Freightliner 24 month air filter???

[TheArnolds]

Originally Posted by ka7suz

The clear solution is, if you don't like the cost of maintaining a diesel engine, trade it off for a gas engine.

JoAnn

X2 plus I do what is necessary to maintain my warranty and if Freightliner tells me to do something at a certain interval I do it!

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by cbeierl

Before you invest in a K&N filter you might want to read these test reports and see how the K&N actually performs:

Air Filter Comparison Study - GM Truck Central

ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

Great information. Thanks. Looks like I want to go with the AC Delco if they make a filter for my coach. But it is interesting how in the first link they seemed to be pushing Amsoil. I have never found a good test against any of their products. They are just popular, as K&N, because of good advertising I guess.

In one of the other comments the writer told us that the filter on the coach was removed, inspected and reinstalled. How can a sealed canister be thoroughly inspected? The air flow indicator is there to indicate clogging, so what's up with the time and labor for pulling and inspecting? And what about the TWO YEAR glue?

Why do I think I started this whole thing because I believed misinformation from Freightliner? Do I owe everyone an apology? One good thing that has come out of this is a lot of heavy thinking and great discussion.

I must say that I am having a bit of a problem with what I have discovered about what Freightliner requires of us for maintenance. Are we flying or driving? I think they have taken their cue from the FAA. Do we really need all of the in depth maintenance required for the type of use most of us put our RV's through? Or are they looking at worst case scenarios and dumping that upon us?

[jerichorick]

One question not asked that I will ask now. How many folks out there have had, or heard of, a paper air filter coming apart and tearing up and engine? Any one? Even web rumors? Anything at all? Diesel mechanics out there, what is your input?

[jerichorick]

By Triker56: "Both reports are with the K & N oil filled filters. Used mostly in gas engines. Not close to being made the same as the one for DP."

Please look again. The tests are on AIR FILTERS. True. Not commercial grade, but air filters just the same.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by UsualSuspect

That is way I look it at. I change my own air filter ($67 and 30 minutes of time), but Frightliner does the rest, yearly fuel filter, oil/oil filter, lube and DOT Inspection is $550. They even pull off the wheels and inspect the brake shoes and tires.

That makes good sense except the air filter if it is still doing its job. Do you retorque your lugs after 100 miles as prescribed by your maintenance guide?

I am using Royal Purple and I don't change oil yearly. I have had tests done on it and it always comes back fine two or even three years in the crankcase. I might be considered 'trailer trash' by some of the folks out there on the upper scale of the economy but I am liking my lifestyle and doing my best to stay on the road. I lean toward experiences, mine and others, over traditions and predetermined schedules. I can't afford them and I have not suffered adversely (yet). I don't think I will because the equipment is not that delicate. I have more trouble with the coach related systems than with the chassis. We stay out of snow and salt and avoid long drives on really bad roads. We do what we can to protect our home without going to the excess.

Happy trails,

Rick

[wb7auk]

The filter company puts the build date on the filter and the person that changes it
should put the date and mileage on it when installing it.
All filters tested under the ISO 5011 are subjected to the same test so they can be
compared.
The problem is getting those results from the filter companies and in some cases
it is hard or impossible. (wonder why?).
You do not see a engine company very often come out and say if you use this filter
and we can show any connection to the the filter your warranty is void.
When it comes to K&N who will not give you the cfm,efficiency, or holding ability
of their filter that is a red flag.

[dsbike]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

By Triker56: "Both reports are with the K & N oil filled filters. Used mostly in gas engines. Not close to being made the same as the one for DP."

Please look again. The tests are on AIR FILTERS. True. Not commercial grade, but air filters just the same.

Not sure of your point here, but if I read your statement correctly, you are questioning the fact of oil filled filter. The K&N AIR Filter used in this study is in fact an OIL FILLED AIR FILTER. Not to be confused with the K&N Washable heavy duty air filter for diesel engines.
Please forgive me if I misunderstood your statement. I do not personally recommend for or against the K&N filters. I know they have a great reputation in the automotive industry for some of their applications. However I also know their oil filled air filters are not for all applications & you should research their use for your application before installing. I do however use Amsoil products and have had great success with them.

[wb7auk]

From K&N and carefully read it.
The real eye opener is near the end where the efficiency of their filters is addressed.
Almost all filters start at or above 99% and go up from there as the filter is used.

K&N Air Filter Efficiency Testing

[Triker56]

Please look again. The tests are on AIR FILTERS. True. Not commercial grade, but air filters just the same.

Look again? The test was with a K & N oil filled paper air filter not the commercial grade air filters that are built from a new hybrid filter medium that incorporates some of the best characteristics of both cotton and synthetic non-woven technologies.

They do not require any oil treatment and use a 3-D lofted filter surface to help reduce air filter restriction.

Comparing the paper filters in the test to the washable filter is like comparing apples to peas.

Test does not show how many more miles a engine will run using the best paper filter to the poorest one in the test. That would be the test I would like to see.
Are they a 1,000, 5,000, 50,000, 100,000 or more mile difference?

