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Old 05-18-2019, 10:33 AM   #21
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We just finished 3-days dry camping, which was long for us, we usually stay in parks with power available. Living in Texas you learn to expect hot weather any time of year.

We have 4-100AH 12v group 31 deep cycle (NAPA Commercial) batteries. We have 300 watts of solar, a Magnum 2000w PSW inverter and have installed a Battery Monitor Kit and Victron SmartSolar charger.

We have a full-size residential fridge and it was cold where we camped so we used the propane heater on the RV every night.

We found we needed to run the 5500 watt generator approximately a maximum of 2-hours in the morning and another 2-hours at night. Also since it was cold at night we experimented with turning off the inverter when we went to bed. This worked great as the fridge stayed cold all night and we’d only need an hour of morning generator time to get back up to between 98% and 100% battery charge.

If we were at 98% SOC by 10 am the solar would get us to 100% and keep us there all day with the fridge running and some normal 12-volt usage.

We had mostly sunny days but did have trees all around us.

With a few hours of generator usage long term camping would not be an issue other than our water, Black and grey tanks. Not sure what 3-days of rain would do but I’m sure that would require much more genset usage.

I would say that installing the Battery Monitor was a must have piece of equipment. If I had to trust the voltage meter that came on the RV it would be impossible to accurately gauge our SOC.

We stayed between 89% and 100% SOC pretty much all the time. One morning we awoke after a particularly cold night to a 76% SOC after running the inverter and fridge and propane heater fan all night. It took 90 mins of generator time to get back to 99% SOC. We left the RV for an hour and when we returned we were at 100% SOC from our solar power.
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:03 PM   #22
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Generator: How long runtime

I have the old 3 stage charger so I would say to you: Run the generator all day long even if the "green" light is on and enjoy the AC, Microwave and electric heaters or whatever. Then at night be conservative of everything electric.


If you are lucky enough to have a 5 stage charger then you are much better off. Still, lead acid batteries are what they are and they wear out regularly - like 3 to 7 years - so plan on it. Never, ever, forget to check battery fluid level and never, ever over fill to buy yourself time. Use baking soda in a wet rag to dust the top of the batteries then dry. All terminals should have the yucky red stuff on the terminals to avoid the dreaded "green foam".


Boondocking is not free: if you wish to have a 21st century lifestyle and diesel is expensive but if you wish to have the best of the best then get lots of solar panels and lithium batteries to match your remote lifestyle.
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:12 PM   #23
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Can you provide the make/model of some five stage battery chargers for deep cycle batteries?
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:14 AM   #24
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Promariner 5 Stage Charger

The following is an example of a 5 stage charger that I used on my 43' sailboat. These chargers are such that they can be paralleled for more AH charging. I used one and was going to add another when I found one was sufficient. It was set up to charge Bank 1 and Bank 2 and Windlass Bank (you can charge 3 seperate banks). If you need more banks add another unit. As I recall I paid about $450 originally but I did not buy it from Overton.



https://www.overtons.com/promariner-...hoCyx8QAvD_BwE


Another example, and I see they now call it a 4 stage charger ( they used to call it a 5 stage because of some "float" mode). I do not know if it works for Lithium but I suspect it does.


https://www.amazon.com/ProMariner-63.../dp/B004NPL926
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:42 PM   #25
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Getting back to the original question...




How many hours do you go between generator starts when you are boondocking?

There has been some good discussion here about this.


Here's how I boil it down. An analogous question would be...


How many minutes a day do you refill your water tank with a hose?


Without knowing the empty volume in the tank and the flow rate of the hose, it's shooting in the dark, You need a battery monitor, just like you need a level gauge.
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Old 06-15-2019, 02:24 PM   #26
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A new twist - replace your ignition switch???

For the last 3 years I have not been that happy with the amount of time between generator starts when I am boondocking. ...And then I replaced my Freightliner ignition switch (same as GM I think).

I am now able to boondock all day without starting my generator; and there has been no change in how I use/conserve my power.

For disclosure, I do have a 17.5 cu-ft residential refrigerator, 4-GC2 Golf Cart batteries (440AH); and 4-100W solar panels on the roof. But nothing is different about that.

I started this post, because I truly felt my refrigerator was sucking the amp-hours right out of my battery bank at a faster rate than what was spec'd, which is 1A-AC when running, and 3A when starting up the compressor. I also stopped opening the refrigerator door as often and kept the lights off in the coach too.

