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Old 05-17-2008, 03:55 AM   #21
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Some models of Winnebago have the bath room sink draining into the black tank. Mine does, we use this sink a lot. So I can see why Winnebago keeps the tanks about the same size.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:09 AM   #22
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Some models of Winnebago have the bath room sink draining into the black tank. Mine does, we use this sink a lot. So I can see why Winnebago keeps the tanks about the same size. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know I knew this but didn't think of this when stating my case for useing the extra valve to increase grey water capacity. Imagine- a sink hooked up to the same waste tank as the toilet - by the manufacturer no less. I rest my case.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:20 AM   #23
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Steve, when you said that the gray water smells as bad as the black water, I have to disagree.

I've smelled my hose (ok, not a pleasant thought) right after dumping the black tank (this was because I thought a connection wasn't secure) and it smelled bad, of course.

But when rinsing the hose with the gray water (mostly soapy) the hose hardly smells at all.

I guess that's why I don't want black water entering my gray tank because I want to be sure my hose is rinsed with all that soapy water before I store it.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:54 PM   #24
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Trust me, if you leave the water in your grey water tank long enough, especially in the warm summer months, it gets a very strong odor, worse in my opinion than the black water. We have smelled others rv waste water when they opened the drain valve on the grey water tank just a tad while camping to get by without going to dump on an extended stay, it was not a pretty smell!
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:54 PM   #25
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*laughs* I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yeah, I know the gray water can get smelly but not as nearly as bad as the black water, "in my opinion" ...but perhaps my "you know what" stinks more than yours.

Like I say, if I smell my hose after dumping the black tank, it smells awful. If I rinse it while dumping the gray water, it comes out smelling like , well, soapy water to me. The hose has a fairly tolerable smell.

However, would you want to store your hose after you just dumped your black tank? Not me.
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:24 PM   #26
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Does anyone have a photo of their third valve setup?
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:40 PM   #27
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Ok, I'm interested too.

If I can be assured that no black water will enter my gray tank, I might consider the third valve set-up too.

Is it just a matter of using a twist-on knife valve that you can buy at Campingworld for about $20?



You twist it on to the end of the "Y" outlet?

1. Leave this third valve closed.

2. Open gray knife valve

3. Open black knife valve

4. You'll hear the water shuttling

5. When water shuttling stops, close the black valve

6. Close the gray valve.

I don't know. It sure seems to me that as soon as the tanks equalize, the gray and black water will start to mix.

I know that Steve (Easyrider) says that it doesn't matter but like I've been saying, I'd rather not have them mix.

If they do mix at some point. I'd rather spend the $80 for the pump.
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:21 PM   #28
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rocco, thanks for the photo and information. I think I will give it a try before trying the pump.
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:43 AM   #29
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I just thought of something.

If this process is just being done periodically and for only about 30 seconds (and if no black water is in fact being transferred), why do we even need a knife valve?

Why just not "cap" the outlet and perform the procedure?

My Winnebago came stock with a tethered cap on the end of the "Y" outlet. Why not just cap it for the 30 second procedure? After the process is over and both black and gray valves closed, just put a bucket under the outlet and take the cap off to clear the gray water that is trapped between the two valves and be on your merry way.

Will this work? If no black water is involved in the transfer, even if the cap leaked a bit during the procedrue, who cares?
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:59 AM   #30
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why just not "cap" the outlet and perform the procedure? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The bucket method would work, but you may get more than you bargained for. Some "product" from the black tank may find it's way to your bucket.

I don't think this is an exact science.
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:25 AM   #31
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Thanks, Dirk. Yep, this not being an exact science is what I'm gathering and therefore tending to lean toward using a pump instead of a third valve.

But yeah, with the knife valve, you'd still have that same liquid trapped between the black and gray valves.

So the purpose of using the knife valve would be to keep the trapped liquid there until it's time to dump?

Again, this whole procedure seemingly is accomplishing the "equalization" of the tanks and in the end when both tanks are relatively close in their volume, the contents of both tanks will start to mix.

This is what I don't want because, again, I want to flush my hose with gray water. If the contents of both tanks are a mixture of gray and black water, then there's nothing to rinse the hose with because both tanks will contain "bits" of black water.

I guess that's why I'd prefer the pump-method even though it costs a bit more.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:17 AM   #32
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So the purpose of using the knife valve would be to keep the trapped liquid there until it's time to dump? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. It's to keep from getting a surprise when removing the sewer cap.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:25 AM   #33
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Yeah, don't want that kind of surprise!

Hmmmm, I guess just capping it won't work then UNLESS we're absolutely sure that the contents of the two tanks aren't mixing but as you say, this is not an exact science and I can visually picture that the two tanks' contents WILL be mixing.

Guess the pump scenario makes the most sense in my case.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:03 PM   #34
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WIth out explaining why I know this, I would add rule 7 to 'rocco's rules: 7) before opeing any of the three valves, connect your waste drainage hose so that you are in the prepared to dump mode.