[mel s]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

I am not far from Gaffney, SC and Freightliner Custom Chassis. So, why not give them a call and take the coach in for some PM work? I call them today. In our conversation about what services I wanted done the person on the other end of the line informed me that my air filter had to be changed because it is a 24 month one. (????) I have never heard of this in my life. I asked why because the vacuum indicator is reading fine. Well, according to the service center the glue used in manufacturing the filter breaks down after 24 months and pieces of the filter can be sucked into the engine!!!
I was so flabbergasted by this news I did not have enough wit to ask who will pay for the replacement of the filter and is this to be an ongoing issue.

Has anyone out there in irv2 land heard about this? Or are a lot of you just hearing of this for the first time, meaning you are driving time bombs for engine failure due to the air filter falling apart.

Now I am concerned about driving the 115 miles to Gaffney. Will I destroy the engine!!!

I've changed replaced my air filter only 3 times in 12 years, (105 k miles).
Each time determined by the vacuum meter, (not by years or mileage).
Each time the used filter was in perfect condition, (it was NOT breaking down/falling apart)!
Mel
'96 Safari , 3126 Cat.

[doorguy]

At the Camp Freightliner, Mike Cody was specific about adamant about changing the air filter every 2 years. I do this. I just became aware that K&N has one now that fits my coach and it is a cleanable one w/o the oiling that other K&N filters require. I initially thought I may be interested. So I calculated that with the initial outlay of the K&N at $337 + tax, and the $67+ tax for the Racor(from FL dealer), the initial cost of the K&N would be about $270(figuring I would have to by a Racor anyway). So, at 68 years of age(me, not the coach), and the coach being an 04, and replacing the Racor every 2 years, I figure it would take me 8 years to amortize the cost of the K&N. In 8 years at this point in my life, who knows what health issues I may have and I will probably upgrade the unit by then. So, I will stick with the replacing every two years.

Just my ramblings.....

[Mekanic]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

......
Why do I think I started this whole thing because I believed misinformation from Freightliner? Do I owe everyone an apology? One good thing that has come out of this is a lot of heavy thinking and great discussion.

I must say that I am having a bit of a problem with what I have discovered about what Freightliner requires of us for maintenance. Are we flying or driving? I think they have taken their cue from the FAA. Do we really need all of the in depth maintenance required for the type of use most of us put our RV's through? Or are they looking at worst case scenarios and dumping that upon us?

Freightliner is owned by Daimler, A German company. The German philosophy is the drivers/owners drive and PAY for servicing of the vehicle. They want you to go to the dealers and PAY for service.
When they owned Chrysler Their cars were the same way. Most of them didn't even have a trans dipstick. Just a rubber plug in the dipstick tube marked "Dealer use only" .

[ga traveler]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

One question not asked that I will ask now. How many folks out there have had, or heard of, a paper air filter coming apart and tearing up and engine? Any one? Even web rumors? Anything at all? Diesel mechanics out there, what is your input?

I have posted this in the past. We had a cherry diesel pusher. It was spotless and in new condition. We were reparking the lot and started all the motorhomes. I heard a small knock from the engine. I called the dealership owner and advised him of the problem and said it was under warrenty. Of course he said to take it to the cat. dealer. They called the next day and said the air filter had come apart and been sucked into the turbo and the engine. They said it was NOT a warrenty item. The air filter was out of date and there was no coverage. This was put on the main computer and we could not take it to another state and get coverage. We had to sell the motorhome at a big discount. This is not a rumor, It happened to me in 2008.

[FRR2EYW]

The reason the air filter from Freightliner only costs 67 dollars is because it is made of paper and glue. One designed to last longer time wise costs almost 4 times as much. The flow/change indicator is there to tell you if the airflow is restricted to the point it needs to be changed before the regular service interval.

Rick, you didn't say if you had ever been to the Camp Freightliner class. Since you are close, I would highly recommend it. It is worth every penny you pay for it. You will have a much better understanding of your chassis and engine. I learned something that saved me well over the cost of the class.

Possibly fragging an engine that costs tens of thousands of dollars to replace because of a $67 part does not make sense to me personally, FWIW.

[1ciderdog]

Originally Posted by doorguy

At the Camp Freightliner, Mike Cody was specific about adamant about changing the air filter every 2 years. I do this. I just became aware that K&N has one now that fits my coach and it is a cleanable one w/o the oiling that other K&N filters require. I initially thought I may be interested. So I calculated that with the initial outlay of the K&N at $337 + tax, and the $67+ tax for the Racor(from FL dealer), the initial cost of the K&N would be about $270(figuring I would have to by a Racor anyway). So, at 68 years of age(me, not the coach), and the coach being an 04, and replacing the Racor every 2 years, I figure it would take me 8 years to amortize the cost of the K&N. In 8 years at this point in my life, who knows what health issues I may have and I will probably upgrade the unit by then. So, I will stick with the replacing every two years.

Just my ramblings.....

Barry,
good thinking.
Bob

[RinkersRanch]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

One question not asked that I will ask now. How many folks out there have had, or heard of, a paper air filter coming apart and tearing up and engine? Any one? Even web rumors? Anything at all? Diesel mechanics out there, what is your input?

