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Old 07-05-2018, 02:09 AM   #1
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Post Xantrex Freedom e-GEN Lithium Battery system

Yesterday I found the news that Xantrex would sell a Lithium battery for RVs Class B.

Here the link to the company page: Freedom e-GEN Powered by Xantrex.

Here is a very interesting page: RV Lithium/AGM Battery & Electrical System Upgrade - Part 4 - Lithium Battery Installation - TheRVgeeks.

I downloaded the brochure and product manual but after a first moment of exultation I was disappointed.

If what the manual says is true, the battery has only 600 Ah. I do not understand how they can claim that this battery can detach the RV from the network and work without a generator. It should even make the air conditioning work! Absurd!

On my RV I have 1.3 kW of lead batteries but they are not remotely sufficient to run the air conditioning. It would not even 6 kW, but 20 to 30 kW for a decent daily operation!

What is the purpose of this battery? It is not clear how much it costs and not even the weight, but from the videos it's pretty big, how do they load it on a RV class B?

I'm afraid we'll have to wait a long time to see our RV really free from the electrical grid.

Greetings

Tony
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:58 AM   #2
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First, most lead acid deep cycle batteries store between 80 and 100 amps. Of which only 50% is available for use. But Li batteries can use 80% or more of their available amps without damage. So, assuming most class Bs have 200 amps of battery storage, but can only use 50% of that without damaging the batteries, then adding 600 amps of Li batteries would increase the available power by roughly 5 times.

With the right inverter it could start and run the AC, just not for very long.

600 amps of lithium batteries would be much lighter that 600 amps of lead acid batteries but 10 times the cost. A good guess of the price is probably around $6,000. Could be more.

Plus, to be really off the grid you would need more solar charging capability than a 40’ Class A could allow to somehow fit on a class B roof.

I think you might have some incorrect assumptions about all of this.

Changing to Li batteries in any RV would greatly increase the available amps stored (at great cost) and permit much more power for off the grid camping. But, at this time cannot replace a generator or shore power for things like AC appliances.

When you apply this to a small RV like a class B the extra power would be great. But as you say not really going to run the AC all day.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:35 AM   #3
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Bate and switch? Never liked Xantrex. Had (my still have ) poor support.


600ah is strong enough to run basics in my rig. Same as AGM's but would run longer. I noticed they are not advertising what battery they are recommending.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:32 AM   #4
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Unhappy

It would really interest me, because I have 1.2 kW of solar panels on the roof and in full sun is a great help, but the Xantrex battery is still too small.

It's much more interesting the Tesla's Power Wall (10 kW), the problem (apart the costs) is that does not work if you are not connected to the grid, it's not designed for use on RV.

I heard a Tesla vendor and he confirmed that with actual products it's impossible an installation on RV.



But... a 10 kW battery is already interesting for a class A.

I'm afraid we should wait a few more years.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:13 AM   #5
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> I'm afraid we should wait a few more years.

The future is now :-)

Winnebago is now making and selling their version of this in the Travato 59KL and 59GL Class Bs. Looks very well thought out, and integrated well into the coach. Winnebago is marketing this as the "Pure 3 Energy Management System". It does not match the Xantrex Freedom e-GEN system specs. They used a system from a different company called Volta.

- They use a 200 pound Li electric hybrid vehicle battery pack storing 8.7 Kilowatts mounted below the floor, it is properly ventilated so it does not get too hot or too cold.

- They use a 3,600 Watt Pure Sine Output Charger powering all AC systems in the RV including the Air Conditioner.

- Power for driving loads and charging batteries comes from either 30 Amp Shore Cable or a 2nd 58 volt over 4 kW peak output Alternator Winnebago adds to the Ram Promaster Chassis.

- Solar panels and controller for up to 200 Watts of Solar is integrated. One solar panel standard.

