Dry Camping Battery power

[jcurtisis]

Does anyone know how long one could expect the View/Navion house batteries to last powering the refrigerator when dry camping? We intend to pack the freezer with cold packs and get all the refrigerator things nice and cold before we leave, but we will be dry camping 3 nights and wasn’t sure what to expect related to running the refrigerator all night. During the day & evenings we can charge up the batteries on the generator and the solar panels should also help, but what about running it over night?

[Winterbagoal]

We use the battery monitor panel and solar charge controller to decide what to do overnight. We run the Norcold DC0061 all day at normal temp settings. When the sun goes down, if the (factory) batteries look weak (low/no sun, didn't drive much/at all, didn't run generator, etc.) we might turn it off overnight and let the freezer packs keep things cool. They usually maintain safe cooling temps overnight. Then switch it on when the sun comes up next morning. We've got 300W up top (I added a 3rd panel last year) that usually keeps the batteries ahead of the fridge during the day. Am looking into adding lithium batteries which should mitigate this situation.

[al1florida]

I have read several reports that state, "with the stock batteries charged to full or close to full, running the fridge overnight will bring your batteries down to 50%-60% full by morning, when you really need to get them charged". Of course if you run the lights/TV etc a lot in evening or need to run the furnace at night then you would have even less battery left in the morning.

I believe Winnebago only designed this setup for just an overnight stop and either driving or hooking to shore power then next morning. Not for multi days of dry camping.

[luvlabs]

As long as you can charge the batteries each day, solar and/or generator, you can go indefinitely. You might want to upgrade your batteries to something a little more tolerant to deep cycling and more capacity - 6V golf cart batteries being the most bang for the buck.

[SLOweather]

The best advice I can offer is to get a good quality battery monitor and use it to check your use regularly. Something like a Victron that measured amp hours in and out of the battery along with vlots, amps, and even % capacity.



Your battery bank is a consumable, just like water,wastewater, propane or gasoline, and you should be checking its levels just like the others. A simple voltage based bar graph isn't good enough.

[powercat_ras]

To OP: You did not sign what year your RV is. All the responses above assumed it's a new one without ability to operate on propane.

If an older unit, then your refrigerator/freezer is likely 2 way ( 120 VAC or LP ) then if you are careful to switch off all 12 volt loads you can in your RV, then your 12 volt system can go at least 1 week and use at most 50% of your battery capacity. Of course you need to make sure you don't run out of propane, too.

If your refrigerator is one of the new ones that is 12 volt only, then the other posts in this thread apply.

[jcurtisis]

Thanks Randy. Ours is a newer 2018 Navion.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by jcurtisis

Thanks Randy. Ours is a newer 2018 Navion.

The clues for me were no mention of "propane" while camping off grid, meaning no optional power source for fridge besides batteries (or generator, if you use it). Also, mentioning solar panel(s) plural, that became standard in 2018, when Winnebago upped the 1 X 100W panel, to 2 X 100W panel(s).

I guessed at least a 2018 model.

[NYBobbo]

Originally Posted by jcurtisis

During the day & evenings we can charge up the batteries on the generator and the solar panels should also help, but what about running it over night?

I have replace the stock batteries with AGM, no maintenance and charge with solar and when needed with my diesel gen. Obviously I use my gen anytime to use the microwave/oven which also adds to the time recharging the batteries.



I do not have a condenser fridge but I do use a CPAP that uses quite a bit of power and a sat tuner for my TV. I'm not sure what OEM batteries you have but more than likely you will upgrade withing a few years as they start to degrade.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by NYBobbo

I have replace the stock batteries with AGM, no maintenance and charge with solar and when needed with my diesel gen. Obviously I use my gen anytime to use the microwave/oven which also adds to the time recharging the batteries.



I do not have a condenser fridge but I do use a CPAP that uses quite a bit of power and a sat tuner for my TV. I'm not sure what OEM batteries you have but more than likely you will upgrade withing a few years as they start to degrade.

Do you have to use the heating function on your CPAP machine when in the RV? Just a basic non-heating/non-moisturizing CPAP machine uses very little power.

Both the wife and myself each use only a basic CPAP machine when in our RV, and both machines together use only a small amout of battery power each night. It's the heating function of CPAP machines that really sucks battery power, and this function can be shut off when necessary on many, if not all, CPAP machines.