I was going to stay out of this, but you ask for Diesel mechanic to respond. I think I can qualify as sort of a diesel wrench. I worked for Caterpillar from '69 to '07. The first 21 as a mechanic in the earthmoving division. The last 17 and a Caterpillar Certified regional dealer Trainer. enough of that.

First: When Cat started using paper elements in the late '60's the air filter change recommendation was 'at air indicator restriction, or every 12 months'. As filter media and adhesives improved in the middle to late '70's this was extended to 'indicator or 24 mo.' so this is not something new to the diesel industry.
Next: Yes, I have had to replace / repair a hand full of Turbochargers, and maybe some catastrophic engine failures, (but that is hard to prove) from ingesting a severely deteriorated air filter. the biggest problem is when the filter media / adhesives fail, that allows in dirt and slowly grinds and engine to death. (oil analysis will show this)
Last: I do not understand not being willing to spend a couple hundred dollars and a little time, to protect several thousands of dollars of engine equipment, when most of us will spend hundreds of dollars monthly to watch satellite TV and have Internet access, just for entertainment. I have seen what a lack of maintenance looks like. For all my cars, truck, motorcycle, and RV, I always use the same fluids, filters, and change intervals. Mostly OEM on the filters. I could bore you with pages of why to always use the same brand of oil. But as they say 'that's another story'.

I took Caterpillar courses on maintenance and taught equipment maintenance for over 17 years. It is a fact that due to the amount of dry air flowing through an air filter will cause the filter media and adhesive to break down, and possibly fail. When? Testing has shown that air filters will be usable in service for up to 24 months. When they would fail after the 24 months is not predictable. So to help reduce unexpected failure the 24 month time frame was set for air filters. I would not be too worried about bits of paper getting into the engine. If a particle made it into the combustion chamber I'm confident that 3000 degree burn of fuel will incinerate paper most completely. My biggest concern would be some the adhesive particles being stuck to an impeller blade of a turbo and causing it to fail, or making it through the turbo and sticking at a hot intake valve and causing it to burn. Oil, Filters, and well all maintenance is cheap insurance against unexpected failure. What is that old saying 'pay me now or pay me later'. I would rather pay a little now and still be running later.

[Mike_Harriet]

X2 rinkersranch. I worked as a maintenance supervisor in an u/g coal mine for 18 yrs. we were the first Diesel u/g mine in the country at the time. Coal mines spray the walls, ceilings, and floors with "rock dust" , which is VERY fine ground limestone. Finer than talcum powder. The engines we used were (Cat,Deutz,Cummins, MWM). Our filter costs were unbelievable. Our parent company ran many tests trying to find cheaper alternatives. Finally settled on Baldwin, Cat, and Deutz(special fuel filter requirements-fire rating). K&N was tried just for surface equipment, but turned out to have marginal performance and higher costs. We changed the filters every 24 hours. I agree that was an extreme situation, but the risk of not following manuf recommendations seems high. Also we Only had one filter failure-engine destroyed , and it was due to operator error. The filter wasn't changed for 36 hrs, and was so packed with dust the engine finally ingested the whole thing. Boom.
Sometimes it's "pay me now, or pay me later"

Just my .02.

[smlranger]

Well, this has been an interesting read but, for me, I agree with the folks who say replacing a filter every two years on an engine that would cost thousands to rebuild/replace is a no-brainer for me. My Baldwin air filter element cost me a whopping $53.97 at my local Advantage Fleet parts counter. It will be changed at the 24 month interval for sure.

Now, having owned a Winnebago Journey rear radiator coach on a FL chassis for 8 years, I will admit changing that air filter was a hassle. Side radiator rigs with a filter housing that is within reach is nice for sure.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by ga traveler

I have posted this in the past. We had a cherry diesel pusher. It was spotless and in new condition. We were reparking the lot and started all the motorhomes. I heard a small knock from the engine. I called the dealership owner and advised him of the problem and said it was under warrenty. Of course he said to take it to the cat. dealer. They called the next day and said the air filter had come apart and been sucked into the turbo and the engine. They said it was NOT a warrenty item. The air filter was out of date and there was no coverage. This was put on the main computer and we could not take it to another state and get coverage. We had to sell the motorhome at a big discount. This is not a rumor, It happened to me in 2008.

What a sad but informative story. I feel bad for you. So, this proves it can happen.

Now the question is about the date of the filter. Had the filter been services within 2 years?

[TheArnolds]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

What a sad but informative story. I feel bad for you. So, this proves it can happen.

Now the question is about the date of the filter. Had the filter been services within 2 years?

I feel bad too however someone was responsible for an out of date filter, the owner if it was not serviced per maintenance requirements and was operating based on the condition of the clog indicator or the person/service shop who installed an out of date or near out of date filter that would not make the next service interval.

The 12 months or 15000 mile Freightliner checklist states to "inspect and replace" which means if the filter fails inspection to replace. To me this includes looking at the date of the filter to see if it is out or near out of date and to change it regardless how good it looks.

We do this for our tires, change them if they get too old regardless of physical condition so why is it such a surprise to need to do it for an air filter? I see very few complain if they need to time change several thousands of dollars worth of tires but they would complain about a $100 filter.