dual pane window - lost seal

[Rich K]

I'm currently at the Winnebago Factory and they just quoted me $811.60 for the drivers side front window replacement plus about 2 hours of labor. This is the entire side window assembly for my coach (including the top pane), since they said they cannot just replace the one dual pane glass which is affected. The only glass which is clouded from my seal leaking is the sliding piece of glass.

I am going to look at the other solutions suggested in this thread, since $1000 is a bit much for a window IMHO, especially since it is clear that poor manufacturing is the cause as evidenced by all the other owners with the same exact problem location.

I agree that this should be covered by the manufacturer and I am also going to file a complaint with the NHTSB.

[Izzyblueye]

Rich K: PLEASE DO, I have twice. It is a safety hazard pure and simple. I was quoted about the same ludicrous price you were. I just called the window factory again. They will sell you a replacement, but no assistance for lousy workmanship and quality. My local glass shop says it will be cheaper to replace than try to repair. They would just order from the same manufacturer. May have them take inside pane out and just operate on a single pane. Must be able to see right hand mirror clearly.

[Ruth C T]

Ken,
Darn lol, we should have put that in the agreement
They did fix the AC for us and apparently it was a major problem that would have cost a lot.
They fixed all kinds of small things that we wouldnt have even seen or known to look so we were quite pleased with their service.
They bought us new toppers (we didnt even ask) when they saw ours were a bit worn.
Hopefully we can get some kind of good price from them on the window.
Thanks for your reply and have a great weekend.
We are staying with our MOHO in the New Hope High school parking lot this weekend
because I'm selling my art at the NH outdoor art show.

[Saber67]

We have the problem with the passenger side window on our 2004 Brave. Our dealer said that the window alone would be $1000. Doesn't that seem to be a bit steep since the quality is questionable in the first place?

[Izzyblueye]

SABER6: $1000 to $1500 is what I have been quoted for the same window. The whole assembly has to be taken out. Then a sizable wait for a new unit to be made up. Worst of it is, I have talked to owners that lost the new one to fogging a year or so later. If tempered glass could be cut like ordinary glass, it would be relatively simple for most good automotive glass companies.

[David K]

Just jumping in here with a thought. If you were not looking for the insulated window, you might go to glass company that makes table tops -- that glass is tempered (car side windows and back windows) and they do know how to cut it like ordinary glass (they know how to "seal" the edges as it is cut). They could probably cut the glass to your dimentions if you could find some one to install it in the window opening. I have never pursued this line of thinking so I do not know if it is a viable option or not.

Another type of glass to use would be laminated glass (dual layer glass used in windshields on cars) which does have insulating properties and it can also be cut to size. Again, the installing after cut would be my question that I can not address.

[Izzyblueye]

David K: Thanks for your suggestion. I will check with my local glass shop and see if it is possible with them.

[tomsm]

Just an observation here... I read through all 5 pages of posts on this topic to see if there's anything I should be watching for. I was surprised to find that, other than Rich K's Journey, this doesn't seem to be happening to DPs. Seems to be almost exclusively Adventurers and Suncruisers. Could it be something in the framing/chassis connection that is transmitting engine vibration to the windows?

My Journey sat through a cat 4 hurricane back in '04, incurred ~$70K in damages, and yet not one of my windows has lost it's seal. Kind of hard to condemn Atwood for that kind of performance.

As I said, this is just an observation and maybe we're not looking at enough cases to see the big picture, but there sure seems to be a trend here...

[Jeeperrmartin]

Mine is a DP 1999 but also a Suncruiser. Last year they made the DP in the Suncruiser line.

[Izzyblueye]

tomsm: It is doubtful engine vibrations would have much to do with the soft seal that makes of the dual pane. This is happening with many manufacturers coaches, (as far as can be determined), always with ATWOOD windows. Now your observation concerning DP's might be valid, they may be using a different manufacturer, or possibly the design is different enough to not incur the problem. Most of the fogging seems to be with the dual panes in the cockpit area, however, there are several that have the problem with windows all through the coach.

[tomsm]

Homer - you're probably right about the engine vibrations. I was grasping at straws as to why it would be happening more to the gassers. I'm pretty sure my windows are made by Atwood, but perhaps they are a different, heavier model. If it ever does happen to mine, I've got this thread copied and stored away. Thanks for all the good input!

