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Old 07-12-2018, 03:30 PM   #1
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Lightbulb Waterless refrigerant

Hi guys over fifty! I was joking ...

As many of us know, our older RVs on steep climbs - especially in summer - tend to overheat.

Today I have an idea that could mitigate if not solve the problem, provided the radiator is clean and tidy. Have any of you ever tried to use "waterless refrigerant" instead of ordinary refrigerants?

The waterless refrigerant virtually eliminates overheating in petrol and diesel engines. It allows the motors to withstand higher temperatures without boiling and allows the cooling system to run at a very low or almost zero pressure. Thanks to the absence of water in the system, the engines with this liquid are free of electrolysis phenomena and work perfectly regardless of the type of driving and environmental conditions.

Cooling systems using this technology make use of non-water-based refrigerant with a high boiling point (over 180 C), keeping the refrigerant temperature considerably below the usual level. In contrast, traditional water-based cooling systems operate near the boiling point of the refrigerant. In traditional systems, the locally produced coolant vapor does not return to the liquid state, but forms an insulating barrier between the metal of the cooling sleeve and the coolant, causing heat points to form.

The water-free refrigerant also eliminates cavitation and erosion of the coating and freezes at temperatures below -40 C.

The only downside seems to be the cost, around $ 160 per 10 liters.

They are refrigerants that are usually used on high performance sports car engines.

Anyone have experiences about it?

Can our buses engines benefit from this product?

I think - with what they cost - it's worth spending more.

Keep in mind that these refrigerants are designed to last for a very very long time, so much that they are also considered "definitive liquids": put it once in the vehicle's life and that's it.

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Old 07-24-2018, 06:10 PM   #2
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I see little benefit to this. I believe Evans is the only manufacturer.
It reduces corrosion considerably except with solder used in many radiators in which case it accelerates deterioration. But the main problem is thermal heat conductivity. It is much worse than straight water or 50/50 water/conventional antifreeze. Head temps will be significantly higher which is not a good thing. Water is the best conductor of heat. The more you reduce water, the harder it is to get rid of heat.

The other issue is its effects with aluminum. Seems it creates deposits on aluminum blocks and heads.

Read this test article for more info. It was done by the makers of Norosion additive. Not sure how effective Norosion is in prevention corrosion but their tests on cooling are in line with what others have found.
No-Rosion Products Technical Questions and Answers
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:57 AM   #3
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Thank you for your contribution, many interesting considerations have been made in this forum, where some technicians Evans and Caterpillar have also answered:

Waterless refrigerant... - iRV2 Forums
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:43 AM   #4
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Thank you for your contribution, many interesting considerations have been made in this forum, where some technicians Evans and Caterpillar have also answered:

Waterless refrigerant... - iRV2 Forums
That thread seems to have the same concerns as I do. Nothing cools an engine better than water. The issue is the boiling point of water. So we mix it with some form of antifreeze. Doing so raises the boiling point but reduces the thermal heat transfer capabilities. Thats why its typical to not exceed a 50/50 ratio. Evans uses a pure 100% glycol solution. That raises the boiling point considerably at the further expense of heat transfer. Boiling over is prevented but not over heating.

With diesels I'd worry about higher exhaust temps due to higher head temps.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:00 PM   #5
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If this product was everything the mfgr. claimed, I'd think all commercial bus and HDT mfgrs. would already be using the product.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:42 PM   #6
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Thought i responded to this already.. This is nothing but pure Glycol. We use it in high power transmitters, but A) its expensive, and B) it leaks from EVERYWHERE. It takes GREAT care to install these cooling systems that don't leak. I doubt a typical slide hose and compression clamp will contain it. There are two kinds, one pink and one green. I can remember the details on each as we moved away from this for a generation of transmitters, and now coming back to it in the new generation. O boy.. :(
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:36 PM   #7
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Depending on your climate and where you intend on driving I have used a mixture of about 75 water And 25 percent antifreeze. You want the freeze point about zero so if it does get cold it will not freeze. I have used this in various street rods over the years and really works great. You can also no rosion and straight water but I do not recommend that Beavis of the temp drops it will freeze. It is high on race cars that are kept warm. Motordoctor
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:48 PM   #8
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It is very expensive and a lot of work to clean and evacuate all the water from the system in order for water-less coolant to work so much so that some recommend replacing the water pump, hoses, radiator, heater core and of course all clamps as part of the process.


A better alternative to me is just to add Water Wetter or Lucas Super Coolant additives to your standard mix and to flush the system with a mix of Distilled Water with White Vinegar rinsing it out with Distilled Water every two years as per the owners manual.



I have used the Lucas Super Coolant Additive in a Gasoline to Diesel Conversion that would overheat if you traveled at speeds over 60 mph where a bigger radiator to match the needs of the Diesel Engine was not possible and it brought the temps down into the acceptable range at highway speeds and in stop and go traffic the electric fan cycles less often and for shorter duration's.


