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Old 10-07-2015, 04:44 PM   #1
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Check those roof glue joints!!!!!

Ladies and Gents,
Our coach is an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330HP CAT. It's right at 11.5 years old and, a whopping 62K on the clock. I've always prided myself at keeping up on just about all aspects of maintenance/repairs/alterations/adjustments etc. I've read, as many of us have, of the horror stories of Winne and Itasca roofs either partially tearing loose or, the entire roof lifting as the coaches have been in motion.

So, we're prepping for a trip to the Sierras at the end of the month and I decided to give the big girl a bath. Well, in drying it, I have to get up on my tallest (10') ladder and get all the seams etc. While up there, on the drivers side, I thought I'd give a look to the roof seam, along the drip rail, just above the driver.

Well, I knew a while ago that, that caulking/glue that was the factory application, was cracked somewhat. It was one of those things that, "yeah, it's cracked but, no real signs of getting worse". I figured I'd get around to it someday.

Well, what I did just for the heck of it was PUSH on that radius of the roof, right next to the cracked caulking. YEOW That caulking was stuck to the roof sheeting but, NOT TO THE CHANNEL that it as originally stuck to. I could move that roof sheeting in, approximately an 1/8" away from that channel, for about 4' down the line, from the front cap intersection.

THAT SUCKS BIG TIME!! Well, that "get around to it someday," was TODAY!! So, I proceeded to get out all the tools, razor knifes, plastic scrapers and more and, go to work. Getting the old caulking/glue completely off and out of the way, can be a serious pain in the a$$. At times, it removed not too bad.

But, I managed to get that channel area and, the roof sheeting clean enough to be ready for replacement caulking/glue. Now, I have the Winnebago/Itasca sealant PDF for all the important assembly points but, I didn't feel like calling them and going through all the hassle of getting the "exact" stuff that they either use or recommend.

Instead, I cruised down to a well known Winne certified repair establishment here in Lake Havasu City AZ and talked to them. The place is called "3 Ts RV". I've talked with Tina several times on other subjects and, she's always been helpful and informative. So, I asked her what she and or Winne is now using and or recommending for that roof to channel seal/glue.

I was surprised to hear her response. She stated: "100% Silicone" . I asked: That's it, SILICONE???? She said, "Yep" that's all that they use when they do the roof re-seal/caulk. Well, as much as I was a bit perplexed at that answer, I took it for gospel and, headed to our local Lowes for a tube or two. As stated, I removed every bit of the old stuff, as much as possible. Now, one thing here, my glue joint, was no bad, for the full length of the coach. It was only bad, for about the first 3' from the front cap.

So, when all the old stuff was removed, I drenched a clean towel and wiped and wiped that groove with ALCOHOL!! I'd wipe it and get gunk out, get a new section of towel and do it again and again 'till the towel came out clean, after a wipe.

I then, prepped my tube of clear, 100% silicone. I cut the tip off at the smallest possible point. The reason I did that is because, I wanted that tip to force its way down into that joint, by pushing the roof sheeting away from the channel. It worked. That Silicone was going way down into that joint I fingered the joint when done. That left it level with the channel.

So, I applied a top layer, with a tad larger bead. I then ultra-lightly fingered that too so that, it was a "ramp" of Silicone from the roof sheeting to over the edge of the channel. I cleaned up any excess that may have wandered off to make a mess and, that side was done.

I then went over to the passengers side to check on that joint. Well, guess what, it was in the same exact condition, only for a bit farther down the length of the coach. About 4.5' all total. From that point, the original caulking/glue, remains in great shape and, the roof does not separate from the channel when pushed on. This time I used a different razor tool. It's one of those that you push on the thumb button and the whole blade sticks out, like a windshield scraper. That tool worked seriously better. It took me about 1/2 the time to remove all the old stuff on the passengers side.

Again, I prepped the area with a nice dousing of alcohol. Out came the Silicone tube and, again, forcing the tip of it down in between the roof radius and the channel, squirting a narrow, 3/32" bead down in there. I fingered that one off and, again, applied a top bead and, fingered it off.

Man, does that look a thousand times better than what was there. I feel a ton better knowing that I took care of that BEFORE we had an instant sun roof out on a trip some place. All in all, $6.00 for the tube of Silicone and, I already had some alcohol. Another project, although an un-intended one, DONE!