[Kayak73]

Interesting, just back from a boondock trip and I was going to post a thread on the battery/refrigerator saga in the '18V24D. Refresh the stats, I installed two T-1275 batteries for 300AH power, the refrigerator has been replaced, works OK, noisy, draws about twice the stated load and runs continuously on/off cycle all 24 hours of the day. At night I turn it down. I have a Trimetric I have been too lazy to install (hip problem really could not get around to do it yet). OK, off to Cades Cove for 7 nights dry camp. Great. First two night I ran the CPAP (new, small, very efficient machine). third night I noticed we were loosing the battery draw war. I was getting good solar through the trees, remarkable really and running the generator two hours AM and three hours PM. Still going downhill. No more CPAP use. Everything off. Turned refrigerator down a bit more - still cycles the same, nothing stops it. Morning of the fifth day the generator barely started. Battery going down. Ran genny most of the day. Day 5 and day 6 was cloudy and rainy. Had to start the engine to kick off the generator on the morning of day 7. OK, left next AM to Indian Boundary in Cherokee NF with power. To show the great batteries were really hammered the converter ran at 14.7 volts all day and into the next AM, dropped to 14.4 for the next two days and finally dropped to 13.6, then 13.2 when the batteries were actually good and in maintenance mode. Bottom line, this refrigerator with stock batteries would not work overnight, my batteries are a safety net at 300AH. Solar is impeded frequently by trees and rain and clouds but great when you get it - not to be considered a dependable power source. Charging batteries with the generator and a converter is dumb if you plan on a boondock. The final bottom line is forget the View if you want to boondock or plan to add a chunk of cash for installation of a real refrigerator. OEM design is terrible for the refrigerator. As noted I could have and have done 4 nights easily with this thing after adding the monster batteries. Back to the drawing board - change refrigerator or move to LiON batteries because they can be charged faster. When that salesman makes a video saying this thing works from the factory remember he is selling and his lips are moving. Reality is an owners first hand report. It just is not made for dry camp, the refrigerator is a nightmare from a demon. Everything else about the View is great, it just needs a real refrigerator.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Kayak73

Interesting, just back from a boondock trip and I was going to post a thread on the battery/refrigerator saga in the '18V24D. Refresh the stats, I installed two T-1275 batteries for 300AH power, the refrigerator has been replaced, works OK, noisy, draws about twice the stated load and runs continuously on/off cycle all 24 hours of the day. At night I turn it down. I have a Trimetric I have been too lazy to install (hip problem really could not get around to do it yet). OK, off to Cades Cove for 7 nights dry camp. Great. First two night I ran the CPAP (new, small, very efficient machine). third night I noticed we were loosing the battery draw war. I was getting good solar through the trees, remarkable really and running the generator two hours AM and three hours PM. Still going downhill. No more CPAP use. Everything off. Turned refrigerator down a bit more - still cycles the same, nothing stops it. Morning of the fifth day the generator barely started. Battery going down. Ran genny most of the day. Day 5 and day 6 was cloudy and rainy. Had to start the engine to kick off the generator on the morning of day 7. OK, left next AM to Indian Boundary in Cherokee NF with power. To show the great batteries were really hammered the converter ran at 14.7 volts all day and into the next AM, dropped to 14.4 for the next two days and finally dropped to 13.6, then 13.2 when the batteries were actually good and in maintenance mode. Bottom line, this refrigerator with stock batteries would not work overnight, my batteries are a safety net at 300AH. Solar is impeded frequently by trees and rain and clouds but great when you get it - not to be considered a dependable power source. Charging batteries with the generator and a converter is dumb if you plan on a boondock. The final bottom line is forget the View if you want to boondock or plan to add a chunk of cash for installation of a real refrigerator. OEM design is terrible for the refrigerator. As noted I could have and have done 4 nights easily with this thing after adding the monster batteries. Back to the drawing board - change refrigerator or move to LiON batteries because they can be charged faster. When that salesman makes a video saying this thing works from the factory remember he is selling and his lips are moving. Reality is an owners first hand report. It just is not made for dry camp, the refrigerator is a nightmare from a demon. Everything else about the View is great, it just needs a real refrigerator.

