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03-25-2017, 11:17 AM
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#21
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Winnebago Owner
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 61
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It seems to that the problem is that with the inverter on it feeds the outlets on the offending circuit, and when the generator is started the generator "sees" 120 volts on that circuit and shuts down to prevent two 120 volt sources feeding the same circuit. I would shut the inverter off and see what happens. Our 2005 Winnebago came with the same 300 watt inverter, and although it is a "pass through" inverter, that function is apparently not working as designed.
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03-25-2017, 12:09 PM
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#22
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,817
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The Body, 110 Volt Wiring Diagram and Volt Load Center/Auto Transfer Switch diagram for your coach confirm you statements that there are only four outlets on the RECPS2 circuit and that the inverter and GFCI are not involved.
Have you had a chance to see what happens when you're plugged into shore power with the generator off? Do the outlets on the RECPS2 circuit work then? If you don't already have one, a receptacle tester similar to this one Power Gear 3-Wire Receptacle Tester, 50542 is inexpensive and a good thing to have in your toolbox. (Should also be available locally at most any hardware, Home Depot, etc.)
The circuit diagrams shows that there are junctions/connections in the pantry, behind the fridge, under the dinette, and under the bed. The connections under the dinette (for the dinette outlet) and under the bed (for the 2 nightstand outlets) may be the most easily accessible. If you disconnected those that would leave only the vanity outlet on the circuit and you could see if things work with just that outlet active. If it does work then the problem is downstream, if not, it's upstream.
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Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
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03-25-2017, 08:54 PM
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#23
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbeierl
The Body, 110 Volt Wiring Diagram and Volt Load Center/Auto Transfer Switch diagram for your coach confirm you statements that there are only four outlets on the RECPS2 circuit and that the inverter and GFCI are not involved.
Have you had a chance to see what happens when you're plugged into shore power with the generator off? Do the outlets on the RECPS2 circuit work then? If you don't already have one, a receptacle tester similar to this one Power Gear 3-Wire Receptacle Tester, 50542 is inexpensive and a good thing to have in your toolbox. (Should also be available locally at most any hardware, Home Depot, etc.)
The circuit diagrams shows that there are junctions/connections in the pantry, behind the fridge, under the dinette, and under the bed. The connections under the dinette (for the dinette outlet) and under the bed (for the 2 nightstand outlets) may be the most easily accessible. If you disconnected those that would leave only the vanity outlet on the circuit and you could see if things work with just that outlet active. If it does work then the problem is downstream, if not, it's upstream.
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I haven't been able to gain access to shore power at the storage facility but will be able to connect on Wednesday to check things out.
I did buy a receptacle tester today but since whatever the issue is shuts down the generator immediately, the tester does me no good for now.
I found the junctions/connections under the bedroom slide, but found nothing under the dinette, dinette seating or the pantry. Are you possibly referring to those junctions as being located under the motorhome, and not inside the coach?
I decided to unhook the black wire from all four receptacles, going one by one, and running the generator / turning on the breaker, one by one. The first three shut down the generator but was pleasantly surprised that after disconnecting the last one, the generator did not shut down when I turned on the breaker. But when I put a meter on the wires, nothing. Went back to the third one, nothing. Went and checked a few receptacles on different circuits... nothing. What the heck is going on? I then realized the microwave clock was not flashing, so I realized that a main breaker must have tripped and taken out most or all of the 110v power to the coach. Turns out that sometime after disconnecting the fourth receptacle powering up the generator and turning on the breaker, the 30 amp breaker on the generator tripped, so presumably, disconnecting that fourth breaker at that point had nothing to do with the generator continuing to run. I think there was no 110v power to the breaker anyway, so on or off, it didn't matter.
At this point I do have a question regarding electrical power and how the process works based on the actual Winnebago receptacle. The design is nothing like a home receptacle where you can disconnect one black wire and you there-by disconnect every receptacle past that one on the same circuit. As you can see in the picture, the three wires lay into the back of the receptacle and the back-plate, when snapped into place, force the insulation on the wires to get punctured and make contact with the metal piece that then makes the receptacle 'hot'. So when I remove all three wires from the receptacle, how does that effect anything down leg? It seems that I have only physically removed a receptacle and I don't get how that 'testing procedure' has done anything further down-leg. I have to say that I'd really like to change things out to residential style receptacles where I can use the screws or quick releases but it's not an easy process since there is no electrical box in the wall.