[David K]

Homer

I will be interested in what your glass man says. I have a 2002 Ultimate Advantage (diesel pusher) and I have a small problem with a driver side window (the one that I look through to see the rear view mirror) and also the glass in the door. Not fogged over yet and I can still see through but, I have been wondering about the laminated glass. I am going to take a hard "look see" in that direction when I get a chance. Maybe we can compare notes.

[Duner]

I was wondering if anyone has noticed if the lost seal/fogging problem has been greater in the more extreme temperature parts of the country???

Usually a lot of hot/cold cycles will speed up a marginal design and/or production defect. Other factors are high humidity (more moisture to fog) and high elevation >5000 ft transistion to low elevation causing pressure changes.

As an electronic design engineer, I personally experenced a huge problem with a bad seal on hundreds thousands of glass diodes used in our product back in 1977. Everything tested fine at the factory and then we air shipped $2 mil product to Brazil. Our product shipped in the unpressurized & unheated cargo section of the plane and then sat on pallets in the 100 deg & 98% humidity on the ground waiting days for customs approval. Analysis showed the diode glass to metal seal was marignal.

Since the dual pane windows has has been an ongoing problem for years now, it potentially could affect many of us in the coming years, depending on how much/often we are exposed to extremes in the environment.

Anyone observed any patterns in the reported cases here on the forum?

[NeilV]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Duner:
I was wondering if anyone has noticed if the lost seal/fogging problem has been greater in the more extreme temperature parts of the country???

Usually a lot of hot/cold cycles will speed up a marginal design and/or production defect. Other factors are high humidity (more moisture to fog) and high elevation &gt;5000 ft transistion to low elevation causing pressure changes.

As an electronic design engineer, I personally experenced a huge problem with a bad seal on hundreds thousands of glass diodes used in our product back in 1977. Everything tested fine at the factory and then we air shipped $2 mil product to Brazil. Our product shipped in the unpressurized & unheated cargo section of the plane and then sat on pallets in the 100 deg & 98% humidity on the ground waiting days for customs approval. Analysis showed the diode glass to metal seal was marignal.

Since the dual pane windows has has been an ongoing problem for years now, it potentially could affect many of us in the coming years, depending on how much/often we are exposed to extremes in the environment.

Anyone observed any patterns in the reported cases here on the forum? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill,

I was in the custom millworks bussiness for some years and maintained a window and door factory in New England and this is the nature of thermo pane windows. Seals fail and they fog or at times build up pressure and blow out. The only ones we had very few problems with the seals were the one peice design. No rubber seals just a continuous peice of glass. However these were not for use in vehicles as they were not available in safety glass.

Windows that get the morning sun or are subjected to quick temperature changes are more prone to failure as are those on or near doors and vibration.

Asside from temperature variations and vibration we also had glass fail due to improper instalation. Putting the glass in an opening that did not have enough clearence for the rubber pads especially on the bottom or that you could get the pads in but had to squeeze the glass into place could lead to a failure. A window frame that flexed too much or was not flat enough and would warp the glass when the beads were installed would lead to a failure. Hardening of the beding compound would cause the glass to hang in the openening instead of float and this could lead to a failure also. Rough handling during delivery or installation could also lead to a failure.

It was a catch22 for us. People want it and at times really need it so you have to offer it but it can be a warranty nightmare.

Personally in my home I have tilt sash aluminum framed thermopane widows all around. I installed them myself and have three that have failed. I even kow exactly when they failed as I was present when they were slammed shut and the seals were broken.

Am I shocked that there would be thermopane window problems when they are installed in a motorhome? Not really, the surprise would be if the opposite were true.

There are other options aside from thermopane such as have been discussed here and there is always the option of going to a custome glass shop and having a custom thermopane replacement made up if you feel the OEM glass was the problem.

Remember it could be the glass, the frame, the installer, the environment, the user or a combination of them that led to a particular failure.

[Izzyblueye]

David K: As soon as I find anything I will report back. Please do the same.

Duner: Hard question to answer. I live in the Mid West. No high elevations, but wide temperature changes, none very severe. I would think Winnebago and Atwood would take this into consideration when they design the product. Reports of defective dual panes seem to cover the entire country. If Winnebago was paying attention to these post and phone calls concerning this problem, one would think they would find the cure. It has been going on for many years and still is. I don't mean to single out Winnebago necessarily, as other manf have the same problem. It is a safety hazard when it happens in the area of the rear view mirrors, not to mention unsightly mess.

