins. You should investigate further. Note: This not a reason to not buy a ISL-400. Also, you will like the extra HP over the ISC-350, but FYI the ISC-350 engine is the same in every way to the ISL-400, except the stroke on the 400 is longer. (Same pistons, turbo, everything!) Cummins could have called it an ISC-400, but the didn't.

The CAPS injection pumps are also failing due to ULSD fuels, which don't have the sulfur in them like they use to. Sulfur is a lubricant. And FASS replaces the stock lift pump, but the purpose is to protect the CAPS pump from running on low vacuum pressure. ...Go to iRV2 Forums This is where most of us post mechanical subjects and on this forum I tend to only post upgrades, but you can do anything you want.

The one piece fiberglass roof is a better product, but Winnebago uses a molded roof with no steel. It's to save weight. The problem is at the roof gutter edge. They call for annual roof maintenance... anyone with RV experience can inspect. Some people apply Eternabond Tape, but cosmetically there is a penalty.

And since I'm being so opinionated here (my apologies to all) the Independent Front Suspension (IFS) is another "must have." Specifically, you like the turning radius and your coach will not rock as much... every time you enter a parking lot where the curb transitions to the street.

All this stuff you can research on this forum and iRV2 Forums

And now that we have shared all this information with you, I hope you tell us which coach you buy. ...And don't be afraid to pay more for a coach with all the upgrades you want, because it will take you 100's of hours an lots of money to do it yourself. ...But it is good therapy if that is what you are looking for. Just know you will "hate" driving the coach to a mechanic and paying their bills. And no one wants to work on your RV for cheap! ...Which is great motivation to do it yourself if yo can. For example: I'm guessing you will get a quote of $3,500 - $5,000 to do the refrigerator upgrade. ...I paid $650 and got free delivery. Then I tiped the boyz to put the frig in the kitchen and I finished the installation. I didn't have to, but I wanted to. They were glad they did not have to install it. (You need to remove the passenger seat and lift the frig over the dash. It takes 2 big guys!)
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Old 12-20-2019, 07:40 AM   #10
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Thanks for all that information. I'm trying to learn as much as I can so I can make a better choice. I'm not working over private owners, the two that I am really focused in on are with used RV dealers. I'm not "working" them in a traditional sense, we haven't even discussed $ yet. They have their asking price, so I know what basic neighborhood we're in. I don;t know what the market is like with regard to what their typical markup is on there. For a dealer who does not sell new RV's only used, what can you typically get off the asking price? One guy is asking mid $70K and one guy is asking $80k. Is it reasonable to offer $1K less? $5K less? More? I don't know what margins guys like this are working with. At this point I'm just looking at the units to see which I like better, using forums like this to see what the options are and which I want, which I need, and which I might want to avoid.



I appreciate all the great input that you and everyone on here has shared. I
ll make the move after the holidays are over. In the mean time if anyone has an idea what might be a reasonable off that allows the dealer to make a living and me to get what I want at the best price, I''d appreciate it! I'm not one to try to get every penny I can off, the dealer needs to eat too. However I certainly don't want to leave excessive money on the table either or make an insulting offer.
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Old 12-20-2019, 11:53 PM   #11
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I think I need to restate a few things I said earlier.

Vectra wood quality is just as good a Itasca. There are different interior packages and I'm sure if a Vectra came with the top of the line interior the wood and fabric would compare to Itasca. Of course, back in 2004-6 there were owners who "ordered to specification." That said, I'm guessing many stock Vectras I have seen don't look like they have the same wood stain, light accessory, and cloth patterns on the valance. Likewise, if your sofa is cloth and not the luxury vinyl material that may signal the interior level that the coach was delivered to the dealer or the owner.

And there are a lot of different couch types. None of which constitute a Go-No-Go decision, because you have to look at the coach as a whole: Roof interior more than exterior, repair records, regular use is good, how it was stored, where it was stored (not a fan of Florida or Washington where it's too humid), lived in or not, I prefer and ISC-350, tires, Dash AC, Basement AC, and everything else you can identify.)