For me it's a Murphy's Law thing: what can go wrong will go wrong. But on a more postive outlook, the Boy Scott motto: Be prepared! However you look at it, bad stuff can happen around the black tank and some of it might go in your shoe
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:05 PM   #35
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I see that rule #7 is to prevent the "surprise".
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:40 PM   #36
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I can't guarantee that no black water travels back to the grey water tank, but I can say that from observing my waste water as it exits the tank when dumping through a clear plastic fitting on my dump valve that the water is much "cleaner" looking with the word "cleaner" being relative to what we are talking about than the water from the black water tank. I can't believe I just said I look at my waste water while dumping! The nice thing about the extra valve is it allows me to "flush" the black water tank by dumping the black water first, then letting the grey water flow over to the black water tank and then repeating the black water dump. I continue to do this about 4 times if I have enough grey water stored so all my grey water actually flushes out the black water tank first before being allowed to go down the dump hose. By the 4th such action the water comes out of the black water tank looking "clean".
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:30 PM   #37
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One thing that I just thought of using the pump method pumping back thru the black tank flush system. I believe that there is a fitting on the flush hose where it enters the tank to spray the water in a pattern to better flush the tank. Isn't there a possibility that some food waste or something similar could pass thru the pump and possibly plug up this fitting? It would be a problem waiting to happen unless you put a filter on the input to the pump which would, in itself, be problematic.

What do you think?
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:05 PM   #38
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Gravity transfer: Thinking more on the gravity transfer solution.

I tried to originally insert a chart but it didn't work. So:
If blk tank = 10 gal & gray tank = 20 gal then blk tank = 15 & gray tank = 15; am't xfer = 5
If blk tank = 15 gal & gray tank = 35 gal then blk tank = 25 & gray tank = 25; am't xfer = 10
If blk tank = 15 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 27.5 & gray tank = 27.5; am't xfer = 12.5
If blk tank = 20 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 30 & gray tank = 30; am't xfer = 10
If blk tank = 25 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 32.5 & gray tank = 32.5; am't xfer = 7.5
If blk tank = 30 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 35 & gray tank = 35; am't xfer = 5

The above chart is just an arbitrary illustration of what I think might be typical tank levels when transfer is desirable. You may want to plug in numbers that represent your own usage.

Not to put too fine a point on this gray tank transfer, but no doubt the gravity transfer is the simplest and least expensive system. However, unless I have not thought of something, it appears that the pump will be able to transfer more volume. So I think the decision may revolve around how much is enough?
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:39 PM   #39
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Steve, if you can please explain your chart, I don't understand it. Both of my holding tanks are 45 gallons if I remember correctly. That said, what really mattered to me was that on average when my grey tank was full my black tank was usually only 1/4 full, sometimes even less. I thought it sure would be nice if I could use that leftover space in the black tank to hold some grey water and postpone having to dump for maybe another day or two. I found the valve and voila, I had a solution. With the extra valve on, I can use all of my waste water holding capacity before having to dump. I don't think gravity feed or pump feed changes anything, all that matters is how much room you have left in your black water tank when the grey water tank is full. Does that make sense? I'm guessing that on average we probably had around 35 gallons if not more of unused tank space in the black tank when we had to dump because our grey water tank was full before we got the extra valve.
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:46 PM   #40
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Steve, thanks for questioning my chart. I was initially using just random fillings but now I realize that I should have continued the transfer example until the black tank was virtually full.

What I am assuming with the gravity feed system is that my two 45 gallon tanks will only equalize. So, for example:
"If blk tank = 15 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 27.5 gal & gray tank = 27.5; am't xfer = 12.5 gal."

This says that if the black tank has 15 gallons and the gray tank has 40 gallons and you transfer the gray water into the black tank by using the gravity feed valve then both tanks will have 27.5 gallons and the amount of affluent transferred is 12.5 gallons.

Then the next transfer would be: "If blk tank = 27.5 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 36.875 gal & gray tank = 36.875 gal; am't xfer = 6.5 gal."

Then the next transfer would be: "If blk tank = 36.875 gal & gray tank = 40 gal then blk tank = 38.44 & gray tank = 38.44; am't xfer = 1.56 gal."

Then the next transfer would be: "If blk tank = 36.875 gal & gray tank = 45 gal (full) then blk tank = 41.72 & gray tank = 41.72; am't xfer = 3.28 gal."

In this example a total of 22.125 gallons can be transferred from the gray tank to the black tank. After this it does not seem practical. This total transfer amount also assumes, impractically, and for illustration, that the black tank will not increase.

Since I have not actually done this, does my reasoning track with your experience?

Edited on WED AM: After I wrote my reply last night to Steve it was late (That's my excuse and I'am sticking to it) and I was about to fall asleep when it clicked that however the black tank is filled it is filled. So fill it by gravity transfer or fill it by pump transfer the result is more or less the same: gray water is being moved to the black tank. True, the pump will better prevent black tank affluent from intermingling with the gray tank stuff until it hits the sewer. But I am thinking (no experience yet) that quick valving will somewhat control black flow from the black tank. Kind of sounds like what I use to tell my kids when their peas would mix with the corn, "It don't matter son, it all winds up in the same place." Hopefully, for me, the tank is now full on this subject.
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