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Old 08-15-2014, 10:37 AM   #1
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Starting Problems

I'm having a problem starting my Journey 36LD, when I turn the ignition switch to start I hear a click below the dash, a click somewhere toward the back of the coach but no effort to start at all. No ticking/clicking from the starter or trying to turn over and no indication of low batteries, in fact my inside panel shows the chassis batteries to be 12.73V (higher when plugged into shore power and charging). When not plugged in and measured at each individual battery 12.73 and 12.72.
I tried pressing the booster switch to combine the house/chassis batteries at startup but same result.
The strange thing is, if I start the generator, wait for about one or two minutes then turn the ignition switch key again, the coach fires right up. Can this be bad batteries or? Not being electrically inclined I have no idea where solenoids or starter motor are located or what else to look for or to check. I tried following the Winnebago wiring diagrams on their web site but cant even see the ignition switch etc.
I'm lost, any help would be appreciated.
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:21 AM   #2
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The ignition switch will be in the chassis wiring diagrams , not the coach wiring diagrams. What chassis is your coach built on ? Year ? Engine ?
Do all the batteries check for good voltage, with the interconnect cables removed.
What set up for starting batteries do you have , 2 x 12v ?
House batteries , multiple 6v or 12v ?
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:59 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip426 View Post
The ignition switch will be in the chassis wiring diagrams , not the coach wiring diagrams. What chassis is your coach built on ? Year ? Engine ?
Do all the batteries check for good voltage, with the interconnect cables removed.
What set up for starting batteries do you have , 2 x 12v ?
House batteries , multiple 6v or 12v ?
Skip,
Pretty much the same exact questions I was going to ask too. Need more info on this before we can start to help you OP. My first thought was loose battery connections. A second thought was, a loose or bad main battery ground connection at the frame. Although, I'm not sure why running the generator for a couple of minutes would help. A third thought might be a bad battery cell or, one or more of the cells has what's called a "surface" charge. Meaning, it shows high voltage, as in what you're seeing in the meters but, when a load is applied, like trying to start the engine, the one or, if possible more than one cell, drops immediately to a very low voltage and therefore, you have a no-start condition.

Now, on another note, on my '04 Itasca Horizon, the solenoids and relays for the starting sequence, are in a very hard spot to get to. They are located in between the back side of the basement A/C unit and, the frame of the coach, in the right rear. Talk about a pain. Below are some pics of what "My" system looks like. Yours may be quite different but, it may be worth a looksee to determine if they're there. Good luck. The first few pics of the "before" when that entire system was in sad shape. The last one is when it was all taken apart, new components installed and re-assembled with new paint etc.
Scott




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Old 08-15-2014, 03:28 PM   #4
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We are going though a similar problem right now. When I turn the ignition switch to run, I wait till the glow plug light goes out, then go to start. I here clicking but the engine will not start. When I turn the ignition switch to accessory then to start, the engine starts.

I have taken it to the local freightliner service center. They found a bad wire splice and replaced the ICU. The engine started during their final service test, and started when I picked it up. 2 days later, it would not start.

It is going back to freightliner next week.
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:37 PM   #5
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Starting Problems

Skip/Fire UP
Thanks for your responses, I should have given more info:
Freightliner chassis, 2001 Journey, 330 Cat
Yes the batteries do check out ok when not interconnected
Starting batteries 2 - 12V (sealed) Interstate MDH31
House batteries 3 - 12V Crown Deep Cycle 31DC130
I did check around all of the batteries for loose cables and all seemed good.
I was trying to figure out why the coach would start after I started the generator and so this morning I went out and poked around the generator area while the DW turned on the ignition key. I heard a click and found a Trombetta 18226-3 Bear DC Contactor 12V Cont (new number 114-1211-010-03), gave it a rap with my screwdriver handle as DW turned the ignition key and the coach fired up. I checked the larger cable connections and they were tight and then the two smaller wires on top of this Contactor and made sure they were tight. The coach now starts without the generator running. Could this Contactor have been sticking (or the wires loose) and jarred into action by the generator running?.
Maybe this is the cause of my problems so I will monitor it and if necessary replace it if I can find one locally.
Does this sound logical at this point?.
Thank you both for your responses, I hope we have found the answer, if you think of anything else I should check let me know.
Thanks
John
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outbumn View Post
We are going though a similar problem right now. When I turn the ignition switch to run, I wait till the glow plug light goes out, then go to start. I here clicking but the engine will not start. When I turn the ignition switch to accessory then to start, the engine starts.