- The controller adds Ram Promaster Chassis Autostart and can fast idle the gasoline chassis engine to when needed to have alternator output meet load requirements.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:23 AM   #6
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Lichtsinn web page and video on Travato 59KL and 59GL
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:14 AM   #7
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Look on Youtube - there are a number of RVers that have purchased partial Tesla battery packs from wrecked cars for installation in RVs. And at least one guy in Phoenix with a Nissan Leaf battery pack building a bus conversion RV.

This issue is really a space issue - and cost - but on a Class B you are extremely limited on space.

The WBGO Travato with Li Power is neat and will run the AC, but not for very long and not without additional solar or running the vehicle's engine to keep the batteries charged.

You keep talking Kilowatts - and most RVers speak in Watts or Amps. What is your 1.2KW of solar panels? That would be 6-200 watt solar panels. On a Class B? How do you fit them? Or are you figuring 100 Watts of solar power for 12 hours a day?

I would think that you should be able to get as much as 400 watts of solar on a Class B. But keep in mind that that figure is in ideal conditions for a short period of a day of complete sun, with no shade or shadows. That's a max amount that is never achieved for any extended period of time.

I have 300 Watts of solar charging 400 Amp hours of AGM batteries and a 2000 Watt PSW inverter. This will run a residential refrigerator and power a couple of TVs without a problem for a few days, but to run microwave, heater and or other power hungry appliances is impossible without recharging via the generator on my RV a few hours a day, too.

Here's a photo of my roof. 3-100 watt panels. I have room for probably 6-200 watt panels - that would be your 1.2 kw. But I don't have the equipment necessary to take advantage of all that solar. AND I still want to be able to walk around the roof to service things.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:26 PM   #8
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Talking

I have a class A RV (38') and 4 solar panel from 300 watts each.

Look the aerial photo... of my motorhome in parking...

That's why I'm interested in lithium batteries.

I did not know about the Winnebago Travato, it could be the right solution, the problem is if it can be installed after market.

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Old 07-05-2018, 04:36 PM   #9
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Oh, I see. You were talking Class B so I was at a loss to see how you got 1.2kw on a Class B.

For that matter 300 watt panels are fairly rare too. 100's, 150's. and 200's are much more common.

You can get Li Batteries to replace your lead/acid batteries from a number of places that specialize in RVs (and boats).

There are many companies that are making Li Batteries the same size and shape as lead betteries so you simply swap out the lead bats and put in the Li bats.

They go for around $1500 for a 100 watt. Obviously you need to change your charger but many modern inverter/chargers can be set to charge Li bats.

The thing about the Xantrex system that the Geeks installed is that you order the size box that will fit your rig and they'll custom make a battery to fit. And, it will include battery monitoring and temp sensing built in. They said it's also insulated too.

You can't freeze Li Bat ever, at all. And, you shouldn't over heat them either.

Here's some links:

https://nexgenbattery.com/shop/
https://relionbattery.com/products/l...ional-vehicles
https://battlebornbatteries.com/
https://amsolar.com/
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:40 PM   #10
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“First, most lead acid deep cycle batteries store between 80 and 100 amps.”

No, creative, that’s not correct. Group 24s do but not the others. See for instance https://www.trojanbattery.com/produc...ine-flooded-2/
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
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“First, most lead acid deep cycle batteries store between 80 and 100 amps.”

No, creative, that’s not correct. Group 24s do but not the others.
Obviously, not. This thread started out talking about batteries in Class B RVs. And so, my info was limited to that and was not to mean that there are not Lead Acid batteries that are higher than 100 amps.

When someone asks a question you never know enough specifics to tailor an answer to the exact situation of the person asking the question.

Just trying to help. That's what forums are for.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:31 PM   #12
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OK, no problem, what matters is that in a short time we have put together a mass of really interesting information.

Lithium batteries are the near future and now we understand that it is very close.

The only problem for now is the very high costs.


When lithium batteries will cost like lead-acid batteries, we'll be fine!

