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Old 10-23-2016, 04:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1 View Post
Hold it- Don't replace that solenoid yet!

The test you should perform is to measure the "big terminal" voltages while someone inside presses the AUX START switch, both with the coach engine off and on. NOTE: the coach should also be unplugged from shore power and not on generator when performing these tests.

These are the tests "FIRE UP" recommended in post #6.

It's fully possible that the solenoid is fine, and a charging logic circuit is not. Or, a charging logic circuit may not exist, per my post #12.
He stated that voltage is getting to the activation terminal. Knowing that, the logic is working. Pushing the boost button is not going to change anything.
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by winnie32v View Post
OK, Read post #'s 6, 12, 17.
1. I DO hear a "click" when I push the "Battery Boost" toggle on the dash. I will employ my wife in the AM and Unplug from shore, engine OFF, take readings across the 'Big' terminals with Battery Boost Toggle ON and Off to ensure that the solenoid IS functional.
I will do the same with engine ON.

Results will be posted.

Also, I just made one other check: With the shore plugged IN, The left Big terminal on the solenoid reads 12.70, the Right one reads 0, the Small one reads 0.

Does this help???

Is this enough to determine if the solenoid is bad and needs to be replaced?

Advise, please.
Winne32v,
First off, as I explained in my earlier post, that solenoid has dual duty. It acts as a link to link both the house and chassis batteries together, when additional voltage/amperage is needed for cranking that big CAT.

And, it's second duty is to link the charging system of the alternator, with both sets of batteries, WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.

It, the solenoid, closes in two manors. One, when you push the "Auxiliary Start" button/toggle on the dash.
The second manor it closes is when the engine is started and power is automatically fed to that same solenoid with no help from the Auxiliary start button.

In any case, that system has absolutely NOTHING at all, to do with the shore power version of charging either set of batteries. Since your coach is a diesel, I'm going out on a limb here and going to ASSUME (you know what the old cliche is for that???) that you have an INVERTER/CHARGER!

If so, that inverter/charger also has dual duties. It allows for power from shore power to enter and travel straight through, to your 120AC outlets.Or, it can also convert 12VDC to 120AC when asked for by pushing a button on a control panel. But, there's a "Charger" side too. And that charger, for just about all Winnes and Itasca's up to around late 2005 or early 2006, will ONLY CHARGE THE HOUSE BATTERIES, while plugged into shore power or, when the generator is running!!!!

In the earlier years of Winne and Itasca, there was basically no thought from those two versions of the same company, to allow for CHASSIS battery charging while plugged into shore power. It wasn't until those years I mentioned in the previous paragraph that Winne and Itasca finally pulled their heads out of their a... and installed what's called a "Trik-L-Start". The Trik-L-Start is a simple little black box, about 1/2 the size of a pack of cigs. It's NOT A BATTERY CHARGER! i

It's job is simple. All it does is, when shore power is applied, and the inverter/charger is charging the house batteries, that little black box sees the difference, in voltage, between the coach/house batteries and the chassis/engine batteries. When it sees .5V difference, it goes to work. It then will siphon off, no more than 5 amps from the charge that is directed to the house batteries and, send it to the coach batteries.

When that happens, you're chassis batteries are now receiving a charge, from the INVERTER/CHARGER, not the engine alternator. So, that means that solenoid you're working on, is completely out of the picture.

Now, as for testing that solenoid. Yes, you can put your hand on it before you have your CEO push on the Auxiliary Start Button/toggle. Then, when she pushes on it, you SHOULD feel the click. If no click, NASA, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!! If there's a click felt, you go to plan B. And that is, test the voltage on both sides (big terminals) before she pushes that toggle. Record the results. Then, have her push on that switch and re-test both terminals. Record the results.

What you should see is, house battery voltage on both sides, AFTER the switch is pushed on the dash. Hope this helps some.
Scott
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Old 10-24-2016, 04:27 AM   #23
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Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Just digested all of the above responses..........

