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Old 02-13-2005, 04:51 AM   #1
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I posted this in the OEM Expert forum but given it is Sunday responses will be slow. If we have an electrical guru around I'd love some advice.

Thanks

Don

---------------------
I bought a VECTOR 2-6-10 Smart Automatic Battery Charger yesterday. $39.99 at Walmart.

I connected it to the coach Trojan that boiled over. The Vector has fault indicators that are to indicate "

1. internal shorted cell battery (replace battery)

3a. internal open cell (replace battery)

3b. sulfated condition (recondition or replace)

What surprised me is that I did not get any of these fault indications. The battery started charging at 10.4 amps and over a day worked down to full charge and then float (2 amps).

When I disconnected the charger it read 13.7. About 10 minutes later voltage was 13.4 and a half hour later (now) it is down to 13V. Clearly the battery is shot (have an appt with Trojan dealer on Tuesday to have all 3 examined).

Now, I want to next hook up the Charger to the automotive batteries (2 of them) and the instructions say if the batteries are in the vehicle and the ground is off the negative (is it in this case?) then the positive from the charger should be connected to the positive post of the battery and the negative should be connected to heavry gauge metal of the frame or engine block.

Well, now I'm in territory that I don't understand. The coach batteries are grounded and the cables coming into the battery compartment for the vehicle batteries could choke a horse. Coach battery connects aren't as bad.

So, where the devil should I be connecting the negative. Is there a danger if it is connected to something that is connected to other grounds.

I could use some help on this one soon.

Thanks

Don
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Old 02-13-2005, 04:51 AM   #2
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I posted this in the OEM Expert forum but given it is Sunday responses will be slow. If we have an electrical guru around I'd love some advice.

Thanks

Don

---------------------
I bought a VECTOR 2-6-10 Smart Automatic Battery Charger yesterday. $39.99 at Walmart.

I connected it to the coach Trojan that boiled over. The Vector has fault indicators that are to indicate "

1. internal shorted cell battery (replace battery)

3a. internal open cell (replace battery)

3b. sulfated condition (recondition or replace)

What surprised me is that I did not get any of these fault indications. The battery started charging at 10.4 amps and over a day worked down to full charge and then float (2 amps).

When I disconnected the charger it read 13.7. About 10 minutes later voltage was 13.4 and a half hour later (now) it is down to 13V. Clearly the battery is shot (have an appt with Trojan dealer on Tuesday to have all 3 examined).

Now, I want to next hook up the Charger to the automotive batteries (2 of them) and the instructions say if the batteries are in the vehicle and the ground is off the negative (is it in this case?) then the positive from the charger should be connected to the positive post of the battery and the negative should be connected to heavry gauge metal of the frame or engine block.

Well, now I'm in territory that I don't understand. The coach batteries are grounded and the cables coming into the battery compartment for the vehicle batteries could choke a horse. Coach battery connects aren't as bad.

So, where the devil should I be connecting the negative. Is there a danger if it is connected to something that is connected to other grounds.

I could use some help on this one soon.

Thanks

Don
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Old 02-13-2005, 05:18 AM   #3
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Don,

All the DC grounds are common. Connect the negative to any ground, even where you connected to the coach battery ground should be OK. Many folks have mentioned connecting a single jumper from the coach battery positive to the chassis battery positive to get some charge in the chassis batteries while plugged in. This wouldn't work if the grounds (negative) were not common.

Take a look at this Winnie diagram - click here
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Old 02-13-2005, 07:12 AM   #4
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Thanks Tom

Brett Wolfe had suggested connecting a single jumper from the coach battery to the chassis battery and I did that this past week and it seemed to work well. Then, Saturday I decided to go for the separate charger because of all the other info it claimed it supplied.

My chassis batteries are down to 12.3 now (I've learned to keep the radio on the main power switch when not in use. Looks like I've got another glitch in that the radio only works with it is in AUX mode. I think they forgot to reconnect something when they were replacing the antenna.) so I'm going to try the new charger on them.

Don
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:44 AM   #5
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Don,

Be sure to post anything you find out back here. I'm concerned with my batteries too, mostly the chassis batteries though. I drove it for about 45 minutes this morning and this afternoon my chassis batteries are already down to 12.2.

As you probably know, 12.7 is considered 100% charged so I'm not too surprised your coach batteries dropped down the way they did. Maybe you were reading what's called "surface charge". What happens when they get to 12.7? Do they continue to drop or hold there until some actual load takes them on down?
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:19 AM   #6
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BTW, Don, I've been meaning to thank you for all the work you did on the Allison warranty. I was in on the beginning of that, but about the time you starting making progress, our world got turned upside down by hurricane Charley. Nothing else mattered much for a few months after that...