I think it will still take at least 4-5 years.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:10 PM   #13
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The electric car battery packs storing 10 Kilowatts are similar to having 8 200 amp hour golf cart batteries, with less than 1/4 the weight. They can be charged 8 times faster. They last 8 years or more.

Volta has created several systems for Class As and Class Cs that Winnebago and other Coach Builders will be introducing Coaches on. I susupect we will see quite a few 2019 coaches offering this as coach build option similar to how Winnebago did it on the Travato.

These systems will allow for propane free, residential refrigerator coaches that still have a decent boondocking capabiltity without needing to use the RV in only sunny areas and have tons of solar panels.

Other neat features

- the dedicated 6000 Watt Alternator added to the chassis engine gives full use of all AC powered items in the coach when traveling, while using less than 10 horsepower of engine power so should not impact drive-ability. Driving will recharge batteries quickly.

- reference designs have been created to duplicate current 30 amp coach designs and current 50 amp coach designs.

- systems will have batteries sized so that coach can be used with no restrictions including running ACs or Heat Pumps at 50% duty cycle for up to about a half day without generator starting to do battery recharge.

- coaches can still have fuel powered generator but it will just be for battery pack recharge so it will be running only at full load making it very fuel efficient. Generator will be sized to recharge depleted batteries with 1 hour run time.

- Volta has created a Variable Output Air Cond Compressor and Electric Fans to blow air across the coach AC evaporator that both run directly off the 50 Volt Electric Battery System. This is similar to how AC in Electric Vehicles like Prius work. So you could have a souped up version of the coach dash AC ducted and sized to cool the entire coach and lose the noisy roof top ACs.

I can't wait to see what the Winnie engineers conjur up for 2019.
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:45 AM   #14
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All great talk about Lithium and RVs. Some have made attempts and there are several utubes showing electrical engineers explaining how they put ya-da-da battery in their RV, like a Tesla etc. All great and wonderful but they do NOT touch the average RV user needs, not even close. Today if you need power you buy wet or AGM, depending on your particular whim. I would not bet any money that WGO is working very hard on making an energy efficient coach based on what they turned out for a 2018 View 24D and exactly what they turned out for a 2019 version of the same rig. Compressor refrigerator with two dinky group 24 batteries, not even deep cycle. States on the case "not for inverter use" yet WGO chose to put those into the rigs along with a 1000 watt PSW inverter? Nope, WGO is not close with the exception of the class B mentioned. Then they dropped in a PD9245 converter which should have been a 55 or 60amp model. My goodness! There is no available "drop-in" lithium battery pack today. You will need to change the converter, solar controller, isolation solenoid - all kinds of stuff, just did a lot of research because my needs pointed to Lithium as the best solution - it was not. Perhaps in a few years but it can be done today if you want to buy the battery for 2-3k dollars then double that by making the mods and after you do that you might or might not get the cycle life they project because the systems available today on the market are not really primed for this battery. Let me see, yep, I was an electrical engineer, math and physics hard core but my solution was to follow another's lead and take the Sawzall to the silly battery tray and Frankenchop it so two Trojan T-1275s would fit in that space. Cost= lot of sweat on a hot humid day, $150 per battery + tax, one new 3ft black 1/0 cable. Likely life expectancy of these batteries is 5-7 years. Yes, paid the 85 pound weight penalty. Yes, they run the compressor refrigerator (very loud refer) overnight plus my CPAP and a bit of TV or music plus other necessary loads. I think the new lithium batteries SOUND great - until you try to install them. Will RV makers jump on board for anything other than a trial model - time will tell but for the consumer it will mean a hefty price increase. Just imagine - they can't get it right with wet cells yet do you think they really could produce off the line new energy products? Thinking about all the issues owners have with new coaches today I would prefer they just leave the electrical stuff alone, they can't manage it today without "rocket science" and give them a bit of technology they could make the perfect rig to sit parked it's whole life time in a driveway or lot somewhere. Then again, I may be wrong.
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