I have taken it to the local freightliner service center. They found a bad wire splice and replaced the ICU. The engine started during their final service test, and started when I picked it up. 2 days later, it would not start.

It is going back to freightliner next week.
Outbumn,
Unless things have changed in your 2011 from previous years, you DON'T HAVE GLOW PLUGS. You have an "Intake heater" that needs to heat up, prior to engine turn-over. Just some info here.
Scott
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:00 AM   #7
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John, your logic , is correct ; JMHO. don't wait for the part to act up again, track down a replacement ; even if you don't install it right away, you'll have it handy for the time when tapping it doesn't work.

For more information on your chassis wiring ; diagrams and schematics.
Contact Freightliner, have your serial number handy, and sign up for " Access Freightliner " takes a while but you get online access to , parts and wiring info for your chassis.

1-800-385-4357
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:03 AM   #8
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Ron, Outbumn;
Is your ignition switch , dash mounted , or in the steering column ?
If in the steering column , does changing the tilt position , make any difference to the no crank condition ?
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Old 08-16-2014, 01:19 PM   #9
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Did you remember to select neutral on the shiftpad.... I sometime turn my engine off when I am still in gear. An attempt to restart results in a click... the shift pad will display a single N..select neutral and the pad will show NN and everything works!.
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Old 08-16-2014, 03:23 PM   #10
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We had similar problem with our 2004 Vectra. Turn the key half the time nothing but dash lights. starter didn't respond. turn key off and on a couple times and it started. It got worse so I decided to pull all the fuses and relays in the compartment bay under the driver side on the outside. I pulled each one and cleaned the contacts. A few had some corrosion and I noticed several that were labeled for starting. After this I never had the problem again. Happy to have a super simple fix. Easy to try it.

Oh, by the way, the wipers work better now too. They use to freeze up once in a while now they don't. That fuse had a bit of corrosion on it too.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:34 PM   #11
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John, your logic , is correct ; JMHO. don't wait for the part to act up again, track down a replacement ; even if you don't install it right away, you'll have it handy for the time when tapping it doesn't work.

For more information on your chassis wiring ; diagrams and schematics.
Contact Freightliner, have your serial number handy, and sign up for " Access Freightliner " takes a while but you get online access to , parts and wiring info for your chassis.

1-800-385-4357[/QUOTE]

Yes I will do that for sure, also, I'm going to get the chassis batteries tested next week to double check that they are not the problem. The process of elimination is slow when you are as electrically challenged as I am
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Old 09-07-2014, 04:51 PM   #12
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New Chassis batteries installed

First, let me thank you all for your comments and advice, I havn't been able to get to the MH until yesterday at which time I installed new chassis batteries and carried out a few preliminary tests. You have to remember I am electrically challenged and having blown the main board of my convection microwave (that cost me $575.00) I am cautious about where I poke my meter prongs.
I made a drawing of what I see behind the panel at the front of the MH and have attached it below (hope it works) the sketch also shows the notes I made.
I guess my questions are:
- does power at terminal 3 when I turn the ignition key mean that the trombetta solenoid is good?
- should I be getting power at any other terminals besides 1,2,3,5 & 6 when the key is turned to the on position?
- the Winnebago 01-P Series wiring diagram auto shows a "starter", is this the engine starter or the ignition switch?.
- I still don't get why the generator starting affects the ignition system.
- could the coach starting after waggling the key in the ignition as I turned it to the start position be a coincidence?.

