Who makes this solenoid and, is it operating normal?

[FIRE UP]

Gents,
Pre-script: I posted this on another RV Form but, I need as many qualified eyes seeing it as possible so, I ran it here too.

I need a little help here. Below is a picture of a solenoid that was attached to our recently purchased '03 Jeep Rubicon. I believe is was used as a starter kill system. In other words, unless this particular solenoid was triggered, the starter would not turn over. I did one similar to this only I used a battery disconnect switch, the kind with the red plastic, removable key.

Anyway, the system was partially disconnected when we purchased the Jeep and, I'd like to get it operating as a theft deterrent system. When I first removed it, nothing worked. I discected the solenoid to see if it was corroded on the inside. It was flawlessly perfect. So, I put it all back together. I cleaned all the terminals on the outside.

Connected to it from inside the Jeep was a tiny, two way, spring loaded, toggle switch. There are four wires emminating from that switch. A black, a red, a blue and a yellow. The black when to the body of the Jeep as a ground. The red went to the other side of a side mounted fuse terminal which, is tied to what I think is the battery side of the solenoid. The Yellow is tied to the "S" terminal of it and the blue is tied to the "I" terminal.

Now, when I removed it, cleaned it all up, and re-attached all the wires as it was in the Jeep, only on my bench, I hooked up the Jeep battery to it and, I get some odd results. I have the black wire from the toggle going directly to the mounting tangs of the solenoid. The others are where I stated.

I connected the positive of the battery to the side with the fuse and small red wire. Now, here's the deal.

I connected my VOM to the two large posts and set it for sound notification in continuity.

When I flip the small toggle in one direction, the solenoid closes and, I get sound from my volt ohm meter. When I let the toggle return to the center, the sound quits and, no continuity. All good so far.

But, when I flip that toggle the other way, the solenoid closes and, I get sound. All good, yes? But, when I let the toggle self-return to the center position, the sound stays on and, so does the continuity!!! Hmmmm, not sure that is good. I flipped that little toggle in both directions, several times and, each time I got the same exact results. It (the solenoid) stays engaged after flipping it one way but, disengages automatically after the toggle is flipped and released, in the other direction.

So, while this solenoid LOOKS like a normal starter solenoid, and as stated, it has the "S" terminal and "I" terminal along with the two larger ones, one on each side, something is making it operate differently when the toggle is pushed in different directions.

Question: Is this normal for ANY solenoid to stay self connected, even when battery power is pulled from the large connector on the battery side?

Question: In the old days, as in the '60s, I used to hot wire cars, namely Fords, and start them using that same style solenoid. All you did was connect a jumper from the large, battery terminal on the one side to the "I" terminal to give the engine ignition. The, use a pair of pliers to short the large battery terminal to the "S" terminal to engage the starter.

Now, before anyone starts thinking "I" was the one that stole your '65 Ford Galaxy, WRONG! I only did it because I figured out how. I thought it was cool that you could start a car engine without any keys. The law was pretty tough in our neighborhood so, if I was to do anything and get caught, well let's just say I'd have never been able to have kids, cause I would have been castrated.

Anyway, I'm thinking that solenoid is the same kind used on the old Fords. And, it's basically used as security system for the starter. So, if you don't know where the toggle is mounted, you could attempt to steal that Jeep all day long but the starter, would not turn over.
Scott

[okcnewbie]

Yes it is normal for latching solenoids to stay connected when the coil voltage is removed. Theres a magnet inside that causes this to happen. I believe many of our RV disconnect Solenoids are like this.

[l1v3fr33ord1]

Scott-

When I have a car security question I trundle over the the12volt.com. Here's a page on starter interrupts (using relays).

Starter circuits are not my area of expertise. I read your post through twice, but I haven't put the effort into understanding it enough to help you (yet).

[ChasA]

Scott, it works just like the house battery disconnect in your motor home. The switch some people call the salesman switch.