Here's the way I see it,
Engine running, I have 12+v going into the 'small' solenoid terminal (this SHOULD energize the solenoid to CLOSE, completing circuit).
The Left 'Big' terminal has 14+v going INTO it.
The Right 'Big' terminal reads only what is available from the coach batteries (~12+v), NOT the expected 14+v from the charging system.

SO, everything is in place, solenoid IS energized, 14v going IN from charging system, Charging NOT coming out.
Conclusion: solenoid terminals DID NOT close when energized, thus the 'continuous operation' of the solenoid NOT occurring.

Action: Buy a new solenoid.
Is this a simple conclusion or not?????
Thanks.
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Old 10-24-2016, 05:40 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by winnie32v View Post
Action: Buy a new solenoid.
Is this a simple conclusion or not?????
Yes, that is a reasonable conclusion.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by winnie32v View Post
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Just digested all of the above responses..........

Here's the way I see it,
Engine running, I have 12+v going into the 'small' solenoid terminal (this SHOULD energize the solenoid to CLOSE, completing circuit).
The Left 'Big' terminal has 14+v going INTO it.
The Right 'Big' terminal reads only what is available from the coach batteries (~12+v), NOT the expected 14+v from the charging system.

SO, everything is in place, solenoid IS energized, 14v going IN from charging system, Charging NOT coming out.
Conclusion: solenoid terminals DID NOT close when energized, thus the 'continuous operation' of the solenoid NOT occurring.

Action: Buy a new solenoid.
Is this a simple conclusion or not?????
Thanks.
Winne32,
Yes, that's the "logical" conclusion and action. But, me being me, a sort of "Rube Goldberg/MacGuyver" combo, I elected to perform surgery on my solenoid. Pictures to follow. Now, here's the deal. What you found out, based on your tests and conclusions, yes, the solenoid not completing the circuit. But, it may still be closing. Many of us have found the same exact situation. And, as explained earlier, the contacts inside that solenoid, while making contact, are pitted, and or, corroded and or, carbon arced, to the point that, there's no real higher volume of voltage and amperage traveling between them. In other words, they're closing but, nothings getting across them.

So, I dissected mine. What I found was minor corrosion and arcing. So, I got out my trusty little dremel, some rotor files and sanding discs etc. and went to work. ALL BETTER! I put it all back together and vuuuuallllllaaaaaa, it worked as good as new, for about a year. It did it again. Only it did it in the middle of a trip. CRAP!

Since I was in a small, podunk town in CA, where things like a transistor radio is NEW STUFF to them, I figured I surely wouldn't find the solenoid I needed. So, I re-dissected it again, in the camp ground. Cleaned all the parts that really weren't that bad anyways but, I did it and put it all back together. It worked for the rest of the trip. I got a new one when we returned home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1 View Post
Yes, that is a reasonable conclusion.
Mark as usual, is right. As explained above, me being me, I tried to save a buck, for diesel fuel. It worked, as stated, for a while. But, the SMART move here is to simply replace it.
Scott

P.S. Photobucket, the cache where all my pictures are stored, is down for maintenance so, no pics of the dissected solenoid. Sorry.
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Old 10-24-2016, 06:48 PM   #26
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OK, here's where I ended up.
Took the CAMDEC AND Winnebago part #'s to my local NAPA and they couldn't cross reference any of the par numbers that I gave them. (???!!!)
They DID have a three terminal, base grounded constant operation solenoid on the shelf, rated at 80 amp, I am told. Since this is way over the limit for the #6 wire used to carry the voltage AND I needed it NOW, I bought it. Exact duplicate to the one on my unit as far as I could see. Cost me $48.18 incl tax. It was a NAPA ST95.

After disconnecting all of the electric, I removed the existing solenoid. I then took it to my shop and did a bench test. Grounded the base, 12v to the small terminal and heard a very pronounced "Click" when energized. However, there was NO continuity through the Big terminals. = BAD solenoid.