And while there are a number of dealers who do a good job serving their community and only sell "good RVs that have been mechanically checked out, this NOT the norm.

I'm going to bet 90% of the RV they sell used were bought an a RV auction and don't come with any history. This will be obvious if you are looking at the repair log which may or may not be available for viewing, because the dealer does not want you to look at it most of time, unless it's exceptional and will help them sell the coach. (Which is a good sign.)

Most of the time you buy a RV of this vintage from a dealer and you are throwing the dice. But fortunately, the type of person who buys a Vectra or Horizon will take care of it until some health issue intervenes.

Find out where the coach comes from by looking at it's license plate or better still where the repair records say it's from.

I bought a National "Tradewinds" RV (38-ft DP) once from an outfit in Portland, OR and the SOB put ice cubes in the refrigerator. Then sent me on my way with the impression the ice maker worked. (Can you believe that!) Then on my first trip... when the ice maker was not working, I took it to a Camping World, because they were the most visible repair facility I could find, and the mechanic showed me the back of the gas refrigerator and the water line to the ice maker had not been hooked up for who knows how many years.

I'm not saying all dealers work like this, but that is the last coach I will buy from a dealer!

...But even the RV I now have, the owner showed me the Norcold (4-door) refrigerator working just fine on electrical power. And ultimately, we agreed on $70,000.

Note: My RV also has a $10,000 HWH Active Air System I like a lot too, but I doubt you will find this upgrade any where. I only mention it here because it's a nice upgrade just in case you run into it.

Anyway, I hit the road in my "new to me RV" and the whole refrigerator temperature would not go below 50F. And then I lost about $150 of refrigerator items.

So I called the owner up and complained. He then sent me a 2 month old receipt for $1,500... he just spent to put one of those Amish Cooling Unit Overhauls (supposedly the best) in the gas Norcold; and all he would say was this: "The refrigerator worked fine before I took delivery." ...And it did, but that Norcold "fire trap" would only run properly on AC-110V power.

So just because the refrigerator works under AC-cord power, you really need to confirm it will cool properly from a "stored condition" to 42F overnight... and that both the freezer and refrigerator are working properly.

FYI, I sort of let this refrigerator issue slide for several reasons:

* I wanted to put a residential refrigerator in the coach anyway.
* There was no way I was going to spend a dime to repair a Norcold. They may look good for a gas refrigerator, but a Dometic type has a better following.
* I think all gas refrigerators are a POTENTIAL, repeat, potential fire hazard. (See picture of another coach... there are a lot more!)
* The owner gave me a good price.
* ...And the #1 reason I accepted this situation and moved on, was because I loved my 40AD floorplan and I have not regretted buying this Itasca "Horizon" 40AD one bit.

FYI: There is a whole industry that repairs gas refrigerators, and 2 years ago this was a big debate. But that debate is pretty much settled now, and I challenge you find a high-end coach that still sells a gas unit anymore.

Note: When it comes to running your residential refrigerator off the inverter, there are two conditions which will make up your mind about this upgrade:

a) You drive a lot and when you do stay more than 3-5 days at any one place you have AC-power. Then no problem. You will love your new residential refrigerator! No doubt about it!

b) If you boondock a lot then running your generator is your only option and you will run it 6 hours/day. That's about 4 gallons of diesel fuel.($15/day) But if you have to run your air conditioner, because you are in hot or humid areas, then you have to run your generator anyway, which means you up to 6 gallons of diesel fuel/day!

So when you hear people talk about the "boondocking factor" when it comes to keeping your gas refrigerator or upgrading to a residential refrigerator, then these people are really talking about all travel where it's not hot!!!

Note: I have 400W of solar panels and that only buys me another day of boondocking without running my generator. That's all. Of course, I don't like running my batteries lower than 50% so you have to consider how nice you want to treat your house batteries too.

I truly think the best RVs on the road in the 60K-90K range are the Winnebago Vectras and Horizons in the 2004-6 range!