I even considered how I parked the RV (sun blasting on the refrigerator outer wall) or not. And at one point I replaced my 2 coach solenoids thinking they could be leaking current to ground, which they were. But I was still turning on my generator more often than I thought I should, because I have owned 3 other RVs in the past and this one seemed to be using the most power.

THEN... I found my ignition switch was leaking current to ground too! ...And while I know that was putting a drain on my engine battery bank, I can't figure out why replacing my ignition switch would have any affect on my house battery useful life between generator starts (at 11.9V typically).

After I replaced the ignition switch, I am now able to go all day without starting my generator (the subject of this post); and I am also getting better engine performance (probably because the ECM likes the more stable current supply); and my engine battery is not drained as much when I leave it parked in storage for 4-6 months.

I have 90,000 miles on my rig.

Can anyone explain what 12V lines are "ON" all the time in a RV?

I only know of only these:

* The ignition switch
* 2 solenoids (Battery Disconnect & Boost Solenoid)
* And the alternator "hot" wire that is protected by diodes, which can go bad and can sink current to ground.

...But what mysterious device is involved that would cause the ignition switch to somehow draw current from the house battery?

I have a Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR) hooked up between my engine and house batteries, so maybe that device is not turning off (isolating) when the engine battery drops below 13.6V?

Can it be something else?
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Old 06-15-2019, 05:32 PM   #27
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As long as your "boost" solenoid and the solenoid which connects the house and chassis batteries together while driving, are not set in the position to connect batteries together then, there should be nothing in the chassis to drain the house battery. Unless you have a trickle charger to keep the chassis battery charged, that could drain the house battery. However I don't think Winnie installed the Trickle Charger as standard equipment until 2006.

An aside note. It sounds like you are dry camping/boondocking w/o having a battery monitor such as a Trimetric. With the battery monitor, you know instantly (well at least the next time you look at the remote display) that something is discharging your house batteries more than normal. Additionally when trouble shooting, you know as soon as you disconnect or turn off whatever, that is the device which is causing the problem.

I would never dry camp more than just a couple days in an RV that did not have a battery monitor. You just don't know the true state of your batteries or discharge rate.
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Old 06-16-2019, 12:31 AM   #28
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Tri-metic Monitor?

I believe Winnebago installed a "BIRD" charging device in late 2004, but my coach does not have one as my coach was delivered in early 2004.

The purpose of the BIRD (relay) is so the alternator can charge the house batteries; and I know these devices can fail or cause current leakage problems. So if you have one, then this deserves inspection just as much as your boost solenoid and house cutoff solenoid.

I do not have a Tri-metic Monitor and I'm not sure if I can just add one to my older inverter/charger system easily. Can I?

Here's a website link I found that explains what a Tri-metric Monitor does, but I'm a little confused: Is this a type of device that improves the 3 stage charger I currently use? And how easy is it to install?

...At the moment I'm not sure where I would mount the display head and it looks really "old fashion." But I suppose anytime you hook something to your battery bank it has to be very well tested and industrial looking????

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bogart-TriM...cAAOSw7XBY8UHn

Please explain how you use it and why many of us owners with older coaches and charging systems would benefit from having a Tri-metric device? Thank you.
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Old 06-16-2019, 05:17 AM   #29
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Battery Management

The Trimetric from Bogart Engineering is one of the "old fashioned" looking battery monitors. Victron makes a BMS-712 which "looks" more up to date but more importantly it has Bluetooth connectivity. this means you can monitor your State Of Charge from your cell phone and mount the 712 out of the way.


These type of battery monitors use a shunt which is basically a resistor, very precision resistor, with a four wire or Kelvin connector. The loads to the negative battery post (most negative) which goes to chassis ground attach at one end, then the other end goes back to the neg battery post. Current flow is then measured in tiny voltage which flows between the small posts of the shunt. This tiny voltage is then amplified with an analog to digital amplifier and with some electronics fed to the "monitor" panel where different algorithms measure this tiny voltage flow and convert that to amps in and out, SOC etc. The shunt monitors are preferred because the precision resistor has no zero offset, doesn't drift and generally can provide a better estimate of battery usage.


There are several less expensive little monitors around which use the Hall effect to measure the battery current flow. That is basically induction which does have zero offset and drifts over time as well as sense residual voltage etc. which makes them far less accurate over time. Still they provide an estimate which is what all BMS do.


One example of a very accurate Hall effect current measurement device is a Fluke clamp meter. The clamp is simply a Hall effect sensor. For short term measurements they are extremely accurate because Fluke puts a lot of things inside the package to make it so. Hall effect monitors are simply a coil surrounding the current containing wires which makes them imperative in some applications for measurements where contact is dangerous and prohibited.