I was reading one of the old threads a couple of days ago and was thrilled to see that I now have 5 years regardless of the fluid used.

Please accept my belated, but immense thanks. Don't know how many of us have an '03 Allison bought in '04, but you sure did us a favor.
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Old 02-13-2005, 01:09 PM   #7
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Thanks Tom. I felt the move by Allison was very unfair and also unintended. Once the ramifications became clear to Allison and FTL I started making good headway - thanks to Bryan Funke at Winnie who I've found to be very helpful (including my battery problem).

The charger is working find. The chassis batteries are now up at 13.3 and the unit should go into float mode shortly. I'll disconnect at that point and see if it settles down to 12.7 quickly.

Thanks for the reminder of the 12.7. I just went out and checked and that coach battery is at 12.68. I may reconnect it to the other two tomorrow and see what happens. When I put it back on line last time the 3 of them started showing less than 11 so I aborted the effort. If it isn't shot, I'll be happy. I'm not one who likes to see waste and I'd rather have all 3 working than have to get three new ones at Trojan's expense (they said if the one is bad they will replace all three).

Don
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Old 02-15-2005, 09:42 AM   #8
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Tom, battery has held up fine at 12.7. I put it back in with the other two and it seems to beoperating properly. I didn't have an hydrometer with me (left it at home - glass and fragile) so I went out and bought one this morning. All cells in the battery were OK - as were the other two - all were over 1.275 and in an acceptable narrow range. (which surprised me)

I was suppposed to take them to the Trojan dealer in Clearwater today. I was starting to get the feeling that I've ducked the bullet and they are still OK. Yesterday I started thinking about the best way to put on a big load to determine if they will wilt because one or all three are actually shot. I decided to turn off the 50 amp power, turn on the inverter and run the microwave for 30 seconds. I called my tech contact at Trojan and informed him what I did. He had me do it again - said I had to watch the voltage before the test started, then check how low it would drop (not that key) and finally see where it would come back to in a few minutes. Well, it dropped to 11.7 during the test and came back to 12.6 to 12.7 fairly quickly and when I turned on the charger it got it up higher and into float mode in short order.

It would seem that the Charger I bought has done the job of reconditioning the battery. This time when I put the 3rd battery into service it was fully charged - as were the other two. The first time it was low and just pulled power off the other two.

Some interesting points. I mentioned running a wire from the coach positive to the vehicle positive - the Tech adviced against it. Different kind of batteries and in his view not appropriate. So, I'd do that in a pinch only.

He also suggested not leaving the MH sit unused with the power on. He suggested connecting the power every few weeks or month to let the batteries charge up. That is what I'm going to do in the future.

I will also make sure the chassis battery is disconnected and will charge it periodically with the coach batteries.

I did have to add a bit of water today - 2 weeks after the last watering.

Given how tough it is to access the batteries I did get a bit of the electrolyte on the surface of the batteries so I hosed it down when the caps were back on and I was finished. Interesting observation when I went out to check them after the stress test. My infrared thermometer gave no indication of a overheating problem. But, I saw bubbling at the vent on a cap. Of course, that bothered me. It turned out to be the escaping gas going through a bit of water left from the hosing down.

So, now I'll keep my fingers crossed that they are all fine.

Don
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Old 02-15-2005, 10:40 AM   #9
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Don, very good news. I'm going to pop over to WalMart after dinner and buy the charger you bought. The one I have is about 30 years old and very low tech. Also planning to pick up a hydrometer.

My unit is at the Cat dealer getting a couple of service letters fulfilled. When I get it back, I plan to isolate, test, and charge each battery individually. I think that will tell me more than just charging the whole bank together.

