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Old 06-17-2019, 08:09 PM   #1
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Question 2019 Winn Vista with Residential Fridge

Our new RV (2019) has a large residential refridgerator, running off inverter when not plugged in to shore power, plus other appliances/ lights as normal. From what I have read, it’s the fridge that uses the majority of the battery power. We have 4 twelve V house batteries - does anyone have an idea how long we can go on batteries before having to charge with generator, and about how long we need to run generator to charge them? Salesman said “a couple of days”, but I have a hard time believing that.

We are boondocking it for 4 days soon, with no power available, so trying to get some advice here.

There is room in the battery tray for 2 more house batteries - would it be a good idea to install them so we can run longer without power.

All advice is welcome - thanks.
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Old 06-17-2019, 09:25 PM   #2
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I don't want to "sound" silly but just under this thread is another long one discussing when to run the generator etc. related to the same residential fridge question. Bottom line summary:


You need a Battery Monitor like a Victron 712 or a Trimetric to know the state of charge and health of your batteries. That's the most direct approach and without a plethora of other advice - do that first. Run the rig for four days in your driveway using it just like you would dry camped and see what that Battery Monitor tells you. I have just been through a ton of testing to find some issues but you won't even know if you have an issue without the battery monitor - until the batteries probably die or get too low to do the job. Seriously, I think most folks here will say the same thing.


The real answers to your question can get tedious but guesswork will not answer your question. Get a Battery Monitor installed if dry camping is in your future. Then you will know exactly when you need to run the generator, how many AmpHours you took out, how many you put in and the State of Charge of the batteries. Your goal will be to always stay above 50% SOC if possible for battery life.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:32 AM   #3
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We have a 2015 with a resdidential refrig. Assuming the batteries are in good health you should make it overnight but not much further. As mentioned you need to know your SOC. If you start overnight with a SOC in the 90s you lose about 20%-25% overnight. You never want to go below 50% so starting at 90% or so is a nice safety margin.



We have 4 solar panels so they muddy the waters but work great.



We find we like to run the generator in the AM for an hour or so(we have always had solar) and then in the evening to get to SOC up to 90%+ level.
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Old 06-18-2019, 09:13 AM   #4
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We have a similar setup. But, we also have 300w of solar. We can run the fridge and everything else off the batteries (same as yours) all day and all night with about 1 1/2 hours of generator time in the morning and again in the evening. We do run the generator at lunchtime if we’re using the microwave but that’s all.

As others have said you really must install a shunt based battery monitor. It’s the only way to truly know what your batteries are doing. It’s easy to install and are fairly inexpensive.

The last time we dry camped we tried turning the inverter off at bedtime. Of course this turned off the fridge, too. But since it was cold at night and the fridge remained closed all night it remained perfectly cold and we woke with nearly fully charged batteries. Then we only needed 30min of generator in the morning. We were in the mountains and it was in the 40s at night so that certainly played a part.

With 300w of solar, on a sunny day, we just need to get our batteries back to 95% SOC in the morning and the solar will get us to 100% SOC and keep us there all day.

Of course on travel days you’re charging with the alternator on the engine, so you always arrive with 100% SOC.
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Vista View Post
Our new RV (2019) has a large residential refridgerator, running off inverter when not plugged in to shore power, plus other appliances/ lights as normal. From what I have read, it’s the fridge that uses the majority of the battery power. We have 4 twelve V house batteries - does anyone have an idea how long we can go on batteries before having to charge with generator, and about how long we need to run generator to charge them? Salesman said “a couple of days”, but I have a hard time believing that.

We are boondocking it for 4 days soon, with no power available, so trying to get some advice here.

There is room in the battery tray for 2 more house batteries - would it be a good idea to install them so we can run longer without power.

All advice is welcome - thanks.
If your trip is planned so soon you can't install the monitor before you leave and/or add additional batteries then run your generator for about 1.5 hours in the morning and again in the afternoon, like "creative part" does and you should be good. Do be sure to minimize any other power use, such as TV, lights & furnace.

An absolute must is to install the Battery Monitor.

It would be most helpful if you would include the size and type batteries you have installed. Also the name and size fridge. Also what inverter and converter/charger do you have would be most helpful.

If your future plans include more than just 4 days of boondocking and boondocking more than a couple of times a year, switching your 12V batteries out for golf cart batteries and adding 400-600 watts of solar panels would be best.

If you are just going to dry camp for 4 days or so, once or twice a year, then just staying with what you have, but be sure to add the battery monitor, such as Victron or Trimetric.

