Converting to Lithium house Batteries

[creativepart]

These LiPo batteries are made up of dozens of small approx 3.3v batteries - almost the same size as a AA battery - stacked in individual cells. Each of these cells is self-contained and the batteries inside are wired in series to make the battery voltage. These 12v cells and wired in parallel to make the amp hour rating of the overall battery.

It's pretty vital that all of the individual batteries and cells are balanced together within each battery. And, that's what the BMS Cell Balance feature does withing each physical "battery."

So, assuming that the battery bank is made up of multiple individual batteries and wired in Parallel I'd still want to set up the wiring to balance the power in and out of the entire BANK.

Better yet is to add a dedicated battery DC distribution system like the Victron VTLynx.

[Winterbagoal]

Actually, my batteries are wired that way, but I still think it's unnecessary micro-management.
One thing it does, is sell hardware for companies like Victron, Blue Sea, and so on.
Anyway, as I said, we do what we do, because we can.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Actually, my batteries are wired that way, but I still think it's unnecessary micro-management.
One thing it does, is sell hardware for companies like Victron, Blue Sea, and so on.
Anyway, as I said, we do what we do, because we can.

No "expensive" hardware is needed to insure that the cabling setup for charging and discharging of batteries in parallel provides for each battery seeing the same overall cable path lengths presented to currents coming into it (when being charged) and leaving it (when powering RV loads).

Ballancing between batteries has nothing to do with what the individual batteries may be doing internally to keep current distributions optimized for all of the cells within it. It's all explained here, and the only extra cost would be for having to purchase slightly more cabling and connectors to make the proper interconnections between the paralleled batteries:
SmartGauge Electronics - Interconnecting multiple batteries to form one larger bank

[jcurtisis]

Thanks all for the great discussion on battery layout. Pictured is the existing layout which is “sort of” the suggested best layout because there are two + house connections, and each battery has one connection. Not sure why there are two + lines. One of them (opposite side where my foot is) connects through a white flat “thing” (I suppose it is some sort of fail safe current or heat device). Anyone know why BOTH house + connections don’t go via the same route?

[creativepart]

I think two positive cables are normal - one to the alternator and one to the Converter-Charger OR inverter-charger depending on your RV's electrical setup. The "center thing" is most likely a fused link for overload protection. The positive cable from the battery that doesn't go to the fused link is probably the alternator connection.

Here I am stating all of this like I "know" it's so. Actually, I have a similar setup and that is always how I've "thought" it works. Though my batteries are in a large basement compartment with 4-batteries the wiring is pretty similar.

[jcurtisis]

Well that seems reasonable. I plan to hook things up in a similar manner, but as related previously for load balancing I’ll probably have the two “house” + ends connect to the same + battery terminal.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by creativepart

I think two positive cables are normal - one to the alternator and one to the Converter-Charger OR inverter-charger depending on your RV's electrical setup. The "center thing" is most likely a fused link for overload protection. The positive cable from the battery that doesn't go to the fused link is probably the alternator connection.

Here I am stating all of this like I "know" it's so. Actually, I have a similar setup and that is always how I've "thought" it works. Though my batteries are in a large basement compartment with 4-batteries the wiring is pretty similar.

Creativepart: Seems you are correct: according to the wiring diagram ( https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/2018/000033158.pdf ) the “fuse link” + cable goes to the inverter. The other + cable leads into the chassis.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Yes, I had to grind off the lip at either side of the original tray base. My new battery cases are almost 25" wide, placed end to end/side by side. I don't think they're going to fall out, as the tie downs seem very secure holding them in place.
For my RB100-LT models, the tie downs still fit over the cases. Had to adjust/raise slightly the large bolt holding the top of the tie down to the back wall of the battery trays a bit, but after a little fiddling, it all fit eventually.
The tie downs were a pita during squeezing the 2 batteries into the tray, as they kept falling into the way. I should have maybe taped them to the sides of the tray, before trying to place the new batteries.
It was getting dark and later in the day, so I did a quick paint job of the bare metal ends, and then placed a piece of that interlocking floor mat stuff people use to cushion the floor in a home gym area. Cut it to size first, of course.
All told, it cost me about 2 hours of labor (and some occasional profanities), about $20 for the grinder (I live in Canada, and even with our weaker $ the US model is cheaper, so I picked one up in Michigan), and a couple of bucks for a package of that floor mat stuff. I already had some Tremclad paint.
re: battery cables - thanks for reminding me. Yes the parallel (short) cables were too short by a hair, so I had to pick up a couple of generics from the local Canadian Tire. I think they were about $15 for 1/0 gauge cables 18" with the ends already crimped with eyelet lug connectors.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...1088p.html#srp

WINTERBAGOAL: After grinding off the lip of the existing battery tray were you at all concerned that the new LI batteries extend about 1.5” beyond the sides? I was thinking of putting a piece of thin sheet metal under the batteries and bend the edges up to form a new lip....perhaps that is overkill (?). Also, how thick was the synthetic mat you put underneath the batteries?