From the little $39 monitors to the Victron 712, whichever you choose, you will have a better idea of the condition of your batteries, take a lot of guess work out of the equation and know better when you need to run the generator. Along with that information you might look at the charge rates for typical lead acid batteries, several on the internet - Google it. Most people are shocked to see how long it really takes to get lead acid batteries back to 100% charge. Along with that note on those charts the "state" the converter/charger is in.



Chargers are usually designed to charge in Bulk rate mode for only 70-80% of the recharge. That keeps heat down and the last 20-30% charge has to be pushed into the battery at a normally higher voltage and lower amps for a much longer time - depending on the design of your charger. It can take more than three days to fully recharge a very low battery. Much less time if you have only taken the battery down to 50% SOC.


Of course if you have a continuous running load applied it becomes even more challenging to fully recharge the battery. Most of the time those with a residential refrigerator NEVER really can get back to 100% SOC. With enough charge time whether converter/charger or solar you can get pretty close. Those recharge tables "assume" there is zero load being applied to the battery under charge.


The BMS, whichever flavor you choose, does absolutely nothing to improve charge rates, charge times etc. It simply allows you to have a very educated guess and more accurate information about your batteries. They are priceless for folks who really dry camp frequently to monitor the health of the battery bank.
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Old 06-16-2019, 10:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
I believe Winnebago installed a "BIRD" charging device in late 2004, but my coach does not have one as my coach was delivered in early 2004.

The purpose of the BIRD (relay) is so the alternator can charge the house batteries; and I know these devices can fail or cause current leakage problems. So if you have one, then this deserves inspection just as much as your boost solenoid and house cutoff solenoid.

I do not have a Tri-metic Monitor and I'm not sure if I can just add one to my older inverter/charger system easily. Can I?

Here's a website link I found that explains what a Tri-metric Monitor does, but I'm a little confused: Is this a type of device that improves the 3 stage charger I currently use? And how easy is it to install?

...At the moment I'm not sure where I would mount the display head and it looks really "old fashion." But I suppose anytime you hook something to your battery bank it has to be very well tested and industrial looking????

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bogart-TriM...cAAOSw7XBY8UHn

Please explain how you use it and why many of us owners with older coaches and charging systems would benefit from having a Tri-metric device? Thank you.
A battery monitor, such as Tri-Metric or Victor can be easily installed on any RV. The installation is straight forward.

To install either the Victron or Trimetric, you mount the shunt (see the install instructions below for a pic of the shunt) near your house battery pack.
-- Next you remove all negative wires going to the battery and install them on the "house" side of the shunt.
-- Then you connect a cable from the battery side of the shunt to the negative post of your battery pack.
-- The cable from the negative post to the shunt needs to be the same size or one size larger than the existing cable that is on the negative post of the battery pack before you start the installation. For a pre-made cable of the size and length you need, go to Amazon.com and do a search for "battery cable 1/0 gauge". Change the "1/0" to the size of the cable currently in the RV. There are other sources for the cable, but this is the easiest to find.

Now that the shunt is installed, you need to wire in the remote monitor

Here is a link to the installation instructions for a Trimetric: http://www.bogartengineering.com/wp-...2=false&r=wide

Why you want a battery monitor, such as Trimetric or Victron, or others?

Without a monitor which shows the AH's (Amp Hours) that have been used or put back in your battery, you are flying blind.
-- In addition to the AH used or put back in, the monitor shows the number of amps going in (plus amps) or the amps going out (minus amps). You not only can see what any device uses, such as a TV operating through an inverter, or what the light bulbs are using, or how many amps your gas forced air furnace, or etc, etc.
-- Two very important uses, that I have found, for the amp display is: 1) when I think I have everything turned off a quick glance at the display will show if everything is truly off or did I accidental leave something on. 2) I can know exactly how many amps any device is using or will be using. So if I am running low on the number of AH's left in the battery, I can decide not to use the device or decide to run the generator to get some power back in the battery.

The AH display is important, not only so you know if you are approaching the lower SOC of the battery, i.e. being sure not to exceed the 50% discharge level, but most importantly if or when you got your batteries back to 100% charged. The last 5% to 10% of charge takes a few to a large number of hours to complete, depending on your charging system setup.

The voltage display lets you know what the current battery voltage is, how much of a voltage sag (with lead acid batteries the voltage drops considerably when high amps are pulled from the battery), such as when you use a high power device like coffee maker. AND when charging you know if the voltage is up to 14.5-14.8 volts needed to get a quick and efficient charge into the batteries.