I next, did the same test on the new solenoid that I bought. As expected, when energized, there WAS continuity through the two Big terminals.
So, I installed the new solenoid, hooked everything back up and started the engine.
Result: 14.4v going IN the solenoid, 14.4v coming out and going to my coach batteries.

PROBLEM SOLVED, now I can concentrate on my trip south. I will report how well it worked after several days of driving.

Also looking forward to the pics of the refurbished solenoid. I can't find anything to take apart so I can get into the old one to determine the problem. Seems pretty sealed up to me.

As suggested above, I may also hook up a small 12v computer fan to keep the new solenoid cooler if I have some time.

Once again, this forum has demonstrated that it is a great tool to help, advise and tutor all of those who participate. What a wealth of knowledge available to all of us.
THANK YOU.
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:08 PM   #27
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Lots of info here at irv2 about the solenoid. I posted some links in the mods and fixes thread here. (Looks like one picture disappeared from the web, not a big deal, you know what it looks like.)

You're not the first one to use a NAPA piece. A thread that mentions some NAPA parts
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by tderonne View Post
Lots of info here at irv2 about the solenoid. I posted some links in the mods and fixes thread here. (Looks like one picture disappeared from the web, not a big deal, you know what it looks like.)

You're not the first one to use a NAPA piece. A thread that mentions some NAPA parts
Thanks, just spent some morning coffee time reading the info in the references you gave.

QUESTION: Since I previously didn't know anything about this solenoid and it's function, I installed a 12v maintenance charger to my engine battery and plugged it into an available 110 outlet in the motorhome.....So my engine battery would always be 'charged up' when I was plugged into a 30a source. This has worked fine.

NOW, since the solenoid is working, does this mean that my ENGINE battery is also being charged (like the coach batteries) while shore line is hooked up OR do I still need to use the 12v charger?

Also, I guess that my "Battery Boost" will work now. Never had the need to use it in the past but glad to know it will work now.

Seems like there is always something new to learn about the electrical system of these motorhomes.
Thanks.
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:26 AM   #29
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NOW, since the solenoid is working, does this mean that my ENGINE battery is also being charged (like the coach batteries) while shore line is hooked up OR do I still need to use the 12v charger?
The answer is "It depends."

Some coaches have charging logic devices that work one way (chassis to house) via the solenoid, and others have bidirectional devices.

Some have two uni-directional devices. In Scott's first post he spoke about a "Trik-L-Start," which is a uni-directional device to keep the chassis batteries charged.

The simple test (which has already occurred to you) is to plug the coach into shore power and see if the solenoid activates, with the inverter/converter on.

Also, you can trace the solenoid coil "pick" wire back to the existing charging logic device. An Internet search should tell you whether that device is uni- or bi-directional.

I couldn't find a charging logic device in the Winnebago wiring diagrams for your coach, but obviously at least one uni-directional device is there to pass chassis charging to the house batteries. So, my shortcomings in reading the Winnie diagrams is revealed.
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Old 10-25-2016, 09:22 AM   #30
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I did not have any logic on our '03 Adventurer. When on shore power or running the genny, I just ran an alligator clipped wire from the positive on a coach battery to the big post with the positive cable from the chassis battery for a couple hours. I would do that once a month and always kept the chassis battery in good shape. Sorry, to cheap to buy trickle chargers and I have had them fail as well and fry my battery.
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Old 10-25-2016, 09:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by winnie32v View Post

NOW, since the solenoid is working, does this mean that my ENGINE battery is also being charged (like the coach batteries) while shore line is hooked up OR do I still need to use the 12v charger?
Your 2001 Adventurer did not have any provision to charge the chassis battery while plugged into shorepower when it left the factory.
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Old 10-25-2016, 09:51 AM   #32
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Your 2001 Adventurer did not have any provision to charge the chassis battery while plugged into shorepower when it left the factory.
Thanks, I just unplugged the maintenance charger for a few hrs and checked the engine battery.
I was NOT being charged by the shore power, as you verified.
So, I'll keep the set up I have. It is working fine.
Thanks.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:14 AM   #33
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Thanks, I just unplugged the maintenance charger for a few hrs and checked the engine battery.
I was NOT being charged by the shore power, as you verified.
So, I'll keep the set up I have. It is working fine.
Thanks.
I do the same with my 06 Itasca Sunrise, which is a lower level model than your Adventurer. My MH was equipped to charge the chassis battery on shore power.
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:07 PM   #34
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Many MHs of that era used solid state Battery Isolators. Google for a picture.