[l1v3fr33ord1]

Scott-

OK, I spent some time looking around. Here's a post from another board that talks about latching solenoids:

Here's one source for the latching solenoid built by Cole Hersee .Cole Hersee 12 Volt Latching Solenoid (110 AMP) - (Part#: 24200)
The wiring diagram is on that page right above the price,I think. I will double check to make sure its the same I'm using. You can hide a switch in the car somewhere and unless you know where it is,and thats why the car won't start, you won't get it started. I use a mini-springloaded toggle hidden in or around my car. One pull on the switch disconnects the battery,one more pull reconnects the battery. You will need to run a simple 12 source wire to keep your radio,etc. memories in force. You can spend MANY more dollars but you can't get a better ,simpler system.Like I said I have used them on three cars and never had a problem. I think you can still get this solenoid from O'Reilly Auto Parts. I'll make sure of the part number . Wayne
NOTE : The correct number on the solenoid is 24200-BX and made by COLE-HERSEE . I bought mine thru this link as i could never get O-Reilys to order it. These people have it and its about 70 bucks if I remember correctly,Contact Diesel Equipment Company of Greensboro North Carolia

The author, Wayne Parrish, even mentions the pliers trick in a different post on that same thread.

It's a different solenoid than the one you have, but I expect works the same.

In any case, have a great day, Scott!

[Hikerdogs]

"Anyway, I'm thinking that solenoid is the same kind used on the old Fords. And, it's basically used as security system for the starter. So, if you don't know where the toggle is mounted, you could attempt to steal that Jeep all day long but the starter, would not turn over."

As mentioned in previous posts it is a latching solenoid. Most commonly used in motorhomes to charge the house batteries when the engine is running. It's sometimes referred to as a "split charge relay" or a "Battery isolation relay". However contrary to popular belief IT IS NOT THE SAME AS A FORD STARTER SOLENOID.

The Ford solenoid has about a 5% duty cycle. It's only supposed to be engaged while the key is in the start potition and the starter is cranking. The solenoid in your picture has a 100% duty cycle. Meaning it can be engaged all the time without burning out. The Ford starter solenoid will burn out in a matter of minutes.

The most common application as I mentioned earlier is to charge both the house and chassis batteries in your motorhome. The solenoid is automatically activated when the ignition switch is turned on. It then allows current from the alternator to flow to both the house and chassis batteries. When the ignition key is turned off the solenoid shuts off isolating the house batteries from the chassis battery. This helps eliminate all batteries from becoming discharged when the motorhome sets in storage or the engine isn't run for long periods.

In most applications there is also a manual switch on the dash that will activate the solenoid to couple the batteries if the chassis battery has discharged to the point it can't start the engine.

These solenoids are manufactured by a variety of companies. They come in amperage ratings from 30 to 150. It's possible the one in your Jeep has been disconnected because it's too small for the load the starter is putting on it. If you choose to reinstall it or replace it make sure it will handle the amperage load of the starter, and any other circuits it controls.

In the TJ series you can accomplish the same thing by removing fuse #4 in the fuse block behind the glove box. This fuse controls current to the latching circuit on the starter solenoid. No fuse, no starter.

[grtharris]

FIRE UP Here is a drawing of how to connect the latching relay in a motorhome. In you Jeep install it just goes in series with the power lead going to the starter solenoid.

[rgvtexan]

Scott


This may help.

[FIRE UP]

Mark, Hikerdogs and all,
Wow, what a great response to this thread. I most certainly appreciate all of you contributing to this issue. I do know about continuous and limited duty solenoids. I mentioned that this one sure appears to be the same as the one used in the old Fords as a starting solenoid. I know things have changed since those days.

This one was disconnected when we purchased the Jeep a few months ago. And, there WAS a Viper alarm system in the Jeep too. However, the only thing that was working pertaining to that alarm system was the drivers door locking-unlocking solenoid. The rest of it, the horn, parking light, dome light activation circuits didn't work. So, the other day I proceeded to YANK that entire Viper alarm system out of the Jeep.

That included the solenoid and switch you see in the picture. But, due to my superior investigative techniques and, master knowledge of electronics, (YEAH SURE!), I determined that, that solenoid and switch, had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Viper system. It was a totally separate anti-theft deterrent.

Man, the first owner of this Jeep must have had a complex about someone wanting to steal it. Anyway, since I wrote the initial opening thread here, I've re-installed it and re-mounted the switch. Now, all I have to do is, run the wires, back through the firewall and, over to the solenoid and, do a check to see if the Jeep starts or not. If it does, great, if it doesn't due to the solenoid not being able to carry the amperage, well, no biggie. I'll remedy that too.

Again, thank all of you immensely for really taking the time to help here. This is great!!
Scott