I admit I am lost and if you guys have no suggestions I will bite the bullet and take her in when I get the opportunity...just hate paying for something that may be a simple fix.
thanks in advance
John

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Old 09-07-2014, 06:47 PM   #13
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Ok, I can't keep your drawing up and type at the same time so this is from memory.
The gen set running , may just be providing an extra bit of juice ( 12v power ) to over come a bad contact in the ignition switch, jiggling the key is probably doing the same thing.
If your ignition switch is like mine , dash mounted , rectangular key , it is an automotive part ( Mid 70's GM pick up ). Replacement switches available at every auto parts store. $8>12 . The attached harness ,( multiple connector ) is prone to damage from over heating and should be examined closely, a connector with 6" of wiring that would require soldering into the existing harness , is also available .
If you do have this type of ignition switch and would like info on removing the lock tumblers, so you can drop the switch out of the dash. I can post a link to a U tube video.
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Old 09-07-2014, 06:56 PM   #14
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I don't know if your coach is equipper with this system . But from your drawings it might be.
See if you can locate this controller and maybe the wiring diagrams will help if you do have it.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BIRD.pdf (105.0 KB, 60 views)
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:45 PM   #15
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relay

Skip
From my research I dont think the Intellitec relay is Bi Directional but just a disconnect relay.
My ignition switch is dash mounted with the rectangular key you describe and I would appreciate if you could send me that youtube link.
I'm willing to try anything, I do hope it is the ignition switch, tough to get at but easier than the Trombetta solenoid for sure.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:38 AM   #16
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The Trombetta solenoid , shouldn't be involved in engine start up.
Here's the link , don't forget to disconnect the chassis batteries before you start.


If you have the switch in hand , Napa or AutoZone , will be able to get you the replacement.

EDIT : and of course the link won't work . I'll be back.

Re-edit, another attempt at the link.



If the link to the video won't work, then try.

http://outintheshop.com/faq/Ignition/switch.html
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:45 AM   #17
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Thanks for the link Skip, it worked fine. I will try to remove the ignition when I next go over to the MH.
I assume I don't remove the ignition tumblers before I remove the assembly from the dash, just disconnect the wiring assembly on the rear and then unscrew the whole switch and take the tumblers out later.
Good to hear that the Trombetta solenoid doesn't figure in the engine startup, I couldn't figure how it did, other than when the MOM switch is pressed to link the chassis and house batteries. I assume that if I change the ignition switch and I still have the no start problem, then the next item to check would be the starter and its solenoid, wherever they are located?.
I have searched everywhere trying to find a complete schematic which shows the ignition/starting process and it's components for my specific coach, on ONE drawing.

If you can think of anything else I might check let me know. Thanks.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:16 AM   #18
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Skip, I just found something you said in a previous post last year,

"For the starter solenoid. battery-ignition switch- starter relay- starter solenoid."

That explains the process a bit more clearly for me, if the ignition switch proves to be ok I guess my next move is to find the starter relay then the starter solenoid.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:28 AM   #19
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The ignition lock ( tumblers ) must be removed before the mount bezel will screw off.

The starter relay , on my coach is on a plate mounted to the pass side, frame rail between the batteries and the starter; the solenoid is on the starter it's self.

Relay is on the left in the top picture( not as clean as Fire Up's ), but better since I had to replace, relay after this picture was taken, other items are 135amp fuses to protect the cables that run to the front of the coach.
PDF file is info from freightliner on the relay. Note , your coach being a different year this might not be good P/N so caution, any doubt call Freightliner, with your serial number.
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:10 PM   #20
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Update

I finally got over to the storage facility to try to solve this problem and did receive the following wiring diagram from freightliner.
D06-35775.pdf
I removed the ignition switch and took it to an auto electric co and they advised the switch is fine.
I removed all connections from the remote starter solenoid and cleaned them and reinstalled.
I took the chassis batteries home, made sure they were fully charged and reinstalled.
I measured voltage at the remote starter solenoid as follows prior to recharging the batteries:
At large stud - key off 12.6
At Large stud - key on 12.3
At ignition stud when key turned to start - 10.98 (unit did start one time when this voltage climbed to 10.99)
My conclusion so far: starter seems ok, starter solenoid is probably ok and the low voltage measured at the solenoid ignition stud is the problem.
I have a voltage drop somewhere it seems. I have tried following the attached wiring diagram but can't figure out whats between the ignition key and the starter solenoid other than the neutral safety or where any of these items might be located. None of the relays under the front cab above the generator are labelled and I havnt a clue where the neutral start item may be.
Any help would be appreciated.
John
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