How to: Exceeding Hitch Limit on a 2019 Sunstar 29Ve

[dkoldman]

So my OEM hitch is rated at 5,000#, GCWR = 23,000

However, I have a Lincoln Navigator that has a Flat Tow Mode that weighs 5,800# curb weight.

I want to tow it, just because I own it. My current weight in total is under 17,000 when fully loaded.

Any one do anything similar, and if so; which hitch did you upgrade to? I am assuming the 800# more than specification is critical to warrant replacing the hitch? I am looking at this hitch by Curt as it is confirmed fit for 29VE

https://www.etrailer.com/p-C14082.html

Note: This hitch is rated for 10,000#, but I would NEVER exceed 5,800#

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

So my OEM hitch is rated at 5,000#, GCWR = 23,000

However, I have a Lincoln Navigator that has a Flat Tow Mode that weighs 5,800# curb weight.

I want to tow it, just because I own it. My current weight in total is under 17,000 when fully loaded.

Any one do anything similar, and if so; which hitch did you upgrade to? I am assuming the 800# more than specification is critical to warrant replacing the hitch? I am looking at this hitch by Curt as it is confirmed fit for 29VE

https://www.etrailer.com/p-C14082.html

Note: This hitch is rated for 10,000#, but I would NEVER exceed 5,800#

So it looks like I am on my own here?

I assume no one is towing more than 5,000# with a WBGO RV that from factory had a hitch rated for 5,000#?

[Airboss68]

I think that probably no one on this forum has Changed out the hitch to a higher capacity either because they didn't need it or because the chassis attachment points are the factor limiting your RV to 5000#.

I would probably call Winnebago before changing the hitch to make sure this is not the case.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Airboss68

I think that probably no one on this forum has Changed out the hitch to a higher capacity either because they didn't need it or because the chassis attachment points are the factor limiting your RV to 5000#.

I would probably call Winnebago before changing the hitch to make sure this is not the case.

^This!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Airboss68

I think that probably no one on this forum has Changed out the hitch to a higher capacity either because they didn't need it or because the chassis attachment points are the factor limiting your RV to 5000#.

I would probably call Winnebago before changing the hitch to make sure this is not the case.

I have talked with WBGO, they state some have done, thus my post. But not finding anyone.

The Chassis is with Ford. Other RV Mfg of same chassis (F-53) 8,000# rated hitches seems to be the standard. (Note: they still can't tow more than the GCWR of 23,000# though)

Assuming you are compliant with hitch rating, the true metric is GCWR (23,000# in my case). IMO, I think WBGO uses a 5,000# hitch because for the coach the math works out. If you are fully loaded and with maximum OCCC with total GVWR =18,000#, you cannot legally tow more than 5,000# anyway because the GCWR = 23,000# in my case.

I seek to do this because my GVWR will always be under 17,000#; so I figure I can legally tow 6,000#. (My Lincoln Navigator is 5,800#) so I am doing all of this to not be 800# over current hitch rating.

I was hoping someone may have done to tell me what hitch they may have used? I just ordered one from ETrailer that they say is confirmed fit 29Ve and that they recommend.

[Ray,IN]

You are asking a relatively small group here. Try asking your question on irv2.com Winnebago forum. irv2.com is about 20X larger than winnieowners.your same login will work there too.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

You are asking a relatively small group here. Try asking your question on irv2.com Winnebago forum. irv2.com is about 20X larger than winnieowners.your same login will work there too.

Thanks. Coincidentally, I just got back from my 1st Scale Weight (CAT), fully loaded I am 16,600; so I am I would be well within the 23,000 GCWR with 5,800# Navigator. In fact, I have about 500#s of stuff that if I were to tow the Navigator; I could do with out.

I have a new RV hitch on order as well as base plate for Navigator. If I get those two done, I will proceed with next steps

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Thanks. Coincidentally, I just got back from my 1st Scale Weight (CAT), fully loaded I am 16,600.