Water Wetter: https://www.redlineoil.com/waterwetter


Lucas Super Coolant: https://lucasoil.com/products/proble.../super-coolant


A bit more expensive however even better is Engine Ice which I have used on my motorcycle with miraculous results here in the area surrounding Tropical Tampa Bay Florida. Again you need to flush with a mix of Distilled Water with White Vinegar rinsing it out with Distilled Water every two years as per the owners manual. I really like the Engine Ice since it is Non-Toxic and does not present the environmental issues associated with most coolants along with works very, very well.



Engine Ice: https://engineice.com/


None of these options are going to work as intended if your cooling system is not clean and the thermostat in good condition. Many might be shocked to see what can happen to the water pump impeller over time when you skip flushing the cooling system every two years as the impeller can just about completely rot away so that it pumps very little water.
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by onholdguy View Post
Depending on your climate and where you intend on driving I have used a mixture of about 75 water And 25 percent antifreeze. You want the freeze point about zero so if it does get cold it will not freeze. I have used this in various street rods over the years and really works great. You can also no rosion and straight water but I do not recommend that Beavis of the temp drops it will freeze. It is high on race cars that are kept warm. Motordoctor
While you can get the freeze point where you want keep in mind that the less water you use the less heat transfer the coolant has. Head temps will climb which is not a good thing.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F702119 View Post
Hi guys over fifty! I was joking ...

As many of us know, our older RVs on steep climbs - especially in summer - tend to overheat.

Today I have an idea that could mitigate if not solve the problem, provided the radiator is clean and tidy. Have any of you ever tried to use "waterless refrigerant" instead of ordinary refrigerants?

The waterless refrigerant virtually eliminates overheating in petrol and diesel engines. It allows the motors to withstand higher temperatures without boiling and allows the cooling system to run at a very low or almost zero pressure. Thanks to the absence of water in the system, the engines with this liquid are free of electrolysis phenomena and work perfectly regardless of the type of driving and environmental conditions.

Cooling systems using this technology make use of non-water-based refrigerant with a high boiling point (over 180 C), keeping the refrigerant temperature considerably below the usual level. In contrast, traditional water-based cooling systems operate near the boiling point of the refrigerant. In traditional systems, the locally produced coolant vapor does not return to the liquid state, but forms an insulating barrier between the metal of the cooling sleeve and the coolant, causing heat points to form.

The water-free refrigerant also eliminates cavitation and erosion of the coating and freezes at temperatures below -40 C.

The only downside seems to be the cost, around $ 160 per 10 liters.

They are refrigerants that are usually used on high performance sports car engines.

Anyone have experiences about it?

Can our buses engines benefit from this product?

I think - with what they cost - it's worth spending more.

Keep in mind that these refrigerants are designed to last for a very very long time, so much that they are also considered "definitive liquids": put it once in the vehicle's life and that's it.


Waterless antifreeze? "Refrigerant" goes in my A/C or refrigerator. Please give us the name of the product you are talking about. Thanks.
Rick
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:56 AM   #11
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Waterless antifreeze? "Refrigerant" goes in my A/C or refrigerator. Please give us the name of the product you are talking about. Thanks.
Rick

Evans Waterless Coolant. It's a type of Glycol based antifreeze that is used 100%, not mixed with water.

It's boil point is over 375F, far above conventional 50/50 mixed coolants boiling point of 250F at 15PSI. The issue is that Glycol doesn't transfer heat as well as water. Engine temps will rise but the coolant won't boil over. I'd rather have a cooler engine with a proper radiator that doesn't allow a 50/50 mix to boil.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:00 PM   #12
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Well to move away from the Waterless Coolant question and on to the problem.....
When I had, years ago prior to a Side Radiator, this era of coach, rear radiator, climbing out of Vegas up to Colorado always the same issue, engine temp just keeps rising. I was told by my Truck place, the Allison/CAT system keeps the RPM low, chugging up the hill and the fan doesn't spin fast enough.
I was told to manually shift it down to get the RPMs up.
Also, I started having the system flushed in the spring, using mostly water with a bit of Glycol in the heat of the year, keeping the RPMs up! Then dump half of it out in the fall and add glycol for the winter. That solved it for me.
With a side radiator you don't have to worry for the separately driven fan it temp controlled .
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Old 07-30-2018, 12:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
Waterless antifreeze? "Refrigerant" goes in my A/C or refrigerator. Please give us the name of the product you are talking about. Thanks.
Rick
"Waterless" is actually a misnomer; it does contain some water, as do all liquids.

Preparations for use are tedious and expensive: https://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm
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Old 07-30-2018, 10:34 PM   #14
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You can buy a gallon at Summit for $40 and the cleanser to flush system is $40. Works great.
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