[Buddy’s RV]

We are new to R V camping and have a 2019 View 24D . My question is what is the advantage to replacing the wet cell batteries that came in the R V with lithium batteries ? The 2 batteries that came in the View are fine now but someday will wear out and need replacing . Should I consider the lithium over the wet cell then ?

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Buddy’s RV

We are new to R V camping and have a 2019 View 24D . My question is what is the advantage to replacing the wet cell batteries that came in the R V with lithium batteries ? The 2 batteries that came in the View are fine now but someday will wear out and need replacing . Should I consider the lithium over the wet cell then ?

There are tons of websites and YouTube videos that will detail this for you, as it’s a pretty massive topic.

Here is just one YouTube video that tackles the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfMROVzjVWU

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Buddy’s RV

We are new to R V camping and have a 2019 View 24D . My question is what is the advantage to replacing the wet cell batteries that came in the R V with lithium batteries ? The 2 batteries that came in the View are fine now but someday will wear out and need replacing . Should I consider the lithium over the wet cell then ?

Certainly not a current priority for a new RVer.

IMHO, the biggest barrier is the upfront cost and, I believe that, over the next few years, we're going to see lower and lower prices and better products as the technology matures.

When your current batteries need replacing, I suggest that you consider installing two 6V "golf cart" batteries in parallel. By the time they wear out maybe the cost of lithium batteries will make sense. In the meantime, keep tuned and stay educated. That's what I'm doing.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Buddy’s RV

We are new to R V camping and have a 2019 View 24D . My question is what is the advantage to replacing the wet cell batteries that came in the R V with lithium batteries ? The 2 batteries that came in the View are fine now but someday will wear out and need replacing . Should I consider the lithium over the wet cell then ?

Creativepart posted an *excellent* summary of WHY one would want to convert to Lithuim. BobC is also right - many people have gone the way of the 6V “golf cart” Lead-Acid batteries as they provide more usable power than the 12v. We went the way of LI as we wanted the additional power LI provides as we have several “dry camping” excursions in our future and our experience is that the lead-acid batteries just don’t hack more than about 3 days in keeping up with the refrigerator. One can run the generator of course, but that is restricted in “when” you can use them at all private, state and federal RV parks we have been at (not an issue for BLM type campsites of course).
If you are ready to “jump in” with LI now, What is left to consider is the vendor and cost of installation. I discussed that in the postings above. I chose the “Battle borne” batteries- and it turns out the way to get a better price is to wait for a “holiday special” price (no surprise there) or look for a local vendor (there is one where I live that specializes in batteries; apparently they can “deal”, as his starting price was $900 [that is $49 less than the on line price for the 100 amp hour battle borne battery BB10012 https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/ ]). There are many vendors- beware of the cheap ones as you reall do get what you pay for. Several YouTube videos are available- I like those by Will Prouse (https://www.google.com/search?q=will...&client=safari) who is a big fan of USA made battle borne batteries.
We have the 2018 24D; In your 2019 view 24D, does the battery tray have a curled up lip on the sides? Ours did which only provided 22” of space for two batteries- but the BB batteries require 25”- hence the discussion above about grinding off the lip. Still not sure if I should put something down under the batteries to cover the 1.5” exposed corners or not. Probably not an issue considering the fact that the battery platform has existing homes in the center portion already.

[jcurtisis]

DONE!
Two Battle Borne BB10012 Lithium Batteries are IN and CHARGING. I took the advice about grinding off the lip of the battery tray...started slow and was loud, but I suppose it was only about 10 min on each side, although it seemed much longer- and it wasn’t a great angle for my 60+ year old knees and arms. I opted to buy some 28 gauge steel sheet metal from Dixie Line to cover the entire 25” of the new battery bottom; I cut the metal 7 7/8” wide and 27.5” long so I could bend up a 1.25” edge on both sides of the batteries. Made me feel better about protecting them.
I cut the width to cover the whole bottom and then marked and cut two holes for the battery tie-down posts (also worked to anchor the metal plate in place without needing to pop rivet or screw or weld it down). Of course I had to paint it all (ran out of black so had to touch up with some white paint I had in hand- those are the white spots in the pix). Painting turned into a pita as the nozzle snapped off- being unwilling to throw away a full van of spray paint I forced the nozzle to “bubble out” the black paint and used a brush to spread it out; (yes it was a mess; yes I had to sacrifice a paintbrush; fortunately I had lots of paper bags and cardboard so cleanup was EZer).
Wiring up the batteries was interesting as the left side red cable original position along the back side of the battery tray wouldn’t work with the wider BB battery. Had to run it around the other side, but it was too short to reach the big fuse thing (which I had to remove in order to get the BBs in place- fortunately it was EZ to unscrew and re-attach). I could have had a local battery shop make me a longer cable, but getting to the other end would have been hard (as in major pita), so with the battery guru guy’s advice I just bolted a extension to the terminal so it would reach the big fuse thing in its original spot (I know, not ideal, but it was just like a bus bar without the bar). Used dielectric compound on the bolt and triple taped the connection. Checked resistance with my volt meter and was happy with result.
I did have to buy two new 18” 2 gauge battery cables- needed them for the cross-over neg to neg and pos to pos connections for parallel installation (yes- the battery cable extender I used was one of the old cross-over 12” cables).
I went back and forth on ways to get these taller and wider and longer batteries (but 10 lbs lighter!!) wired up to the house pos and neg cables. In the end I opted to have the terminals facing out (reversed the position of the + and - terminals). I hoped to use a optimal configuration as described above by others, but in the end I basically just repeated how the Winnebago engineers did it with the original batteries where the left side inverter red cable goes to the left battery + terminal and the right side red cable from the chassis alternator went to the right side battery + terminal.
A bit of trial and error in all this, and I ONLY had to put the batteries in and take them out three times.