Please, please, please, since you will be running your generator; either park with other RV'ers who are running their generators, or park at least 1/4 mile away from boondockers who are not using a generator. It is very aggravating to those of us who are set up to not run a generator to have someone come into a nice quiet boondocking area, park 50 yards away and then crank up their generator.

Here is a link to some very good basic info about batteries, charging, power usage and solar. There are 2 parts to the link, so be sure to click on "part 2" at the bottom of the first link.
The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1)

The above link is also titled "The 12V side of Life".
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:17 AM   #6
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Depending on your definition of boondocking you may be restricted to generator hours. Generally they are 8-10 in the morning and 5-7 or 8(or thereabout) in the evening.



We are generally gone by 8 so we allow th generator to automatically start by itself as the batteries need power until 10, we don't know how often or long the generator runs, we have figured out that the batteries don't get to full batteries during the morning session, seems to fill a bit, reaches some cutoff and then stops. With 660 watts or solar we are fine during the day.



We are generally very happy with our setup just wish we understood the generator and its cutoffs better.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:38 PM   #7
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Thanks all for the info - I realize that my original email wasn’t really detailed - however I think I got a fairly good idea of how this can play out - I will post how we make out next week.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:50 PM   #8
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I assume you won't have a battery monitor installed by next week. So, make yourself aware of what battery voltages mean as far as state of charge.

See the chart below.

NOTE: to get a good voltage reading on your WBGO's One Place monitor you don't want to be charging, nor have the inverter on. You should be at rest for a while. That is not charging, no engine running, not inverting or using much if any 12v power for long enough to get an accurate reading. They suggest 30 mins of resting, but that might be difficult to do.

Don't let your batteries get below 12.1 volts repeatedly each time you do you'll be shortening the life of your batteries. If you go too low (below 11v) you may not be able to bring them back from the dead.

If you have the Cummins EC30 Generator Controller you can set it up to auto start your generator if you fall to 12.2v on your battery bank. And you can program in Quiet Hours, too. But it's a hit or miss setup that will take some experience and trial and error.



Here's the chart:
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:41 PM   #9
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What Autostart are you using and for what generator??
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:43 PM   #10
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The battery chart is not for AGM, Gel or Lithium battries, only for wet cell. What type of batteries do you have?
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:47 PM   #11
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Ok - we tried unplugging the RV this weekend, with fridge and odd lights on/ off. I watched the power center reading started at 13.4, but quickly went down to 12.3/12.2....then slowly reduced. The last reading I saw was 11.9, then shortly after it said “Low Battery Voltage”......this was at about the 8 hour mark of being unplugged. I plugged back into shore power, and it went thru it’s 3 stage charging routine till we were back to float charge.

So, I have two thoughts - adding 2 more 12V batteries (to make a total of 6), OR biting the bullet and buying six 6V batteries and wiring it to 12V. I have read that will provide more amp hours. Any advice on this?

Last, I heard that the batteries that come with new RV can be suspect, and that new owners should expect to replace them within 1-2 years - true?
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:01 PM   #12
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Something seems wrong. You should have about 400 AH from the batteries, 200 AH viable. Refrig takes(based on the plate, actually takes less) about 6 A/hour(which is high,Kill-A-Watt measured 1.6), inverter should take ??(depends on inverter). There is also parasitic load which is an unknown.



Have you checked your batteries to make sure they don't need water? Maybe you should take them in to be load tested.



I'm sure others will have comments.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:16 PM   #13
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Well...if the fridge really takes 6 amps/hr on 120vac then a little math


watts=6amps*120volts = 720 watts


convert that to 12.6 VDC,


Amps = 720/ 12.6 = 57.14



amps running off the battery per hour so we can guess it is drawing less by far than 720 watts/hour. If the killawatt is correct at 1.6 amps then


watts=1.6amps*120vac = 192 watts
Amps = 192watts/ 12.6 = 15.24 amps on the batteries per hour
If the latter is true then about 120 AH in the 8 hour period plus whatever the inverter and parasitic is taking.



If the OP has a clamp meter put that thing on the NEG battery lead which is MOST NEG, ie., connected to ground and take some measurements. If there is no time to put in a battery monitor system like the Trimetric etc., then measurement with a capable clamp meter is the next best thing. There are many decent clamp meters out there which cost a lot less than my Fluke but will give a good reading of current. I would hesitate to dump in all those new 6vdc batteries, rewire, and find out that gave me only another 4 hours. That might work however if you can run the genny all day when you get up. I stayed with 12vdc Trojans, T-1275, to run my little compressor fridge for 300AH total. You get to double the AH with parallel connects, max out the amps available. It will take many more 6volt batteries in series/parallel but in a big rig it can be done.