This reply is not to dispute your assessment of the power consumption of the fridge and/or any other power draw in your View.
Before you go on another trip, you really, really need to get that Trimetric installed. Even if you need to pay a mobile RV repair person to come install it.
Your experience is a classic example of not truly knowing how many amp hours (AH) you have taken out of your battery and put back in.
From your description it appears that you probably took your batteries down to a 5%-10% SOC (almost totally empty). Not being able to start the generator, or very slow cranking is a good indicator of almost no charge being left in the battery. Additionally it sounds like your batteries may have remained well below 50% for more more than just a few hours. All this significantly affects the life of the batteries.
With a good battery monitor, like the Trimetric, you will know when you are at or below 50% and you will take significant steps to charge the batteries or reduce the discharge. You will also know that the batteries were not charged nearly as much as you thought by just running the generator for a few hours.
You also may learn that the charger (converter?) that came with the View is not up to the job of quickly charging the batteries. This would lead to the installation of a better charger, if need be.
Another thing to consider. The charger (converter?) that came with the View probably was designed to provide charging current much less than you need to efficiently charge the 300AH of battery you now have.
Even if you go to Lithium you will need to have a charger which will provide the charging capacity you need.
It is also entirely possible you have some phantom load in the View which pulls a steady 5-8 amps of battery that when added to the fridge can have a large impact. Just a constant 5 amp draw costs over 100AH in a day (i.e. 24 hours). Since a 300AH battery pack only has a usable battery capacity of 150AH this 5 amp draw (if it is there) only leave you with about 50AH for the fridge and every thing else. Even if there is a phantom draw of 3 amps that still has a large impact when dry camping multiple days. A 3 amp draw is still 70AH a day.
Also an inverter, just being left on but not providing 120V to devices still pulls a constant 1-3 amps depending on the size of the inverter. Not to beat a dead horse, but this is easily seen when a good battery monitor is installed. Just tuning on and off things connected to the battery quickly show the power drain with the monitor.

[Kayak73]

Al,


Don't worry, the trail horse is dead and I sold the show horses 20 years ago


Yes, you are right almost. When we installed the T-1275s my son and I used his test equipment and shunt to accurately measure every thing in the View (draw on the house batts). I am totally aware of the draws. I have put a power switch on the stereo by the door to shut it off and keep it out of standby etc and on and on. I leave the LP switch off unless needed (shower etc) leave the Truma off totally unless needed. Overall I have a great number sheet on the draw but you are right, I need to get that Trimetric installed. I was down to 50% on the 5th morning at 12.1 volts (per the spec sheet of my T-1275). And ... I have no misconceptions about the converter charging those batteries. After a 10 hour charge nope. It takes a very long time as noted for the PD9245 to get those things back to maintenance level. My whole post was to inform the OP that the 24D View is not designed as shipped for boondock. That's just a fact. If you own one you have to find the best way to live with it or dump it and loose some more cash. Installing a PD9260 is planned. The original PD9245 died in first few months of ownership when the OEM group 24 joke batteries went bellyup. WGO chose to replace in kind which is their warranty obligation and they did. If there was a simple way to move to a 3 way refrigerator I would spend the cash but even with my son and I doing everything except the body work it would be a nightmare and very costly. To repeat myself clearly - IFF you plan to dry camp the 12volt compressor is a bad move, a few other vendors like Tiffin still install the LP fridge. Other that dealing with that issue the View is great. I'm still looking at the drop in lithium as an option but at the cost point I'm waiting for more feedback from others who have done a real "drop-in" to see what impact the stock alternator and charging systems really have on those product. The key to dry camp in this thing is massive AH storage and faster recharge ability, all of which lithium can supply at cost, high cost. I pushed the batteries this time, I doubt seriously that I hurt them, these are not the OEM group 24 batteries WGO installs and they are built to take it although I did not appreciate taking them below 50%, that really is not good for them. The whole point is to illustrate how poorly the View is as shipped from the factory for dry camping and that the video from a well know dealer is complete garbage or he has a different DE0061 than my View (I'm on the second refrigerator now, replaced under warranty - at least this one actually works). The problem with dry camp is the longer the stay the more you get behind on the power curve and unless you run the generator 24x7 you can NEVER support this refrigerator without killing the batteries for more than four days - even with extreme conservative power use and 300AH Trojans in full charge at the beginning of the dry camp. Most places prohibit running the generator after 8PM and before 8AM or have stringent rules. So - it just does not work. This is my point, not the fact that I don't realize the Trimetric is helpful, it is; but even if installed you will need to leave dry camp and go plug in a few days to get charge back up, park in the sun in 85F weather or finally, don't get a View with a compressor refrigerator unless you want to spend a ton of cash to convert to lithium. My estimate from a well know installer of lithium solutions is around $5000 to convert the View. His opinion was poor on the drop-in solutions and required mods to provide different charge options. NONE of this is an issue if you travel between plug in camps.

[NYBobbo]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Do you have to use the heating function on your CPAP machine when in the RV? Just a basic non-heating/non-moisturizing CPAP machine uses very little power.