If anyone hasn't yet tired of this thread, maybe it could be explained to me what I accomplished, if anything.
Again, thanks to all! -RT
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-25-2017, 09:28 PM
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#24
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 562
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Winnebago uses that style of outlet as the outlet clamps onto the interior wall without any supporting screws into the walls. The screws tighten up a plastic bracket to hold the outlet. With this style of outlet, there is continuity between all outlets in the circuit with or without the wiring connected to any single outlet.
You cannot really use household outlets as the walls are nowhere as deep as residential wall and there is nothing to secure an conventional electrical outlet box to.
The one thing that could cause an issue is if you have a load connected to one of the outlets continually and the connections have been reversed in that outlet. If all has worked well up to now, that scenario is unlikey but you should insure there is nothing plugged into the outets on that circuit when you are testing.
If anyone has been into the junction boxes recently, an interchange of conducts there could cause an issue but you will be able to rule that out with the polarity tester if all outlets test OK.
Good luck - you are becoming an experienced electrical guru !!!!
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Bob
09 Journey 39Z
Southern Ontario
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03-25-2017, 10:26 PM
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#25
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTegarini
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I did buy a receptacle tester today but since whatever the issue is shuts down the generator immediately, the tester does me no good for now.
I found the junctions/connections under the bedroom slide, but found nothing under the dinette, dinette seating or the pantry. Are you possibly referring to those junctions as being located under the motorhome, and not inside the coach?...
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The tester may be helpful once you can connect to shore power.
The Body, 110 Volt Wiring Installation diagram for your coach shows the physical location of the junction/connections. They will be inside the coach, not underneath. The one in the pantry will probably just look like a blank cover plate (or an outlet with no actual holes for a plug).
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Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
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03-25-2017, 10:36 PM
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#26
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmac
The one thing that could cause an issue is if you have a load connected to one of the outlets continually and the connections have been reversed in that outlet. If all has worked well up to now, that scenario is unlikey but you should insure there is nothing plugged into the outets on that circuit when you are testing.
If anyone has been into the junction boxes recently, an interchange of conducts there could cause an issue but you will be able to rule that out with the polarity tester if all outlets test OK.
Good luck - you are becoming an experienced electrical guru !!!!
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All four outlets have always worked perfectly until this issue suddenly came up; I've never even tripped a breaker. Only problem I've ever had is the bathroom GFCI tripped a couple of times and that takes out a few receptacles. Three are never used and the one at the dinette has nothing plugged into it except when traveling and at a RV park, used for charging devices and MacBook Pros. And currently, all four have at least the black wire disconnected, with on having all the wires disconnected.
Sigh... I don't FEEL like an experienced electrical guru. -RT
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-25-2017, 10:41 PM
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#27
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbeierl
The tester may be helpful once you can connect to shore power.
The Body, 110 Volt Wiring Installation diagram for your coach shows the physical location of the junction/connections. They will be inside the coach, not underneath. The one in the pantry will probably just look like a blank cover plate (or an outlet with no actual holes for a plug).
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I'll take another look tomorrow. The dinette ones seems like they should be really obvious, as that area is one of the slides. I sure hope it isn't located between the slide floor and the chassis, as I don't know how I would access that area, except maybe by pulling the slide all the way out.
Thank-you. -RT
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-27-2017, 05:29 AM
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#28
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Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 37
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We still haven't plugged into shore power? I don't think you have accomplished anything yet really. You did add some more pertinent facts which is often the case in these threads. Take your MH to the campground or someplace you can plug in. Even a 20 amp circuit at home will most likely be enough to convince you whether or not the wiring is bad.
Good luck!
__________________
1998 Tioga Class C
400 amp/hrs solar, Trimetric
Retire 2020 GLW
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03-27-2017, 06:05 AM
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#29
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Winnebago Watcher
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2
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I found a short in one of my AC receptacles, The black and white wires can come in contact with the center ground wire if the receptacle is not installed correctly. This type of receptacle is a press type that forces the wires into the contacts of the connector when the back cover is installed. See image.
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John & Debbie
2008 Fleetwood Discovery 40X Full Timers Since Oct 2015
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03-27-2017, 06:23 AM
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#30
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Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KF5UMC
I found a short in one of my AC receptacles, The black and white wires can come in contact with the center ground wire if the receptacle is not installed correctly. This type of receptacle is a press type that forces the wires into the contacts of the connector when the back cover is installed. See image.