Since compressor refrigerators do not run ALL the time but cycle you can get a very accurate guess with a clamp meter which can connect to the phone BT and produce a 10 minute graph. Then you know the cycle time and duration and current draw - extrapolate that per hour for AH. The Fluke 375 FC is one that does that with an app on the smart phone.


I'm guessing the energy guide for the refrigerator is the source of the expected load, it should state real watts for the unit as well since it is a residential unit. If it states 6 amps at 120VAC that should be max, not the watts per hour usage. It should be drawing minimal amps during the off cycle which is far longer on a residential unit than my 12VDC unit. Cycles vary with temperature and door openings etc.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by John Vista View Post
.....

So, I have two thoughts - adding 2 more 12V batteries (to make a total of 6), OR biting the bullet and buying six 6V batteries and wiring it to 12V. I have read that will provide more amp hours. Any advice on this?

Last, I heard that the batteries that come with new RV can be suspect, and that new owners should expect to replace them within 1-2 years - true?

Batteries in parallel double the amps voltage the same, batteries in series the amp hours of ONE battery total but voltage is doubled. However you could have three parallel banks of two 6volt batteries in series. Say each one of the 6 volt batteries is 100AH rated you get 300AH or possibly less amps than the original, while 6 of the same batteries in parallel will give 600AH. The quality and type of battery will be important to you as well. When rigs did not have compressor refrigerators most of us always connected 6volts batteries in series, true deep cycle batteries - and they lasted 5 years at least. My rig is space limited and weight limited so I put two massive 12volt T-1275 batteries in parallel for 300AH total.



Normally the quality of the OEM batteries will be suspect. They may be true deep cycle or not, they may have been discharged too far on the dealers lot to be essentially gone or short lived with a weak cell or just sitting or being over discharged. Some manufacturers are very aware and even install expensive Lifeline AGM batteries, CoachHouse does that but they control the environment since they sell direct and no dealer is involved.


If it turns out that boondocking or dry camping is something you decide to do frequently you will be looking for a pro shop to install good solar properly and the possibility of LiFeP04 battery install.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:03 AM   #15
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For grins I looked at a "large" but not 4 door massive residential refrigerator, typical use is given at 63.24 watts/hour or like a light bulb of olden days gone by. That is for an EnergyStar certified unit. You too can do the math. The rating will be Kwh year so 365 days x 24 hours/day = 8760 hours operated per year. Then a 554 Kwh usage per year = 554,000 / 8760 = 63.24 watts/hour estimated. Now that is a number which says you can boondock overnight with good batteries and it does come near the killawatt estimate given.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:42 AM   #16
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Ok - we tried unplugging the RV this weekend, with fridge and odd lights on/ off. I watched the power center reading started at 13.4, but quickly went down to 12.3/12.2....then slowly reduced. The last reading I saw was 11.9, then shortly after it said “Low Battery Voltage”......this was at about the 8 hour mark of being unplugged. I plugged back into shore power, and it went thru it’s 3 stage charging routine till we were back to float charge.

So, I have two thoughts - adding 2 more 12V batteries (to make a total of 6), OR biting the bullet and buying six 6V batteries and wiring it to 12V. I have read that will provide more amp hours. Any advice on this?

Last, I heard that the batteries that come with new RV can be suspect, and that new owners should expect to replace them within 1-2 years - true?
Excellent test and documentation.
NOTE: I am assuming you were charging your batteries for a day or four on shore power before doing this test.
-- The 13.4V reading you started with is the surface charge left over from your charger. This is normal. The details about surface charge are not critical at this time.

-- All your major loads, i.e the fridge are turned off, so there SHOULD be very little drain on your batteries now.
-- You stated "I watched the power center reading started at 13.4, but quickly went down to 12.3/12.2... and then going down to 11.9 in about 8 hours", really seems to indicate you have one of your batteries going bad.
-- It would really help what specific time "quickly went down to 12.3" is. Five hours or 1 hours or 30 minutes.
-- Good batteries with a "normal" phantom load of 2-4 amps will go to about 12.6V (normal full charge voltage) in about 30 minutes after being unplugged from shore power.
-- If your 4 batteries are group 24 batteries (quite small batteries) you would have about 250AH (Amp Hours). If you have group 31 you have about 400AH. The normal 2-4 amp draw should not draw the 4 batteries down below about 12.3-12.4V in 24 hours.
It is possible that you have some sort of heavy amp draw. Something which is pulling 15-25 amps. You really need a amp meter to measure the number of amps going out of your battery to verify. This is were the battery monitor suggested in earlier posts is really helpful.