Just to be sure you realize... "fully loaded" is full-tank of fuel, full-tank of fresh water, and 1/2 tank of gray and 1/2 tank of black. And all people and pets and loaded fridge, clothing, etc.

We did our last weigh in at a Loves in Santa Rosa, NM right after filling up with gas and on the 2nd day of a 6-week trip with the car hitched and hanging on the back. My total weight was just at 28,040lbs and the GCWR is 30,000lbs.

But I still don't plan on towing an extra 2,000 pounds just because I'm "light."

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Just to be sure you realize... "fully loaded" is full-tank of fuel, full-tank of fresh water, and 1/2 tank of gray and 1/2 tank of black. And all people and pets and loaded fridge, clothing, etc.

We did our last weigh in at a Loves in Santa Rosa, NM right after filling up with gas and on the 2nd day of a 6-week trip with the car hitched and hanging on the back. My total weight was just at 28,040lbs and the GCWR is 30,000lbs.

But I still don't plan on towing an extra 2,000 pounds just because I'm "light."

I actually didn't know fully loaded was only 1/2 gray and 1/2 black; so that plays in our favor. Although we can never get past 1/3 black. But reality is I am thinking about going back after I toss some stuff? I have a lot of stuff in the RV that we never use, it is almost like a storage facility. I think they said I can reweigh within 24 hrs for $3.50?

Keep in mind that we are not looking to have a towed on all our trips. It is for the point of being able to carry our Navigator somewhere if we wanted too. So in a sense, yes I am only doing it because technically I can. The concept of the norm to buy a vehicle that becomes a toad is not us, or what we need. I just woke up one day and learned my Navigator 4X4 Slow climb is flat tow capable. My quest to make it so if I ever needed to take it with us someplace. It may take me months to get there as I piecemeal what is needed. But let's assume we wanted to take a trip up the coast of California, I would never tow my Navigator that far I am not a Toad guy as I have never needed a tow. I am the guy that owns a Navigator that I may wish to have on a few trips. I just did my 1st Cat Scale weigh ever; just to be 100% sure I don't ever go over 23,000 lbs which is my limit.

In future I may change a few things i.e. instead of leaving Dallas with full tank of water, only load 1/3rd. In the past, I may wait to get home to dump tanks, but if I have the towed, I may dump before leaving. For sure some tools, tables, chairs, heaters etc. that we hardly ever use can come out on those trips. I may even remove the 75 lb spare tire. If we have the Navigator we can go where we want.

[Ray,IN]

dk, the RVers rule of thumb is, if you haven't used it in the past year, why haul it around, remove it from the RV.

[powercat_ras]

I had a friend that pulled a GMC SUV that weighed more than 5,000 pounds, probally also in the 5,800 lb range, using the standard hitch receiver on her 2015 Winnebago Sightseer using a 7,500 pound rating Blue Ox tow bar and a Blue Ox Patriot 2 Aux Brake. The folks in Texas that set her up never told her she was violating the Winnebago and Ford specs. She did that for several years without any problems before selling her RV. She did not do it on purpose, but once it happened I chose not to tell her it needed to be addressed. As an engineer, I felt that only 20% over was well within the Ford engineered safety margin.

This is a Ford limitation, it's right in the F53 chassis builder's guide for the chassis types that Winnebago uses. However there is Winnebago engineering involved, too. The Ford chassis does not already have the structural member with hitch receiver at the back of the frame. Winnebago does that engineering. I'd like to think that Winnebago engineered 20% saftey margin into their part too, but I'd guess this might be the weak link in things.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by powercat_ras

I had a friend that pulled a GMC SUV that weighed more than 5,000 pounds, probally also in the 5,800 lb range, using the standard hitch receiver on her 2015 Winnebago Sightseer using a 7,500 pound rating Blue Ox tow bar and a Blue Ox Patriot 2 Aux Brake. The folks in Texas that set her up never told her she was violating the Winnebago and Ford specs. She did that for several years without any problems before selling her RV. She did not do it on purpose, but once it happened I chose not to tell her it needed to be addressed. As an engineer, I felt that only 20% over was well within the Ford engineered safety margin.