Attachment 156217
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True. But since the wires aren't stripped there really isn't any copper showing or very little. It's not likely that a wire would pop out and somehow short from what I'm seeing.
__________________
1998 Tioga Class C
400 amp/hrs solar, Trimetric
Retire 2020 GLW
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03-27-2017, 09:58 AM
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#31
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okcnewbie
True. But since the wires aren't stripped there really isn't any copper showing or very little. It's not likely that a wire would pop out and somehow short from what I'm seeing.
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I have mine apart right now, all four look good, and I agree that it doesn't seem likely to have a wire short due to the small amount of copper showing. In fact, it's so small that it almost seems the wire contact would be underperforming, especially with heavy loads like a space heater.
I'm still searching for a better, residential-style receptacle to replace mine but have come up empty-handed searching the Internet. -RT
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-27-2017, 01:04 PM
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#32
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Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTegarini
... In fact, it's so small that it almost seems the wire contact would be underperforming, especially with heavy loads like a space heater.
-RT
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Really makes you wonder if we should ever hook a heater up to some of these outlets. I'm tempted to change one or two of them to something better.
__________________
1998 Tioga Class C
400 amp/hrs solar, Trimetric
Retire 2020 GLW
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03-27-2017, 01:36 PM
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#33
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okcnewbie
Really makes you wonder if we should ever hook a heater up to some of these outlets. I'm tempted to change one or two of them to something better.
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I don't use a space heater but now that I know how the receptacle is designed, I never will! I've spent a lot of time over the weekend doing research at various RV parts stores, gone to two locally, and spent over $40 in miscellaneous parts at Lowe's and Home Depot, trying to come up with a home-brew solution without having to take a saw to the interior walls. No success so far...
I'm still hoping someone will post a solution to a residential-style receptacle designed in the same space as a speedwire. It's hard for me to believe that those with $400k and over have the same junk as mine. -RT
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-27-2017, 02:03 PM
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#34
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 562
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A couple of things to consider before making changes to your electrical outlets:
1. The outlets installed would be UL approved so extensive testing would have been done on these to insure they can safely handle a 15 amp load
2. While the surface area of the connection looks small, it is likely the same as household outlets using the "push in" connectors rather than the screw
3. How many fires have you heard of caused by defective outlets like these?
4. How many fires in RVs have you heard of originating in gas absorbtion fridges by comparison?
5. Most RVers - myself included - use electrical heaters in these outlets without problems.
Might be worth considering if the "cure" is going to be worse than the status quo. Personally, I got rid of the Norcold years ago but have no discomfort with the current outlets. I am also an electrical engineer by training - that and a dollar will get you a small coffee at McDonalds!
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Bob
09 Journey 39Z
Southern Ontario
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03-27-2017, 05:16 PM
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#35
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmac
A couple of things to consider before making changes to your electrical outlets:
1. The outlets installed would be UL approved so extensive testing would have been done on these to insure they can safely handle a 15 amp load
2. While the surface area of the connection looks small, it is likely the same as household outlets using the "push in" connectors rather than the screw
3. How many fires have you heard of caused by defective outlets like these?
4. How many fires in RVs have you heard of originating in gas absorbtion fridges by comparison?
5. Most RVers - myself included - use electrical heaters in these outlets without problems.
Might be worth considering if the "cure" is going to be worse than the status quo. Personally, I got rid of the Norcold years ago but have no discomfort with the current outlets. I am also an electrical engineer by training - that and a dollar will get you a small coffee at McDonalds!
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I agree that they are UL approved, but now that I know what it looks like on the inside, they are not 'RT' approved if I can find a better method, which I may have. And as far as I currently know, I have not had a receptacle failure and certainly no smoke or fire. But anyone who has replaced a home receptacle with screws for the wiring connection and compared it to the super teeny-tiny contact points of a speedwire receptacle, well, there is no comparison. (I'm not recommending or suggesting using the wire quick insert-release, just the screws. Too much road vibration.) I doubt the RV industry uses them because it's a 'superior design' to residential versions; it's just a faster and cheaper slam-them-in-on-the-assembly-line design. Anyone using a space heater or an electric griddle can't be too excited about the design, but I suspect that most people have never pulled one and looked.
Here in California, one dollar gets you a small, medium or large coffee at McDonald's, probably the only deal I can think of compared to other states.