Both the wife and myself each use only a basic CPAP machine when in our RV, and both machines together use only a small amout of battery power each night. It's the heating function of CPAP machines that really sucks battery power, and this function can be shut off when necessary on many, if not all, CPAP machines.

I appreciate your input, but I like to have to availability to use all of the functions on my CPAP. With upgraded batteries I can do that and not worry about using my SAT tv or any other 12v items I have.


I purchased an RV for the comfort, or I would have stayed in a tent.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by NYBobbo

I appreciate your input, but I like to have to availability to use all of the functions on my CPAP. With upgraded batteries I can do that and not worry about using my SAT tv or any other 12v items I have.

I purchased an RV for the comfort, or I would have stayed in a tent.

I agree completely on your immediate sentence above ... and why we have both the built-in generator and carry along a portable generator in our RV ... so as to have both a Plan A and a Plan B for ensuring our RV's electrical power when camping off the grid.

In addition, a Plan C for electrical power when camping off the grid is short or long idling runs of our Ford V10 engine, if ever needed. Idling the main engine also can completely heat or cool the entire coach interior too, if ever needed due to failure of the coach systems. We do not have solar in the RV because of it's 24/7/365 unreliability.

Just as a side note, both the DW and myself have always used our CPAP machines in their minimum no-heat, no-vaporization, mode ... even when we're using them at home.

Our MH battery bank consists of 230 amp hours of AGM capacity.

[Kayak73]

The humidity needed depends on a lot of things, pressure setting (mine is high) and dry mouth/throat etc. Normally I won't sleep in the CPAP without a setting of 3 to 5 on the 1-8 scale for humidity. The amps used is much higher toward the higher setting but most of the time I can make it on "3" in the RV. With shore power I bump it up to 5. Since we are OT the most annoying thing is the new great CPAP masks use magnets to hold the straps in place - a no can do thing for a pacemaker patient. Those little magnets tested really strong in Tesla and I'm still on the old mask model since '06.

[NYBobbo]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Our MH battery bank consists of 230 amp hours of AGM capacity.

That's what I have... they are worth the upgrade. I find the solar (200w) helps quite a bit when boondocking but they aren't cheap. My second 100w I purchased as a used panel and saved quite a bit.


It all comes down to the OEM batteries Winnebago (and probably others) uses are not really up to the job for boondocking for any period of time - really there to keep everything running when traveling.


Better batteries should be an option at purchase time!

[DavidM]

I posted the following to another thread asking the same question. I am a little surprised by Kayak's experience with the Nova Cool fridge. It should cycle at 50% in a moderate climate. Did you really measure double the stated amperage? Did you have a load of warm food that caused it to run continuously. Not my experience.

I did find a reference to the actual model fridge used in the View and it is a Norcold DE-0061. It's data sheet says it draws 3.2 amps. That is a small Danfoss compressor and maybe it does run more or less continuously. But that still is only 77 amp hours daily as opposed to the 60 amp hours I used for the illustrations below.

Kayak and others can reduce their genset running time by upgrading to a 75 amp converter. If you do this upgrade then do upgrade the batteries to at least the two GC batteries or better the T-1275s that Kayak uses. You shouldn't charge more than 25% of the batteries rated capacity and two GC batteries doesn't really meet this but the T-1275s do.

In any case this is my posting:The Nova Cool DC compressor fridge:


I have used them on boats and they typically draw 5 amps DC when the compressor is running and in moderate climates the compressor will run 50% of the time. So the fridge uses 5*24*.5= 60 amp hours daily. Your pair of Group 24 FLA batteries is probably rated for 130 amp hours and since you don't want to run them down routinely below 50% they will only last a day. And you have other DC loads like lights (minimal), TV (3-4 amps when on) and TV with DVD player (6-8 amps when on), etc.

If you upgrade the Group 24s to two golf cart batteries wired in series you get 220 amp hours or 110 usable. That will let you run for two days without charging, again ignoring other DC loads.

Solar can help a lot. 200 watts of solar on a sunny day will produce 60-80 amp hours and pretty well covers all loads.

And if you have a series of cloudy days, then start the generator. It will charge the batteries at least initially at 45 amps, so two hours of running will bring them back to mostly charged.

And finally running your chassis engine while motoring down the road will recharge the coach batteries. I am guessing it will charge them at about a 20- 30A rate, so 3-4 hours of driving should bring them back.

David

[Kayak73]

DavidM,

This is Kayak, I do not have a NovaKool refrigerator. I have the stock DE0061R installed by WGO.