A note about "BMS". A BMS (Battery Monitor System) is a system which monitors, not only the battery voltage, but the battery temperature and if the battery is being over charged or excessively discharged. The BMS will disconnect the battery from the RV if any of the battery cells are out of spec. Typically you only see a BMS when using lithium batteries.

The Trimetric or Victron is just a battery monitor (BM). It doesn't disconnect anything or prevent the battery from any miss use.
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Old 06-16-2019, 10:49 AM   #31
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About charging your batteries, even if there is a minor load, such as an elect fridge.

As long as your charging source is putting out more amps than what is being used by a fridge and the RV, the batteries will be charging. Also when the fridge compressor is not running the power usage by the fridge is minimal. So you will be putting a good amount of amps into the batteries.

Many people with compressor fridges will run their generator for an hour or so in the morning to put 40% to 70% of the needed charge back in the batteries and then let the solar take over for the next 8-10 hours.

It is important to note that as soon as strong light is hitting your solar panels you will see some power coming from them. It may only be 2 amps, or if you have 650 watts of solar like I do, I will see 5-6 amps coming in at 7-8am (in the summer) when the sun first hits the panels. Same in the afternoon at 5-7pm.

While this small number of amps may not be charging the batteries, they are reducing the number of amps being discharged.

Even if you don't have a huge solar array running the generator to kick start the charging process it goes a really long way in getting the batteries to 100% or at least to 95%.

The most important key here IMO is the battery monitor, so you KNOW at any moment what is happening. Are your batteries being charged, and how much. Are you approaching your 50% usage, and are you getting to 100% or if not, how close are you getting.

There are hundreds of RV'ers with residential fridges who dry camp/boondock for long periods of time and are able to manage their batteries just fine.

To say it is overly difficult to do is incorrect.
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Old 06-16-2019, 02:45 PM   #32
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Below is a link, pretty much specific to the battery charging and the things NOT to do and many of the important things to be sure are being designed for.

What causes lots of problems with people experiencing problems with their batteries not charging or running out of power earlier than they should is covered in the link.

Try to skim over his long wordiness and very strong opinions, and focus on the key items.
-- Charging voltage. Must me measured at the battery when max power is coming from the charging source. That is solar panels, charger, or engine alternator. Measuring charging voltage when low amps doesn't account for voltage loss when high current is going down too small of wire size.
-- Proper wire size and wire length
-- Monitoring & knowing your usage
-- etc.

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/...ging-puzzle-2/
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:50 PM   #33
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Al,


You missed a few points a BMS is a battery management system used in lithium and EV, electric vehicles. They get extremely complex in design. None of that has very much to do with a Battery Monitor system. Just semantics. And...of course I dispute the flat statement that any RV can boondock with a residential refrigerator. It depends. As we both know with enough money and effort yes, it can be done. That's a big caveat. Of course anyone with a generator can just run it, in most cases with a very small roof the solar is just good enough to keep the batteries charged while parked with the refrigerator off - they do help limit the amount of generator time with good sun and solar conditions. We are all facing the simple fact that most RVs, large or small, are now shipping with compressor refrigerators of some kind - some of us are dealing with it. I'm pretty satisfied now that I have worked out the major kinks. Oh yeah, there is some discussion to be had about how solar charge appears. Loads are positive and charge is negative, as seen with the Fluke with the exception that my solar charge shows positive in either direction of the Hall sensor. The Battery Monitor System can change that based on algorithms applied. Charge from the alternator or the charger always shows negative current flow at the negative battery post ground leads.


If you are referring to my "very strong opinions" where and what? All I did is explain the two common types of Battery Monitor systems? I also elucidated the benefits of having one in place when dry camping.


The simple fact is my biggest problem was getting the converter to go into BULK mode with the generator running because the solar controller was putting a voltage and very low charge on the batteries in bad solar conditions. I added the remote pendant to the converter so now I can force it into BULK charge mode. I also added shutoffs, switchable circuit breakers, to each ground lead of the solar controller - that's a utility feature mostly for working on the batteries. That's my RV, not other designs or solar controllers or chargers, just how mine was working.


Most of the time I simply disconnect the solar system when a generator run is necessary now, for whatever reason MY charger is more capable without the solar operational at all. Tonight when the controller turned off I ran the converter for two hours and yes, the battery was 100% - for about 1 minute until the next compressor cycle began. By definition it was then no longer at "100%", it lost some charge and that's all my statement meant. The recharge cycle was completed like this. 8:00 AM converter on for two hours in Bulk charge and solar off, 10:00AM Converter OFF - solar controller on until 6:00PM, Turned off solar and converter ON in Bulk for two hours - 100% charged - for a minute.