This is a Ford limitation, it's right in the F53 chassis builder's guide for the chassis types that Winnebago uses. However there is Winnebago engineering involved, too. The Ford chassis does not already have the structural member with hitch receiver at the back of the frame. Winnebago does that engineering. I'd like to think that Winnebago engineered 20% saftey margin into their part too, but I'd guess this might be the weak link in things.

This is so true. In fact; when I talked with Winnebago, I tried to get them to come clean with how much I could go over the hitch rating and they had no part of it. 5,000# period is all they would say, but they did say they know some people have change out hitches. When you mentioned not telling her to address that was my intent to proactively address. I have a new Curt hitch on order that is rated for 10,000#. I can't possibly see any issue with the Ford frame as long as you are within the true specifications (tolerances) of the GCWR of 23,000lbs.

Today using my reweigh option of the Cat Scale, I took the RV and Navigator in to get the GCW. It came out 23,420lbs I am 420lbs over what I planned the Navigator to be 6,240lbs vs literature specs saying curb of 5,820lbs. Part of that difference is that I filled the Navigator up with gas (about 24 gals), I also added 44 lbs of weight to represent the base plates that I have on order but not installed. I added another 10 lb weight to represent the RVi Brake 3 that I have not ordered yet but intended to use.

The RV on scale was sitting at 17,180 lbs with 18,000lbs GVR ( it is fully loaded as we need, but we did remove some things we never use). Most notable cargo now is...
1. Full tank of gas
2. 1/3 tank of water
3. My wife and I ( we are both normal size)
4. Gray and Black are empty
5. Spare tire under the bed could be removed (80lbs)
6. Ice maker could be removed (26 lbs)

My GCVW is 23,420 and my GCWR = 23,000

Should I give up this project? I am sure I could drain water, cut back on gas and remove spare to get under 23,000 lbs but is it necessary, or is it even worth it? Also, for kicks, How serious is the 420 lbs given supplemental braking?

I have a new hitch on order that I can easily return, but may be stuck with a $485 base plate I purchased from e trailer if I can't go forward?

Also for the Engineering, when I weighed today, the Navigator was not connected via a hitch, it was parked on the trailer scale behind the RV. How does this impact my math? Will weight be worse due to tongue weight when connected, or will it be evenly distributed; so more total weight on the RV and less on the Navigator ( trailer scale)?


Note: Getting another Tow Vehicle (smaller) is not an option. I will either configure this Lincoln Navigator to be towed on my existing RV, or just leave everything as is.

[Ray,IN]

Towing 4-down, the only hitch weight is the weight of the towbar itself.
To put this in perspective; Several years ago my cousin did what you are planning. The difference was he was towing a Chevy Tahoe with a workhorse chassis.
During the time he traveled that way, about 7 years, I can remember him replacing the engine 2X and automatic transmission 3X.
They traveled all over the lower 48 during those 7 years.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

Towing 4-down, the only hitch weight is the weight of the towbar itself.

This is great so no more surprise weights. I put 44lbs in the Navigator to simulate the weight of the base plate and a 10lb weight to simulate the RViBrake 3 that I ordered today.


I do need to confirm the Roadmaster Nighthawk 676 tow bar weight; that I have not bought yet with Roadmaster. I could not find online; which I find odd?


To put this in perspective; Several years ago my cousin did what you are planning. The difference was he was towing a Chevy Tahoe with a workhorse chassis.
During the time he traveled that way, about 7 years, I can remember him replacing the engine 2X and automatic transmission 3X.
They traveled all over the lower 48 during those 7 years.

Replace the engine & transmission in which vehicle? RV or Towed Vehicle. I would love the clarity, I assume the RV? Either of those go in my RV once, I am done. I find it hard to believe that RV a design to haul 23,000 lbs will have issues with couple hundred pounds over suggested GCWR? Remember the 420lb over was me proactively seeing where I might be, I fully intend to be lower. How much I won't really know until I complete the job, plan a weekend trip to see. Reducing gas in both vehicles and water can get me to 22,999lbs if necessary.