Then, if you really believe the 45amp converter, PD9245, in the View will charge at 45amps I suggest you pick up a Fluke or a decent clamp meter and do some measurements. The most, absolute most, my PD9245 will put to the batteries is 10amps. The literature for that model converter is very misleading and many think it is correct. This is a common understanding where science does overcome fear and superstition. Measure it and you will see. You also need to understand that upgrading to a 75 amp or 100 amp converter will NOT provide any increased benefit in charging FLA or AGM batteries. Just don't do that. Check the charge rate specified by the mfg of your batteries and buy a good charger if you want to stay FLA or AGM and connect it to the inverter cables for a good charge. Just leave the crappy PD9245 in place and turn it off.

As far as the cycle time of the DE0061R I posted some graphs of several runs taken by my Fluke BT connected to the Fluke app on my phone to show the amp draw under different conditions. Yes, in every case the DE0061R meets the manufacturer specifications in amp draw. Yes, in initial cool down it draws higher and runs long cycle.

The end result is as noted many times. Solar helps depending on weather, time of year and the place you park the rig. The PD9245 will not be your friend and running the genny to recharge the batteries is almost pointless unless you want enemies in camp because you will run it all day given the charge rate of the PD9245. Yes, the PD9245 is rated a 45amp converter but it charges regardless of load at no more than 10 amps. Plug up a real external charger or install one if you want to keep FLA or AGM batteries and dry camp in this rig. No, there is nothing wrong with a good DE0061R refrigerator but it is lacking in insulation and a bit noisy. It meets mfg spec.

Finally the solution was to install two Battle Born LiFeP04 batteries and a PD9145ALV charger at the inverter cables. Left the PD9245 in place and the breaker off. Now a 30 minute or so run of the genny AM will take care of recharge and the solar helps as necessary if possible, conditions allowing. Now I make more friends in camp.

No, even on a sunny day and harvest of 80AH (something not likely with those 2 panels) you will fall behind quickly. All loads, lets see water pump, CPAP, music, heater blower, lights, let bed down and raise bed, and the ever lovin refrigerator all the time along with other small constant loads and don't leave the LP switch turned on or install the LP solenoid fix. I think you might squeeze by on 120 AH a day or so if you are frugal. Like I said many times, expectations are frequently not realistic. You can use a Fluke or any good clamp (induction) meter to measure DC amp draw easily. If possible avoid the inverter use and always turn it off if not being used. For practical purposes I just do not add the benefit of solar into the equation. Most of the time we camp in the shade if possible and that reduces the AH collected. So does a rainy day. Solar is all about location, time of the year, quality of your installation. It can be a great help sometimes and in some locations. Sometimes it can really be the only power charge source necessary depending on the prior statement.

Finally, none of this means anything unless you want to dry camp. If you camp plug to plug just ignore it and keep the stock batteries and be happy.

[Kayak73]

I implied this but want to reiterate. Do NOT increase the OEM converter size unless you install new charge cables to the batteries. The OEM is 8ga wire and a pretty good length run. The best thing to do is put a real charger in the first bay PS where the inverter is and use the inverter POS to battery for a charge cable (just connect to it). That will give you a cable capable of handling 45amp charge. LFP I did just that.

I also forgot to mention that I have measured the output of the PD9145ALV and it is a true 45amp charger. Normally that's the output after a night run and at the correct voltage. Usually it tapers right at cutoff and in a few seconds it shows 0amps output - the battery is charged to 100%. Normally that takes less than an hour after an overnight run but could take longer if you run a lot of stuff the prior evening. With the LFP I could use a larger charger if desired.

There are other caveats in charging the batteries dry camped with our 2018 View 24D. One, two charging sources. The converter will see the output of the solar controller and drop right into FLOAT mode. Overcome this by purchasing and installing the remote pendant for the PD9245, about $11 US from Amazon. I also installed a switchable circuit breaker on each negative lead behind the solar controller. That allows me to over ride the solar charge and put the PD9245 into BULK mode but it also allowed me to isolate the solar panels for battery work - protect them - so I don't need to unplug them or cover them while working. With the current setup it does not matter, the PD9145ALV charges at 45amps at the set voltage, period. I still like the switchable circuit breakers for service of the panels and I still shut down the panels while doing the genny run for recharge. In certain situations the OEM Zamp controller will need to be reset. The procedure is to remove the negative leads one at a time and then reconnect them in reverse order. The switchable breakers make this fast and easy.