Hope mine turn out as well as yours did.
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Old 03-13-2005, 10:02 AM   #10
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Tom, I just happened to look at a little insert on the box of my Vector charger. Says my model isn't recommended for motorhomes. It is recommended for trucks and given I'm using it only for the chassis batteries (other than one use for a single coach battery) I think that should be OK. I just sent them an email asking the question. The model they recommend for RVs is 2-6-15 vs my 2-6-12 so I assume it is a matter of power. But, to keep it charged in float mode it is highly adequate.
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Old 03-13-2005, 10:10 AM   #11
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Don, we discovered we have the famous 04/05 chassis battery drawdown. We had to start the engine this am because it was down to 11. How can we tell if the tranny in our 2-04 is an o3? Thx Bea PA
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Old 03-13-2005, 05:51 PM   #12
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Bea, if your Allison came with TranSynd, it will be O4. You can get the serial number off the plate on the side of the tranny and I can tell you for sure what year. Have to crawl under it though.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:10 AM   #13
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Hi Ho Don: I'm glad your batteries are hanging in there, but boiling batteries is not a good idea and can shorten life because of loss of electrolyte. (Replacing lost electrolyte with water dilutes the battery acid). To provide an answer to your original question regarding where the negative lead from the charger should be connected: Charging batteries results in the production of hydrogen gas. This can become explosive if it is contained in a small area and a spark is present for ignition. The reason the charger manufacturer suggests grounding on a chassis member is that this removes any potential spark from the area around the battery where hydrogen gas could be present. I believe that in 99.99% of charging situations even if there is hydrogen it is dissipated by convection currents. I normally just make connection to the battery terminals, but that is a personal choice.
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Old 03-14-2005, 01:16 PM   #14
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I charged the chassis batteries with with the tray pulled right out so there wasn't a lot of risk of that happening. Now I leave them out for a while and then shove the tray back in for the balance of charging.

I wish I had sealed compartments since the wide open ones in the Journey result in a lot of dirt. When we get back north I'm going to have to take out the batteries and clean up the compartment and paint it. It is a mess.

Note that the original question was asked a month ago.
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Old 03-14-2005, 01:49 PM   #15
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Hi Ho Don: Some of us are just slower than others. Since you were getting electrolyte all over the place, a good solution of baking soda and water everywhere but in the electrolyte would be a good idea. I also find that my pressure washer helps to clean up the battery area. If you don't neutralize the battery acid you will eventually have problems with connections, brackets, clamps, etc. By the way, I'm sure you know this, but wear clothes you don't care about. Everyone I know that works around batteries has holes in them.
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:25 PM   #16
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Don, I notice in one of your recent posts you mentioned disconnect of chassis batteries. Do you have a chassis battery disconnect switch?
We're in an '04 36G Journey, and like many others have chassis battery drain...should I somewhere have a chassis battery disconnect switch that I've not yet found?

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Old 03-14-2005, 05:52 PM   #17
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Dirk, did the baking soda bit early.

Jack, I'm going to get a disconnect switch for the chassis battery.

I've been checking to see what source of the drains are on the chassis battery. I've made sure basement lights out, surround sound on 110 and not chassis, took out the 4 walkie talkies grom the charger, and now wonder about the Weatherpro awning - which system is it on. Guess I'll have to read the electrical diagrams (something I hate doing). I'd like to get a disconnect switch and when I get back home from Florida will purchase one and have my No. 2 son (engineer in automotive field) install it.
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Old 03-14-2005, 08:17 PM   #18
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Hello everyone, thanks for the tips on your batteries. I would like to add my two cents because of an incident that happened to me a few years ago. Whan a battery explodes, it is like a bomb going off and spews battery acid everywhere ... including your eyes. Safety Glasses are cheap ... please wear them when working around batteries. The battery was a lawn tractor and it was well vented and a spark set it off. Please wear those saftey glasses.
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Old 03-15-2005, 03:07 AM   #19
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Thanks, Don. Don't know of anything on the Journey that absolutely MUST have juice while in storage. Earlier I had to put a battery switch on our toad Buick Rendezvous...it loses radio presets, compass calibration and driver preset of seat/mirrors, but that's no problem.
Frankie, thanks for reminder of safety eyewear.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:21 PM   #20
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Jack, the problem is when you are parked for several months in Florida - what are you turning off with a cutoff switch???

Steps - that is ok with me since they can be turned off "out" if you need to use them them or "in" if you have a separate step.

Weatherpro awning - that is an interesting one. Anyone know which battery system it is on? We put our out and retract it regularly.

The 4 2-way radios that sit in their compartment recharging - are they on chassis battery? I've assumed they are and have taken them out since we only use them when we are travelling and will put them back in a day before we depart.

Also I don't put the radio on main (chassis) which gets rid of the pulsing sound in the surround sound - we are leaving it on AUX but keeping the radio "ON" with volume down to zero and it stays quiet.

This seems to have reduced the rate at which the chassis battery voltage declines substantially.

Anyone know the total list of items powered from the chassis batteries? Given the large wad of cables connected to the chassis batteries there has to be something I'm not aware of.
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