The new Navigator was built for flat towing, it shouldn't have any issues. Regardless and just so you know we have no intent of heavy travel. My wife and I still work. I don't need or want a towed in the sense 99.9% of people want toads. We drive our RV every where as if it were a SUV.

This project is only because I already own a Navigator that is Flat Towable, and I wish to have it ready to be towed with my RV in the event I wanted to take it somewhere. Contrary to norm, the further I go on a trip, you can be sure I will not have a towed; Navigator or any type.

One other thing that may help about our RV Lifestyle. 90% of the time at a campsite we don't bother to hookup. I may get water if needed, but very rare. I prefer to dump when we get home using our Jet Flo macerator. If I have a towed that would change because I will no longer travel with full tank of water and almost 1/2 tank of gray. We stay at State Parks with lake mainly. If they charge more for wet or 50 amp service we always get the dry site or 30 amp. It has never been an issue.

[powercat_ras]

If you go onto Winnebago Ind web site you can look at the 3D drawings for the Winnebago RV you are using. On my 2015 Vista 27N Winnebago has a multiple part system that extends the end of the frame rails and then the drawbar and attach between the extensions, with skid plates below the extensions.

The forces exerted on the RV by the vehicle being pulled behind the drawbar are maximum under hard braking or acceleration. You might talk to a frame shop or school auto shop instructor and get their take on what if the risk would be to intentionally exceed the design spec by 20%. You could take some cell phone photos of the underneath the back of the RV and some cell phone screen shot photos of the 3D drawing view of the back of your RV chassis so they would have something to think about.

On my 2015 Vista 27N there are right angles where the drawbar connects to the frame extensions and where the hitch receiver connects to the drawbar that are going to be the likely first points of failure of structure. These might be able to be reinforced with some gussets.

The other reason for the limitation is the acceleration and braking performance, you could add power with a Banks Stage 2 kit, and you can have a good toad brake assist system to address stopping the extra weight safely.

Good luck.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by powercat_ras

If you go onto Winnebago Ind web site you can look at the 3D drawings for the Winnebago RV you are using. On my 2015 Vista 27N Winnebago has a multiple part system that extends the end of the frame rails and then the drawbar and attach between the extensions, with skid plates below the extensions.

The forces exerted on the RV by the vehicle being pulled behind the drawbar are maximum under hard braking or acceleration. You might talk to a frame shop or school auto shop instructor and get their take on what if the risk would be to intentionally exceed the design spec by 20%. You could take some cell phone photos of the underneath the back of the RV and some cell phone screen shot photos of the 3D drawing view of the back of your RV chassis so they would have something to think about.

On my 2015 Vista 27N there are right angles where the drawbar connects to the frame extensions and where the hitch receiver connects to the drawbar that are going to be the likely first points of failure of structure. These might be able to be reinforced with some gussets.

The other reason for the limitation is the acceleration and braking performance, you could add power with a Banks Stage 2 kit, and you can have a good toad brake assist system to address stopping the extra weight safely.

Good luck.

Isn't the engineering already proven? TMC and other RV Mfgs using the same chassis equip 8,000# rated hitches in same place WBGO places their 5,000# rated hitches. See Hurricanes / Windsport with same layout on F53.

Also per e-trailer the trailer hitch I have purchased, (not install yet) is a confirmed fit and has been installed on my make model. WBGO has also confirmed it has been done, but stop short of saying they recommend me doing so directing me to Ford. I wasn't expecting WBGO to say they recommend, but to say if it can be done.

Given I now know it can be, and has been done, I thought I might find someone who has. Ray, IN has already advised me that the audience is smaller here on this forum than on IRV2. Originally I was seeking what hitch to use or if anyone had problems doing this? No need to reinvent the wheel.