[Sidewinder]

A few years back I was doing home renovation in Arizona. I ran across an outfit that was repairing fogged windows in homes. They would drill a small hole in the top and bottom of the one glass from the inside. They had a secret 3 part spray they did with a small wand and vacumm. I believe one spray with some type of acid to clean the film that has formed betwen the glass, one spray with base solution to nuetralize the acid and one spray with distilled water. After the treatment they would reseal the two holes with clear sealer. This was all of the seceret I could extract from the Technicion. He couldn't do safety glass because you can't drill it. When finished the window nolonger had any thermal value but they stayed fog free and looked good.
I have worked on one of my windows and by drilling a hole directly through the seal between the two panes of glass I have removed aprox. 6" of the seal. This has allowed the fog to form and then disapear and is much better than it was but I can't figure what to spray between the panes to remove the old Haze. It look like a slight lime deposit.
Any Thoughs?
Ron

[Izzyblueye]

Sidewinder: Interesting concept you have there. Just as a W.A.G., what about the Cascade stuff women use in dishwashers that is supposed to remove lime deposits and etc. I use it (along with de-ionized water in the rinse on my coach and it does prevent water spotting to a large degree.

[DonavonP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sidewinder:
A few years back I was doing home renovation in Arizona. I ran across an outfit that was repairing fogged windows in homes. They would drill a small hole in the top and bottom of the one glass from the inside. They had a secret 3 part spray they did with a small wand and vacumm. I believe one spray with some type of acid to clean the film that has formed betwen the glass, one spray with base solution to nuetralize the acid and one spray with distilled water. After the treatment they would reseal the two holes with clear sealer. This was all of the seceret I could extract from the Technicion. He couldn't do safety glass because you can't drill it. When finished the window nolonger had any thermal value but they stayed fog free and looked good.
I have worked on one of my windows and by drilling a hole directly through the seal between the two panes of glass I have removed aprox. 6" of the seal. This has allowed the fog to form and then disapear and is much better than it was but I can't figure what to spray between the panes to remove the old Haze. It look like a slight lime deposit.
Any Thoughs?
Ron </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check out ZEP products at Home Depot. Get a small bottle of their Calcium, Lime, and Rust Stain Remover. See if that stuff will work for you. It IS acid and will etch the glass if you leave it in there too long. I think the second solution would be a clear water and the third solution would be alcohol. As a fourth step, I would use a can of air with the nozzle tube to blow out the residual alcohol fumes. (I'd cut that ZEP acid with lots of water)

No clue if this is what they're doing - just what I would try if I were interested.

I just had some windows replaced at home and I asked the technician if they ever clean the interior of double pane glass and he said somebody tried once but it didn't work. He was a nice guy but I don't think he was on the cutting edge of glass cleaning technology.

By the way, I had 2 each 72" x 60" and 2 smaller crank out windows (all with low E) replaced for 1800.00 One of the large panes was on the second floor and cost an extra 200.00 in labor. I'm a little stunned at the prices being quoted here for MH double panes by Atwood/MH dealers.

[donjoy]

HI; I've been reading the complaints on sealed windows that leak and fog so I thought i'de put in the latest thread.My 2001 suncruiser has the window problem and I'm finding it hard to get this window.I called atwood and was told they sold out the window line and told me to contact a company called Duncan.I got nowhere fast.I can't understand why it's so hard to find when I read that quite alot of winnies have this problem.YES I also think there should be a recall cause I can't see the mirror and the fogging makes it impossible to see.does anyone have info on where to get a new glass.The dealer told me a price of I think 3000.00 to replace it WOW!!!! Any help would be appreciated. THANKS DON

[mel s]

Originally Posted by donjoy

HI; I've been reading the complaints on sealed windows that leak and fog so I thought i'de put in the latest thread.My 2001 suncruiser has the window problem and I'm finding it hard to get this window.I called atwood and was told they sold out the window line and told me to contact a company called Duncan.I got nowhere fast.I can't understand why it's so hard to find when I read that quite alot of winnies have this problem.YES I also think there should be a recall cause I can't see the mirror and the fogging makes it impossible to see.does anyone have info on where to get a new glass.The dealer told me a price of I think 3000.00 to replace it WOW!!!! Any help would be appreciated. THANKS DON

donjoy
Suncoast Designers in Hudson FL, repairs fogged glass for $225-$250 per window: Window De-fogging | RV Window Repair Specialists in Hudson, FL

However many other glass companies can/will repair your fogged windows.
Google "foggy rv glass repair near - - -", (using your location).

Mel
'96 Safari