All will take maintenance of all kinds. It does not matter how many miles are on the rig. (Maybe over 200K, but I have never reached that point.) I'm at 100,000 miles now an my rig is in top-top mechanical condition. In fact, after putting almost 10,000 miles on my RV in 2019, I think the engine started to run better around the 95,000 mile mark... after I added the FASS Lift Pump.

I think the time to do most upgrades is when you have to spend money fixing something. Until then you can just run it AS-IS and then schedule a major project or two every year. This year, I'm looking at floor options. And in these regards, that flat floor poses some challenges when it comes to laying down vinyl. (Most if not all owners are reporting scratches behind the driver's seat.) Anyway, this is on my calendar for 2020.

...Again. I don't mean to scare you into upgrading to a residential refrigerator, but you need to know this happens. More than you know, because just like you don't hear about people jumping out of Las Vegas Hotel windows... it happens more often than you know.

End.

PS
I too am very mechanical. And I use to own both a Beech Bonanza and Baron. So I like log books! Dealers hate a buyer like me! And frankly their not my favorite type of people either, but a knowledgeable sales person with a good product is someone I can work with. Just remember, their job is to tell you whatever you need to her in order to get you to write a check. It's fundamental. You don't buy... they don't eat. ...And you would be wise not to forget that.

Note: I don't think you can buy mechanical breakdown insurance on this old of a coach, but if you go ISL-400 you might want to investigate this more. (Sorry guys... but all you have to do is search ISL-400 on www.irv2.com and you will read about engine problems, and as the fleet gets older we may see more engine failures. The ISC-350 on the other hand is workhorse and has a great reputation.)
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:12 AM   #12
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Thanks Mark - talk to you soon!
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Old 12-21-2019, 03:39 PM   #13
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For what it's worth, here's a thread that seems to cover both sides of the Norcold refrigerator issue so you can make up your own mind:

Any Norcold fires since last recall ? (revisited) - iRV2 Forums

Personally, I'm of the opinion that there have been problems and some recalls, that there are risks but the problem has been vastly overblown. Just because X number of houses burn every year from a gas water heater fire, I'm not going to convert to electric at home. Post #14 (not mine) of the above link kind of sums it up:

OMG!
We're all gonna burn, run away, run away!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If such fires were as common as you claim we all would have seen multiples of multiples of them. In 40+ years of RV'ing I have not personally seen a single refer fire. Ever. Not one. We spend 3 to 5 months a year in our RV.

Brakes. Water heaters. Engine compartments. Power converters. Batteries. Coleman lanterns. Microwave ovens. Lights. And probably more that I don't remember. But never a refer.

I found the statistics several months ago and there was nothing to substantiate these outrageous claims. I found the same handful of incidents reported again and again. But certainly not 2000 in 11 years, and especially not 1 a day!

Note to administrators: I suggest that you treat all threads about Norcold fires the same as Political, religious, and Apple VS PC.
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Old 12-22-2019, 02:28 AM   #14
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Gas Refrigerator Talk

BobC: Is right to point out there are still tons of gas refrigerator running just fine.

But the reference he is pointing to is over 6 years old. And back then everyone was debating the benefits and resale value of installing a residential refrigerator. ...Not anymore!

Back then, pure-sine wave inverters were just establishing themselves too. And today we're starting to see Lithium Ion golf cart batteries being sold at lower prices. (Albeit this is still to rich for my blood.)

My testimonial: For 5 years and 40,000 miles, there was never one day I wished I kept my old 4-door Norcold. Not one! And every day I look at it, I think my RV looks more modern with the stainless steel residential refrigerator installed!

And even more important, I have not spent $1 on refrigerator maintenance.

Gas absorption refrigerators have a least 7 major problems as far as I am concerned:

1) A Norcold 4-door is smaller than the residential size you can install in the same hole.

2) The Norcold will consume hundreds of dollars in maintenance to keep running over the years; and each time it fails on your vacation, there goes your food!