Thanks for your reply. -RT
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-27-2017, 05:36 PM
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#36
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Update:
I ordered a replacement breaker for my motorhome, which I installed today. It did NOT actually resolve my electrical issue, but maybe puts me a step closer. Previously, once I turned on the breaker, the generator would shut down. The breaker has never tripped in the 12 years I've owned this motorhome. After installing the new breaker, I started the generator and turned on the breaker... the breaker actually tripped but the generator did not shut down.
For anyone that MIGHT be interested in changing out the speedwire design receptacles, at Home Depot I found a product called Legrand Wiremold 1-Gang Non-Metallic Duplex Receptacle Box with Faceplate and Device. (Model # NMW2-D Internet #100544174 Store SKU #606641) It's a complete kit, available with a plastic or metal housing, in two different depths. It comes with the faceplate, receptacle (with screws for the wire connectors!) and a back plate. It looks like I would need to drill a hole through the plastic back-plate for the wiring to feed through but installation seems straight-forward. (Since the 110v wiring is already there, it's not like I would run a surface-mount channel for wiring, which is what Wiremold is actually for.) The only negative is that the kit will sit further out than the OEM installation but on my Winnebago/Itasca, it isn't like the receptacle is anything close to flush with the wall anyway, as Winnebago uses a wood trim plate to push out the speedwire receptacle. The OEM wood face-plate would no longer be necessary with the Legrand Wiremold kit.
Might not be a solution for others, but I bought two and might give it a try. -RT
Legrand Wiremold 1-Gang Non-Metallic Duplex Receptacle Box with Faceplate and Device-NMW2-D - The Home Depot
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Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-27-2017, 08:48 PM
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#37
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTegarini
Update:
I ordered a replacement breaker for my motorhome, which I installed today. It did NOT actually resolve my electrical issue, but maybe puts me a step closer. Previously, once I turned on the breaker, the generator would shut down. The breaker has never tripped in the 12 years I've owned this motorhome. After installing the new breaker, I started the generator and turned on the breaker... the breaker actually tripped but the generator did not shut down....
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That's actually a significant step. It indicates there's nothing wrong with the generator, rather the problem is somewhere downstream from that breaker. I would try to narrow it down a bit more by locating and disconnecting those connections under the bed and under the dinette. If you still have the problem after doing that then it lies between the breaker and those connections. If the problem goes away with those connections disconnected then the problem must be between them and the outlets.
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Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
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03-27-2017, 09:09 PM
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#38
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Winnebago Camper
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
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If the four outlets are on that circuit, you could disconnect the outgoing wire at each outlet one by one starting at the closest to the panel. If you go to plug one and disconnect the wire to plug two and turn on the breaker, does it trip. If not replace the wire and move to outlet two and repeat the process. This will help you narrow down where the short is if there is one. If it trips on the first plug, the short is between the breaker and the first plug. If you get to plug three and the breaker is not tripping, you have narrowed it down to the remaining plug. Just a thought.
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2000 coachmen santara 370 5.9 cummins300 hp isb
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03-27-2017, 10:41 PM
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#39
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Winnie-Wise
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winniman
If the four outlets are on that circuit, you could disconnect the outgoing wire at each outlet one by one starting at the closest to the panel. If you go to plug one and disconnect the wire to plug two and turn on the breaker, does it trip. If not replace the wire and move to outlet two and repeat the process. This will help you narrow down where the short is if there is one. If it trips on the first plug, the short is between the breaker and the first plug. If you get to plug three and the breaker is not tripping, you have narrowed it down to the remaining plug. Just a thought.
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I have disconnected the black wire from each of the four receptacles (but not the ground and neutral) but keep in mind that disconnecting from a speedwire receptacle is not the same as disconnecting from a residential receptacle. In a residential receptacle, disconnecting actually results in termination of any other receptacles down-leg, but on a speedwire receptacle, you are only pulling off the wire from its contact point, and the wire physically continues on to the next receptacle. The end result is nothing more than wires running from end to end, with no break or termination in-between.
Even though I have disconnected the black wire from them all, the electrical problem that was causing the generator to shut down still did. Today, I did put in a new breaker and now the breaker is actually doing it's job and tripping, leaving the generator to continue running. I may be a step closer to a resolution, but not there yet. Wednesday, I'm going to connect to shore power and sure hope I can come up with some answers. This has not been a fun adventure! -RT
__________________
Ricardo Tegarini
2005 Itasca Sunova
Workhorse Chassis W20
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03-28-2017, 09:49 AM
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#40
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Winnebago Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 1,817
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Now that the new breaker is tripping, I don't expect you'll learn anything new form shore power.
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Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
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