[19view]

I have a 2019 View 24D and will be swapping out the acid-lead with the same Battle Born lithium batteries. According to Battle Born, no changes or modifications are needed to the inverter, converter or other components. Is that what you found?

Thanks.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by 19view

I have a 2019 View 24D and will be swapping out the acid-lead with the same Battle Born lithium batteries. According to Battle Born, no changes or modifications are needed to the inverter, converter or other components. Is that what you found?

Thanks.

19View: That is mostly correct. I had to add the remote Wizard Pendant to the Progressive Dynamics (PD) 9245 converter so it could be manually be put into the “boost” mode. LI batteries need higher voltage, so ya gotta boost it periodically when in use. I posted info about that on: http://www.winnieowners.com/forums/f...on-356009.html (go most of the way to the bottom on page 1). I assume your converter is the same and in the same location.
Standing by for any questions. Main takeaways: take pictures/ pull everything out of the way (includes the big cracker-sized fuse)/ get straps for the batteries (I used Velcro strips) / turn off the coach power / measure voltages on all + lines as your solar may still be on with the coach off/ my cables were 2 gauge- check to be sure what you need, as you have to buy longer cables to connect plus to plus and minus to minus.

[19view]

Thanks John, your are a wealth of information, especially for us "non-engineer geeks" who deep down just want to turn things on and have them work. Of course not possible as an RV owner. Battle Born did mention the remote pendant, but it appeared to be an optional monitoring device. From your description, sounds like it should be attached and used - correct? According to Progressive Dynamic website, one model (PD92201) of the pendant for all series 9200 converters. Is this the model you are using?

I could muddle my way through this, but have more money than time and will hire someone to help me with the alterations needed to make this happen. This information is extremely helpful.

Gary

[jcurtisis]

Yes, correct. Got mine on Amazon. Picture attached. Connecting it is interesting- I discuss that on the previous posting.
Understand the time vs money issue. Two RV places near me said they would estimate it for ~$700. They proposed building a new base with welded angle iron all around to secure the bottom. “Beware” I say; that is way overkill. It was probably overkill for me to put the 28 gauge steel plate on the bottom (I also bent up the narrow edges so it was similar to the OEM base plate).
I suggest you look also for a battery shop local to you. Turns out there were two near me and they both offered BB batteries and did installation in RVs (who knew). Just saying that is another viable option if you are getting quotes.
Not knowing your situation at all, I will still offer this encouragement to you: “if one man can do it, so can another!” That is why I thought to try this on my own.
Let me know how it turns out!

[19view]

Thanks again - I'll let you know how it goes.

[19view]

After deciding to replace my lead-acid batteries with lithium batteries, I got in touch with Battle Born (using model #BB10012). They asked the rating of my chassis alternator (220-amp per my spec sheet) and told me I would need a DC to DC charger (https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...wered-charger/).

I was told that because of the high alternator amperage, the batteries would burn out too quickly. I have not seen this in other posts regarding this issue. I thought the converter (PD 9245) has a microprocessor that automatically monitors and adjusts the converter output voltage to provide the proper charging voltage.

Does this make sense, is this additional component really needed?

Gary

[creativepart]

The converter has nothing to do with charging via your alternator. The converter charges from shore power and or via a generator. So yes, BB’s caution makes perfect sense and should be considered.

Also, I don’t know anything about your converter but even on shore power you need to be sure that the charging profile of your converter is appropriate for your battery bank. I’m not saying it isn’t but you should not assume anything.

Originally Posted by 19view

I have not seen this in other posts regarding this issue.

This is a common discussion point. Not unusual at all. Some folks chose to ignore the issue, some remove the alternator from the house battery bank entirely, some use an isolator and some use other methods to accommodate the charging of LiPo batteries with their vehicle’s alternator. Perhaps you should do more reading on this subject.

Here’s a link fro IRV2.com that discusses this and you’ll see all kinds of opinions on the topic http://www.irv2.com/forums/f56/charg...ts-467968.html