So now that I have the fix, yes, I'm pretty happy with the compressor refrigerator. The thing works great and I know how to manage my particular situation which others with the same rig may have or not. There are three known versions of the same model fridge in the wild.


During decent bright sun today the controller harvested 66.5 amp hours parked in full sun. I've seen as much as 88 AH and as little as 20AH, it all depends.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:56 AM   #34
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Bill,
I did want to be sure that folks who don't have a lot of experience with a Battery Monitor (BM) or a Battery Monitor System, understand that the Monitor, be it Trimetric or Victron or any other monitor is not a management system. It may be semantic, but I feel it is important to know the difference.

About solar and charging systems in RV's. There are so many poor installations and poor designs, it is no wonder so many people complain they can't go more than xx hours or xx days w/o hooking up to shore power.

Your experience with your View is a prime example. It took a very long time to figure out that one problem is that your converter would not do a good job of charging unless you got a remote where you could force it into a higher charge rate. And I believe you have found other issues that needed to be tweaked as well.

Another short coming, at least in my opinion is (if I remember correctly) your solar controller is mounted up near the ceiling and then there is quite a number of feet between the controller and the batteries. That controller really should be moved to within 2-3 feet of the batteries. Especially if you were to add a 3rd solar panel. The voltage drop, while some may consider loosing a half a volt in the wiring from the controller to the battery, to be minor, I don't. Considering that Trojan specs say to charge their batteries at about 14.7-14.8V and you loose even 0.3V to 0.5V that brings the charging voltage way below the optimum charging specs. It is also very important to know that the voltage loss MUST be measured at max current flow. The voltage loss just won't be there at a small current flow.

This solar controller example is just one of the poor designs which are overlooked when anyone is having problems keeping their batteries charged.

Back to the need to manually change your converter to quickly charge your batteries. IF there was a good battery monitor installed from the factory or after market, it probably would have been quickly evident that the converter was not charging as well as it should.

I know I keep harping on needing a good battery monitor, but anyone dry camping or boondocking really needs to have a way to "always" know at a glance at the monitor display exactly what is happening with their charging system and the discharge status of their system.
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Old 06-17-2019, 09:36 AM   #35
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Thanks Al,


It appears we are really agreeing on everything. I also agree that WGO should have gone one size larger in the wiring from the solar controller to the batteries. That turns into a significant voltage drop in some values of current/voltage at 25 feet. Like you I was really happy/surprised they at least went 8ga. It comes down to how much work I want to do to make it better really. With the hole already in the roof for the OEM entry it is a shame to move the whole works forward and nearer the batteries or to pull a new larger wire run.


I think overall correcting the poor design is more difficult than starting from scratch and doing it right but that is frequently the way we must deal with our RVs to tweak them into fitting our individual needs. When I redo the solar I will go with 24volt panels not 12 and use the MPPT controller to down rate and charge. That way I can run the feed at higher voltage - maybe 36v to the new controller mounted near the front, which will be a far better and more efficient design. Keep the output leads at 12 volt much shorter, like 2 or 3 feet and I will keep the charge voltage high enough to push those amps into the batteries. And...yeah, it certainly does make a difference between being successful with solar and unhappy. If I'm gonna spend the time and money and effort - I really want it to produce better results. In reality we all wish the manufacturers would consider these simple things but that's life, they make a product - we tweak it.
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Old 10-27-2019, 01:17 AM   #36
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Reminder - add water often to your house batteries

I was surprised how fast my house batteries needed a drink!

This was the longest time I spent on the road traveling place-to-place; and in just 3 weeks time I added tons of water to my very dry battery bank (4-GC2-6V).

Yes it was HOT!

No I did not consider outdoor temperatures!

And I wasn't thinking battery maintenance since I filled my battery cells up before "hitting the highway" too!

3 weeks later they were dry as a bone!

AGMs are sealed and sometimes I think they are worth the money. However, you can make filing your batteries easier if you construct a cap with a hose running out of it.. so you can reach those hard to get to battery cells in the back!

THIS IS JUST A REMINDER TO CHECK YOUR BATTERY WATER OFTEN... ESPECIALLY IN THE SUMMER... AND EVEN MORE OFTEN ON THE HOT HIGHWAY ROADS!
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Generator Hours amanda_h Electrical | Charging, Solar and Electronics 8 12-03-2007 11:35 AM

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