No problems have been reported and the hitch I have on order is rated at 10,000#, I only need 6,240#. I am running on Goodyear G670 tires so I think I am doing all I can short some one saying they have done X using Y product. It would be nice to know, but unless someone knows of flaw with Curt hitches that is my plan. I sprayed the penetrating blaster on the bolts today in hopes over next few days they come off easier.

I don't think WBGO want RV owners to have a hitch rated at 8,000# giving the RV owner a false sense of security they can tow 8,000#, they can't. In most case 5,000# is limit short a RV owner is able to reduce payloads which I plan to do to stay at or near GCVW of 23,000. Note the Windsport / Hurricanes can't exceed the GCVW of 23,000 either. I could have bought a 8,000 lb hitch, but the 10,000# was actually less money; people tend to overlook the Industrial Engineering aspect. Sometimes you have to make things work that the Mechanical Engineers didn't consider.

[JLUSoCal]

When I had my 29-foot Itasca Spirit on the E-Superduty Chassis (97 but equivalent to the E-450 Class C) - I had a 3500 lb hitch - I took it to a welder in town that does tow bars, hitches, etc. He added reinforcements to the hitch (L pieces extending back to the original frame that Ford built to re-enforce where Winebago extended the frame. I towed my Jeep Wrangler about 3000 miles over a few years before I traded it for my current 29ve. All that said, I felt confident with the extra metal added to NOT have to upgrade for a few more years. The weak part was the extension - would it have worked with no modification - maybe, but for a few hundred dollars, I had it modified and kept the original hitch, as they said that was not the weak point.

Back in 97 was the first year of the V-10, derated for the van front end of a Class C and two valve. It pulled but was at the top of the GVCR for the chassis when combined - my goal was to stay under that, and I was likely just under.

When doing my research, I felt that Wbgo likely over-engineered, as does Ford but legally they keep a margin, helping to keep legal at bay. That and other manufacturers in those days had 5k hitches but never studied how they extended their frames beyond what Ford shows in their "builder specs."

Agree with most of the above, including looking at how it's been extended - mine was NOT C channel, and the L piece made it C channel extended from the C Channel frame. I just peaked under the motorhome, and we do have a hefty C Channel from the original frame - but then again, this same length 30-footer is much heavier then my Class C by 2 tons on a chassis built to handle it.

With our new to us Vista 29ve, when we were in Oregon a few summers ago, we stopped at a roadside weigh station and were at both the GVWR of the motorhome and GCWR with my 4 door wrangler. No problem moving or stopping, and it was good to know that fully loaded, I was still just at the limits. I always seem to carry stuff I never use - a bad habit that when I full time, I will have to shed some of that for longer trips as I'll need more than I carry for my week-long trips!

[Ray,IN]

Yes the MH required the engine and transmission replacements.

[RPChapman]

There are two factors to take into account. Get the specifications from the chassis manufacturer. I was doing research on my 2005 Winnebago Adventure 38J and according to Winnebago the hitch rating was a standard class 3 5K receiver hitch. When i talk to the service guy at Winnebago, he said check the specs on the chassis, then grinned. I got the factory specifications for a Workhouse W24 chassis and found it was rated for 6k.

You might find the chassis manufacturer has a different rating (probably higher) that the coach manufacturer.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by RPChapman

There are two factors to take into account. Get the specifications from the chassis manufacturer. I was doing research on my 2005 Winnebago Adventure 38J and according to Winnebago the hitch rating was a standard class 3 5K receiver hitch. When i talk to the service guy at Winnebago, he said check the specs on the chassis, then grinned. I got the factory specifications for a Workhouse W24 chassis and found it was rated for 6k.

You might find the chassis manufacturer has a different rating (probably higher) that the coach manufacturer.

That has already been done and one of the 1st things discussed. The issue is the Hitch is rated for 5,000 lbs confirmed and that is WBGO. The OEM Chassis frame by Ford goes higher. I wish to tow 6,240 lbs so I am working to beef up my hitch.