3) The cost of a new Norcold is in the $3,000 range and to install it is more like $4,000-$4,500. A new, beautiful, stainless steel, residential refrigerator with 17 cu-ft and a real ice maker with cost you $700-$800 and $1,000 to install. (Okay $2,000 because everyone bills you more than they should.)

...And your Dimensions Inverter (quaizi-sine) will work just fine with the model I installed so don't tell me you need to upgrade to a pure sine inverter if you want to install a residential refrigerator in your Winnebago with a 2000W Dimensions quaizi-sine unit.

Note: Will I upgrade to a pure-sine wave inverter one day? Sure will... the day my Dimensions Inverter quits, because I don't believe in repairing the Dimensions unit... not to mention no one repairs these things! (Anchors)

Side note: You should not use a digital heating blanket with a square-wave inverter either, because there are many report these type of controls will catch on fire. Solution: Buy the heated blanket with the old rotary dial.

4) The Norcold isn't bad looking for a RV frig, but it still looks like a cheap refrigerator inside. And I don't like those shelves and door storage design... and I hate the freezer!

5) It takes 4-6 hours to get a Norcold remotely cold and you have to wait overnight to get the temperature into the low 40's. And it does not recover as fast as a residential refrigerator after you open and close the door a few times.

6) And when you park your rig with the sun beating down on the gas refrigerator side of the RV... I bet you will be at 44F or more. ( And what do the pundits say about that? "...So don't open your door as often... so what!"

7) You can say fires are rare and uncommon -- and you would be right! But 1000's of fires were occurring every every year! ...I'm sure there are less now, but that percentage is down only because all of the Class-A fleet is going residential. You do know there are lawyers who specialize in RV refrigerator fires! That should tell you something.

THIS IS IMPORTANT TOO: The more often an absorption frig runs and then sits (just like RVs are used) the more you increase its chances it will catch fire!

And if you don't know why then you need read about blockage and how the physics of a gas-absorbsion-ammonia refrigerator works. Here a general, simple reference, but you should look for others:

Testing an Absorption Refrigerator Cooling Unit

Would I buy a 10 year old gas absorption refrigerator. Yes, but with one condition. Does that surprise you? ...This technology has been around since the mid-1800's (yes that long ago). It works great. But all RV owners start and stop and often run their absorption refrigerator on non-level ground. So the only way I would buy a gas frig is if I knew the RV owners keep the frig running 365 days per year (level) or left it turned off for years at a time. And how many RV owners do that?

Simply: If you have a power source, get rid of that gas absorption refrigerator as soon as possible... and definitely at the first sign you need a repair.

It's not worth $50 to fix. Okay, may $50, but the cheapest bill to repair it will be in the $200 range; and event if you spend $1,500 to $2,000 to install one of those cooling units, there still is no guarantee it will work right.

If the residential refrigerator needs repair, anyone can do that in your RV. Or you can go get a new one.

Other considerations: Don't use a residential refrigerator with a square-wave inverter. The Dimensions is a Quaizi-Sine Invertor you can use with certain model of residential refrigerators, but not all. And you really do need to research this. If you have a pure-sine-wave inverter, then use whatever residential refrigerator that best fits in your gas frig hole.

There are two types of RV owners out there: "Those with residential refrigerators and everyone else." And yes... this is a mindset.
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Old 12-22-2019, 10:45 AM   #15
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So if I replace the fridge, what model Samsung are people using now? Trying to keep track of the back and forth on the posts is dizzying. The feedback on the Samsung is 50/50. If not the Samsung then what make, and just as importantly, what model? Is anyone able to point me to a good link on replacing the fridge in a Vectra/Horizon with a residential - Samsung or otherwise?



I've read about removing the windshield and passing it through on a forklift, which I REALLY don't want to do unless it's absolutely necessary. I have also heard that it'll squeeze in through the door with about 1/4" to spare and all you have to do is remove the passenger seat. Is that accurate? If so that sounds like the better of a bad situation type thing.