The builder would direct the alt output to the diode isolator and send the charge current to both sets of batteries.

There would be no coach to chassis charging with them. Only dual charging when engine is running.

Find what type of system you have and report back.
I have the old style and will be looking at picking a new one up
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:47 PM   #35
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The answer is "It depends."

Some coaches have charging logic devices that work one way (chassis to house) via the solenoid, and others have bidirectional devices.

Some have two uni-directional devices. In Scott's first post he spoke about a "Trik-L-Start," which is a uni-directional device to keep the chassis batteries charged.

The simple test (which has already occurred to you) is to plug the coach into shore power and see if the solenoid activates, with the inverter/converter on.

Also, you can trace the solenoid coil "pick" wire back to the existing charging logic device. An Internet search should tell you whether that device is uni- or bi-directional.

I couldn't find a charging logic device in the Winnebago wiring diagrams for your coach, but obviously at least one uni-directional device is there to pass chassis charging to the house batteries. So, my shortcomings in reading the Winnie diagrams is revealed.
Mark,
You're speaking of systems that, for the most part, do not exist on may era Winnes and Itascas. I had one that is quite possibly what you are speaking of on our previous coach, a '99 Fleetwood Bounder 34V with the Triton V-10 and F-53 Chassis. It had what was/is called the BCC or, Battery Control Center. It had/has all kinds of solenoids, timers, bi-directional-time-delay-relays and more.

But, as I told the OP, for just about any Winne and Itasca of that era, and maybe even quite a bit newer, there's two independent charging systems for those batteries. The first one, the alternator of the engine, will charge BOTH sets of batteries, house and chassis. It charges the chassis batteries through normal channels but, it charges the chassis batteries THROUGH that solenoid with no logic systems to think about or control it. The second one, is the Inverter/charger. As stated, in years prior to late '05 or early '06, the charger side of that Inverter would ONLY CHARGE THE HOUSE BATTERIES while the coach was plugged into shore power or the genny was running (same wiring).

Folks complained to Winne for years about finding their coaches chassis batteries DEAD when they'd retrieve them from winter storage AND, they were plugged into shore power. Well, Winne finally pulled its head out and started installing the Trik-L-Start system.

For those that use the MacGuyver ways of keeping your chassis batteries charged while on shore power due to the fact that your manufacturer never provided any feature to do so, I'd re-think your ways of doing it. Yes, I too was that way for a long time. I did like some and I think the OP, I installed a stand alone 3-stage Napa battery charger under my bed in the coach. It was purely for the chassis batteries.

I cut the A/C plug off of it and ran the wires into an unused 110VAC breaker in the panel, in the same area. Then I ran the 12VDC leads, through the side bulk head and, right over to the chassis batteries. Well, that worked for about 3 years. Then, the charger gave up the ghost. So, I did a bit of research and re-considered the Trik-L-Start. What I found out was, there's a BIG BROTHER to that Trik-L-Start. It's called the Amp-L-Start.

The Trik-L-Start has a limit of only 5 amps it will deviate towards the chassis batteries. The Amp-L-Start will deviate 15 amps to them. The price is about the same or, maybe a tad more, it's been awhile. But, the point is, it's a seriously simple system to install. There's three wires. Even a CAVE MAN can do this install, I know, I did it.

And your little MacGuyver ways of keeping your chassis batteries all charged are all taken care of with this little box. No need for jumper cables, no worries about frying the chassis batteries, no need to monitor anything. It takes care of itself. When the chassis batteries are all up to par, it simply drops in to the maintenance mode.