So, like my title states, get up there and check those roof seams. Especially if your Winne or Itasca is climbing in age and or, sees the elements a lot. Ours is as stated, approximately 11.5 years old but, other than when we use it, its' in an RV garage and, has been in covered parking it's whole life.
Scott
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Old 10-07-2015, 04:47 PM   #2
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Some pics of the finished re-seal/glue/caulking
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:12 PM   #3
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Nice looking job you did. I use silicone on all my roof seals for end caps and sides.
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:19 PM   #4
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When i did mine I recaulked then went over that with 2" eternabond in the channel and on to the roof from front to back
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:23 PM   #5
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Nice application. any particular reason why you didn't use eternabond ?
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maj.kangaroo View Post
Nice application. any particular reason why you didn't use eternabond ?
He said this in his write up - I was surprised to hear her response. She stated: "100% Silicone" . I asked: That's it, SILICONE???? She said, "Yep" that's all that they use when they do the roof re-seal/caulk. Well, as much as I was a bit perplexed at that answer, I took it for gospel and, headed to our local Lowes for a tube or two.
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:27 PM   #7
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100% Silicone is the worst thing that you can use on the exterior of an RV, or any outdoors application. It has absolutely no UV resistance, and will fail in short time, (as you have already experienced). Also, anything that it comes into contact with is almost permanently saturated with silicone, so other adhesives or paint will not stick to that surface.

Tina gave you some very seriously flawed information.

Polyurethane is the exterior sealant of choice by professionals, RV, sailboat and yacht owners and RV/Marine manufacturers. Some good brands are Sika, and 3M.
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachDude View Post
100% Silicone is the worst thing that you can use on the exterior of an RV, or any outdoors application. It has absolutely no UV resistance, and will fail in short time, (as you have already experienced). Also, anything that it comes into contact with is almost permanently saturated with silicone, so other adhesives or paint will not stick to that surface.

Tina gave you some very seriously flawed information.

Polyurethane is the exterior sealant of choice by professionals, RV, sailboat and yacht owners and RV/Marine manufacturers. Some good brands are Sika, and 3M.
Perhaps you may be right but have a read on this comparison.

Building Caulking - Silicone vs. Polyurethane Sealant
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:46 PM   #9
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Ahhh, well...

I think I will weigh in with Beach Dude, this subject has been pretty extensively covered on here. On Winnie's sealant call-out sheets, the roof caps and sidewall to roof joints have been a form of modified urethane. Other things such as antennas, vents and skylights have been a silicon product. The modified urethane has greater peel strength, adhesion between fiberglass and metal and "stretch". Things you need for the wall to roof joint. I like 3M4200UV.
Redlands RV recommends using eternabond tape over the roof to end cap joints, I'm going with that next month (YMMV).
But, that said, nice work. There is a Winnie service tip out about putting a long sheet metal screw through the bottom edge of the cap and into the sidewall to help stabilize that area (see your first thumb nail picture).
And all silicons are not created equal. Some have more resistance to UV and some have little to none. And there are as many formulations for silicon as there are manufacturers.
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachDude View Post
100% Silicone is the worst thing that you can use on the exterior of an RV, or any outdoors application. It has absolutely no UV resistance, and will fail in short time, (as you have already experienced). Also, anything that it comes into contact with is almost permanently saturated with silicone, so other adhesives or paint will not stick to that surface.

Tina gave you some very seriously flawed information.

Polyurethane is the exterior sealant of choice by professionals, RV, sailboat and yacht owners and RV/Marine manufacturers. Some good brands are Sika, and 3M.
Well Sir,
I personally wouldn't call 11.5 years A SHORT TIME. Not only that but, also in the write-up it states that, only a about 3' of the driver side has actually pulled away from the channel. And, about 4.5' of the passengers side has. The rest of the joint, on both sides, is still intact and, is holding quite well. Now, I wasn't going to travel to the ends of the earth, make a thousand phone calls, consult with anyone and everyone who'd listen, about what kind of sealer/glue/caulking SHOULD be used in this particular joint.
Yes, I did say I have the callout for all the sealants and caulks ORIGINALLY used on our coach. But, that was over ELEVEN YEARS AGO! I'm going to assume that, in that 11 + years, glues/caulks/sealants have changed, as well as the chemical makeups of all of them.

When you go into Home Depot or, Lowes and look at the sealant/caulking/glue rack, there's only about two dozen different types. I could have stood there for a couple of hours trying to analyze just what would work best for this given situation.

But, I took the word of a person who's father has worked ultra closely with Winnebago for years and, is still close with them and HWH. I figured if anyone would know what would work, and not give me bad information, SHE WOULD. So, I went with what she suggested and, we'll see how it lasts.

I certainly am no chemist. I go with what I thought was authority on this subject. The directions on the tube say it will NEVER SHRINK and, has excellent adhesion and is "Sun-Proof". We'll see.