What mods need to be done to the cabinet? Also, some sort of vents need to be blocked off?



Thanks guys.
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Old 12-24-2019, 03:40 PM   #16
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This thread is supposed to be about a rust behind the windshield and here we are talking about refrigerators. ...So maybe it would be best if you start a new thread after you look for other threads on this subject.

Note: Older Samsung refrigerators have different circuity than the newer Samsung models; so when you read the older threads on the best RV residential refrigerator to buy... chance are you are not going find the model the "OP" wrote about.

I just don't know what those model numbers are? Hence the need for a new, updated thread on the subject.

I think a pure sine wave inverter will power all refrigerator types the best since it has the cleanest AC wave form. However, FYI, most people do not know the AC refrigerator has it's own AC-DC converter in side and it's this circuitry that is import for non-pure-sine wave inverter applications..

So I recommend you start a new thread to learn more from other owners who know something about this subject... if you do NOT have a pure sine wave inverter.
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Old 12-24-2019, 04:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
This thread is supposed to be about a rust behind the windshield and here we are talking about refrigerators. ...So maybe it would be best if you start a new thread after you look for other threads on this subject.

Note: Older Samsung refrigerators have different circuity than the newer Samsung models; so when you read the older threads on the best RV residential refrigerator to buy... chance are you are not going find the model the "OP" wrote about.

I just don't know what those model numbers are? Hence the need for a new, updated thread on the subject.

I think a pure sine wave inverter will power all refrigerator types the best since it has the cleanest AC wave form. However, FYI, most people do not know the AC refrigerator has it's own AC-DC converter in side and it's this circuitry that is import for non-pure-sine wave inverter applications..

So I recommend you start a new thread to learn more from other owners who know something about this subject... if you do NOT have a pure sine wave inverter.
New thread coming up - great idea!


EDIT: Here is the new thread........ http://www.winnieowners.com/forums/f...ml#post3851700
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Old 12-25-2019, 10:41 PM   #18
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Imprsd, you are the one that seems to have stole the thread. And not with the best advice either.
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Old 12-26-2019, 10:10 AM   #19
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In your search, keep in mind, that although there are truly some problems out there with rusted windshield frames, contrary to some threads, not all Winnebago's have the problem. The Vectra is a top-of-the-line product, a good choice in my opinion. It would be prudent to drive and camp in your new rig for a while before deciding to change anything.

Refers, a whole different situation. Lots of options, run it till it breaks, replace the cooling unit with something different, replace with residential, all can be valid choices. In my case, due to a failure, I replaced the cooling unit with a new Norcold unit 2 months after the original warranty ran out. Then got 8 years of more-or-less satisfactory use. 45 days ago, the cooling unit gave out again. Getting a residential refer that we would like, into the coach and existing cabinetry was a huge limiting factor. We opted for a new 'compressor' cooling unit from JC Refrigeration. It was cheaper than a new Norcold unit, easier to install, eliminates the propane, fire hazard, leveling concerns, and really cranks out the cold! As for boondocking, it only uses 66w of power when running, easily handled by our existing 1000w inverter. I am very pleased with its performance over the last month of use.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:50 AM   #20
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I'm late to the game. Did u buy one?
As far as price, did you book it out? New tires and batteries can be part of the deal.

We hae a 2003 40' Ultimate Freedom which is
supposed to be top of their fleet during their years of production. I think it ended in 2010. It booked in the low 70s and we bought it for $60k with 60k miles. 400 Cummins, Spartan chassis. We had them put on new tires, Toyo, and new house batteries as part of the deal. It was under consignment.

The inside is like brand new, same with the outside. One owner. A elderly couple was selling it.... We dealt with the dealer....

This is the time of year to get good deals. Work over the dealer good, he'll be working you over. Don't be afraid to walk away. There are a ton of rigs out there for sale...

With our purchase, we couldn't be happier. Any windshield chips can be filled. We have a few.... Good luck! Let us know what u finally do.
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