Everyone's got to do what's right for them and what they feel comfortable with. Like stated, I tried the charger route, it worked, for a while. Now this has been in place for about 2 years.
Scott

P.S. Here's a couple of pics of what it looks like and where I installed mine.


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Old 01-24-2021, 02:02 PM   #36
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I have a 2006 Winn Aspect 26A. I am having an issue where I am fairly certain my Battery Mode Solenoid has gone bad. Here is the posts for that:


https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3885612


If you read, you will see I did several tests so far. Any feedback from you on this would be helpful. But I was really wondering what you mentioned about Trik-L-Start. I think I DO NOT have this, but how can I tell? If I wanted to add something like that, what would be involved? I have had my chassis battery drain too low, while plugged into Shore Power at home, that is why I think I do not have this. Thanks!
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:51 PM   #37
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Hey Fire UP, how about lightening up?



The solenoid mentioned is the first place to start and a simple 12v tester will show whether current is provided out to the batteries. The purpose of the solenoid is to prevent the coach draw from draining the starter battery.
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Old 01-25-2021, 02:03 PM   #38
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My post, #36, was directed to Fire Up, as he mentioned the Trik-L-Start and years when Winnie started including that functionality. I would have edited my post to add this, but I guess there is only a short edit-window on this forum.
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Old 01-25-2021, 03:34 PM   #39
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My 2004 Itasca Horizon 40AD did not come with a BIRD system to charge the house batteries when driving; and that includes charging the engine batteries when plugged into shore power. So I installed a Keyline Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR) that does the same thing as a Blue Sea Battery Combiner.

This was one of the first and best upgrades I did when I bought my RV 5 years ago and it's worked flawlessly every since. Now you can get a Keyline nock-off on Amazon for less ~$40, since their patent expired. Just use your own battery cables... 10 gauge or thicker will do the trick.

The Boost is a "momentary switch". There for this solenoid is not in use 99.9% of the time. However, it burns up rather quickly if you use it often to join your house batteries to your start batteries to either A) start your engine; or B) start your generator.

==> The 12V Power Grid Chart below assumes the BOOST SWITCH gets power from the ignition key, but I'm not sure? Does anyone know? Is there a separate fuse?

==> The wire list I got from "Morich" (thank you very much) says the white wire to the boost solenoid is a ground wire, but I can't tell what "MG" is or where it comes from?

Moving on to the BDS (solenoid)... this is a "latched" solenoid that remains connected when you are using your RV. This solenoid is controlled by that "Saleman's Switch" by your front door... aka Coach Master On/Off Switch.

==> If you are trying to charge your house batteries off the alternator, I think you will find a VSR or Battery Combiner or Battery Isolator... that all do the same thing... will solve your charging problems. Likewise, when the inverter-charger is working to charge your house batteries, the VSR will open to also charge your chassis-engine battery.
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Old 01-25-2021, 03:42 PM   #40
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Since there are lots on small nooks and crannies where small stuff like either of the Trik-L items might hide, I might do a test as a more certain way to find out if you do have the added charging equipment.

Based on the idea that without some form of charger, the start battery will gradually run down, if we place a load on that battery like leaving the headlights on for a bit , while the RV is plugged into power will show you one of two situations.

If you have the charge items like Trik-L or other methods like the Solenoid is pulled up while plugged in, your start battery will not show the reduced voltage that we would expect when the car lights are using battery.

If the start battery doesn't run down when you are plugged in and the lights are left on, it means you have some form of charging.

We all remember what happens when we leave the car lights on? But it isn't as bad on the RV because they do give us a boost switch and we don't have to get the jumper cables out!

On the drawing above the MG wire is simple ground for the circuit where LR is the positive. Other years may only have a solenoid with three terminals and those do not need MG as the positive battery comes in on LR, goes through the coil and to the solenoid frame which is screwed to ground at the frame.

Without some path to ground, either by the mounting screw or an added wire like MG, you have the definition of "open circuit"! If you did get power to the solenoid on LR, it would not work if there was no path back to the negative of the battery supply.
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