As for the one who suggested "Eternabond Tape", well, as you can see, that roof, it's radius's and the rest of the coach, is our pride and joy. I keep it waxed (including the roof) on a regular basis. I was not and never will put ANY tape over the edge. I personally think it would look really hoaky.

And, like stated, that roof is over 11 years old and, over 90% of the glue/caulking/sealant along both edges, is still in fine shape. I wanted this caulking/seal/glue replacement to look as good as the factory did. As far as I'm concerned, it's darn close. The factory had color in their original stuff, this is clear.
Scott
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Old 10-09-2015, 04:55 PM   #11
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Oh Scott my man, silicon just won't hold very long. It's plenty stretchy enough, but the adhesion of silicon vs polyurethane is way less.

When my coach was brand new it had about 6" crack on the roof radius about 8 ft back. The dealer did the fiberglass repair and re-paint and re-seal the gutter using silicone... about 2 ft in length. That section seal was loose in 6 months while the rest was still holding strong.

The thing about silicone is that once it's cured, nothing will adhere to it, not even fresh silicone. And it's very difficult to remove to get back to a pristine clean surface for anything to stick.

What I've seen thru the years is that the roof and the sidewall tend to move laterally, trying to sheer the joint. I suppose this happens when the coach gets stressed going thru driveways or speed bumps at an angle.

Anyway, what's done is done and as the saying goes ...it doesn't rain in California.

Take care Buddy,
Bill
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Old 10-09-2015, 05:21 PM   #12
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This is what I've used: Henry 10.1 oz 212 Clear All Purpose Patch

According to the manufacturer this is the US equivalent of the Canadian Stone Mason product specified by Winnebago.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:47 PM   #13
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I just went through this on my rig. Unfortunately I got bad advice from a Winnebago service tech in Forrest City as well as contributors on this forum. Because of it we were unable to take a fall trip we were looking forward to.

During an inspection I discovered the original adhesive material was no longer sticking the to the fiberglass at the roof channel seam for about a 5' section on the driver's side. I pulled out the old stuff which looked and acted like silicone. I called our closest Winnie dealer and the lady in parts said it was silicone and they stocked the proper material. But according to the Winnie website the proper material was a single part urethane called Manus 75 AM, not silicone. I also saw posts on this forum from several people who in all caps said never use silicone on a roof.

Now I was confused. I called the factory and asked the tech if they used silicone back in 2005 to hold the roof on. He said yes. He also told me to forget all the other material recommendations and just use a high quality polyurethane. So I did.

What a disaster that turned out to be. It dried hard as resin, bubbly with voids and gaps with a very rough surface. It took 5 days to clean that out and get it ready for the NuFlex clear silicone that I picked up at our Winnie dealer's parts department for $11. By the time we had the repair done and allowed it to fully cure, we'd lost our reservation for the planned Octoberfest celebration.

Moral of the story, from now on I'll listen to the lady in parts at Roy Robinson RV.
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:24 PM   #14
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I used Manus Bond 75-AM polyurethane sealer on the 2001 Itasca Sunrise 30W I once owned. Found that the roof sides near the front pushed in, so I resealed about 3 years after unit was new. Got the sealer from Lichtsinn RV in Forest City. This was the sealer recommended by Winnebago for the model at that time. .

Never separated again up to trade-in on new motorhome in 2007. Too bad the original windshield sealant didn't hold up to the rusty windshield framework design.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:44 PM   #15
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Some dealers do not despite years of warnings from Winnebago follow their recommendations.

I was at LazyDays in Sefner Florida and had then call Winnebago and talk to the Winnebago Rep to find out what the factory was recommending and it is still the Specific Urathane Caulking published in the sealant call out sheet. I had printed the current sealant call out sheet and brought it with me and the dealer, the Winnebago Rep and the call out sheet all said the same thing.

Silicone does not have the required adhesive properties which the flexible urathane does and will fail in short time on the roof joints. If the roof joint fails completely water will run down the inside of the gutter channel flowing into the front cap area and start rotting out the windshield frames as water drains through them from the top down. Silicone then makes it more difficult to correct this since it leave a slippery film behind that has to be completely cleaned up so the application of the correct flexible urathane adhesive caulk will form a proper bond to both surfaces of the joints which means that after removing all visible traces of the silicone you now have to use a solvent based film remover to clean up any residue/slickness left behind by the silicone.

One note of caution is that the correct Urathane caulking only has a 9 Month Shelf Life from the date of manufacture printed on the tube if stored in a cool location and should be disposed of if past that age since the solvents required for proper application will have evaporated beyond acceptable levels for proper application. Too many dealers unfortunately do not pay attention and sell this caulk afters its past the end of its shelf life.
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Old 10-11-2015, 12:15 AM   #16
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Well Gang,
I most certainly want to thank all of you who've told both good and bad of what I used on the re-seal of my roof to sidewall of our coach. As I stated way earlier, I do have the call out sheet pdf with all the Winne sealants and caulks. My problem is, I'm just not one of those that runs to the manufacturer every time I need to tie my shoes. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, just that, I've done so much for myself over the years in terms of repair/alterations/fabrications/maintenance/changes/ and much more, 99.00% of which is still working flawlessly.

I went to the only known Winnebago repair center here in Havasu and asked what they recommended. Knowing that there are so many sealants/caulks/glues on the local market, I figured they would put me straight on what to use. And, I also calculated the fact that the person I asked would have told me to order up, (if they didn't have any in stock) the correct sealant/glue/caulk from Winnebago or, Lichtsinn RV parts.

But, she (Tina of Three Ts RV in Lake Havasu City AZ) that they only use 100% Silicone. So, you know the rest of the story.

So, in terms of how much I've resealed with that Silicone, in relation to the total amount of joint that is on the top of that coach, I think I've done less than 10% of the total length of joint. So, if that newly resealed joint fails in the next 6 months to whenever, I'll then purchase the CORRECT sealant and, re-do it. I've removed Silicone before and, while it can be a pain, I'll get it all out and, clean enough for any new sealant to stick to. That's what they make chemicals for.

Bill (Duner),
Hey Partner, how's the travels going? The Townies getting a workout? I thank you for your contribution to my issue of resealing a part of my roof to side wall. Apparently this is one of those times I SHOULD have consulted folks on here before making a move on this issue. But, live and learn. Should this re-seal present a problem in a short time span, I'll tackle it in the correct manner, next time. Thanks again Sir. Hope we can meet up again sometime soon. Say hi to Helen for us.
Scott
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Old 10-11-2015, 04:27 AM   #17
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Too many dealers do not recommend what is correct but unfortunately what is easiest or what is more convenient for them to get regardless of whether its good or bad for the intended purpose. One dealer may decide that a compromise one type fits all approach is good enough for them so they don't have to have knowledgeable techs making it so they have one white roof seam caulk for all brands of motor homes that might work well enough that their customers most of the time probably won't notice the difference and when they do it will be far enough down the road that they can just shrug it off to time and unforeseen events, not because they made a substitution.

The correct caulk is the Manus Bond 75-AM Industrial Grade Adhesive/Sealant which has an elongation rating of 275% and a tensile strength of 225 psi and is actually a STP Polyether Adhesive Caulk however it has a limited shelf life of less than a year so you have to be aware and refuse to accept old stock.

A more standard grade Urathane caulk is more stretchy however has a weaker bond at around 180 psi while many consumer grade silicone caulks are only rated at 150 psi or less so it does not form the bond required for the seam to remain stable.

Its more than just use Urathane or Silicone as the expression goes the Devil Is In The Details.

Airstream for example did a quite a bit of development with Tremco to design the Vulcum Adhesive Caulks and pushed the envelope for construction adhesive caulks that were good enough to replace the use of rivets and hard fasteners which over the years have became accepted in the RV, marine, aircraft, automotive and construction industries too. A lot goes into engineering and specifying adhesive caulks for an intended purpose.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:42 PM   #18
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I have been using this and it is not very expensive.

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Old 10-12-2015, 12:50 PM   #19
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I contacted Manus on this and their response is that if anyone sells you their adhesive caulks past the time indicated by the Mfg Date and usable shelf life printed on the tubes that you should return it for fresh material. If it says 9 months past Nov 12, 2014 and someone tries to sell that to you over 9 months later then refuse it. If your not going to use it in a short time then do not buy it until you are ready to use it and do not stockpile it. 9 months can go by very quickly and then you have some fairly expensive painters caulk at best that you might be able to use on things that are nailed down and do not reaquire an adhesive or need to hold up to a steady 65 or so mph blast of wind and rain.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:06 PM   #20
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Neil V- I don't deny that Winnebago calls for Manus 75AM. But the factory applied silicone has held my roof on for 10 years. And, except for a 5' section that separated over the driver door area recently, still does. I saw no reason to tear out 65 linear feet of good silicone still working to put in the Manus. I'll keep a close eye on it and if larger sections start to come loose I'll clean it all out and use the Manus.

In the spirit of full disclosure, my Suncruiser lives in a climate controlled building in the mild Pacific Northwest when not in use. That is only about 45-50 days per year. I suspect that has had a lot to do with the longevity of the silicone.
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