As others asked, have you checked the water level in your batteries. Also buying a good specific gravity battery tester to check for a bad cell in one of your batteries would be very helpful in determining the cause of the problem.

Quote:
So, I have two thoughts - adding 2 more 12V batteries (to make a total of 6), OR biting the bullet and buying six 6V batteries and wiring it to 12V. I have read that will provide more amp hours. Any advice on this?

With a residential fridge, and IF you are going to do much dry camping or boondocking, 6 batteries and especially 6 golf cart batteries wired in series for 12V would really be best.
However just adding batteries doesn't fix everything. You MUST have a way to quickly charge the batteries. With 6 GC batteries (660AH) you need a charger that will put out 100amps or more.
Also if you are going to dry camp for more than 4-5 days before hooking up to shore power you need more than your generator to charge your batteries. 600watts of solar would be recommended.
The issue is that with the fridge and your normal living power draw you will be using 200-300AH of battery in a day. To get your batteries back to 100% full takes 6-12 hours of generator run time to get to 100%. If you don't get back to 100% consistently every 5-7 days you will loose a lot of your battery capacity in just a couple of months.


Last, I heard that the batteries that come with new RV can be suspect, and that new owners should expect to replace them within 1-2 years - true?
Typically the batteries that come with the RV are not designed for extensive dry camping. They may be marine batteries rather than true deep cycle batteries. The RV's are set up more for one night of dry camping and then driven the next day to charge the batteries or moved to shore power.
Here is a link to some very good basic info about RV batteries, charging, solar and how much power (amp hours) various devices use. There are 2 parts to the website so be sure to click on the link to part 2 at the bottom of the 1st part. .
The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1)
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:16 AM   #17
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I was thinking on the same lines as Al. Your batteries were not really at 13.4v when you started the test. That was residual voltage from your charger. A fully charged 12v battery should be at 12.6v or 12.7v.

Also, the inverter isn't 100% efficient so it's probably using 3 to 6 amps all on it's own - not even when running any appliances through it.

There are a lot of other variables. Was the fridge already cold? Or did you run your test while cooling down the fridge? Obviously, cooling down takes a lot more compressor run time than maintaining an already cooled temp inside the fridge.

It would be instructive to do a further test - on shore power for 24 or more hours. Then with the inverter off and all other 12v loads off, unplug from shore power and see what your batteries do. They should drop to 12.6v over the first half hour. That would mean you have fully charged batteries. If they drop lower than 12.6v right away you do not have fully charged batteries or you have some large parasitic load or your batteries are not in good condition.

Then wait another hour or two and see if it continues to drop and how quickly. That will determine both any parasitic loads you have and the condition of your battery bank.

On my Adventurer I have the Magnum ME-2012 inverter/charger, which is a standard install on most WBGO Class As with a residential fridge. When the RV is plugged into shore power once the batteries are fully charged it turns off the charging function automatically. I think it's programmed to be off for 3 hours and then it turns the charger back on. When it's off I see 12.6v on the OnePlace meter. When the charger is on I see 13.4v on the OnePlace meter.

We have 300w of solar and a Victron SmartSolar controller - so even when the inverter/charger stops charging for 3-hours our solar system will keep charging the batteries. The solar controller is smart enough to vary the amount of charge it applies based on the actual voltage that the batteries are actually at, as well. So, even with the charger off, during the day we seldom drop below 12.6v on our battery bank.

Because fully charged is 12.6v and 50% discharged is 12.1v the ~.5v range of charge is so limited in scale that this makes installing a battery monitor that gives you a State of Charge in percentage so vitally important.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:52 AM   #18
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Reality, now we are talking long term fixes for an immediate trip. The thing is the OP, John Vista, declared a near term boondock was coming. What to do? Well, blind mule does get lucky sometimes but in a nutshell he is stuck without some testing and management tools. Buy new batteries - what kind and how many are needed? Get warranty replacement on OEM batteries - probably a bad choice if they are too small anyway but have been damaged.


Simple answer - most residential refrigerators can run overnight with no problem if there are adequate batteries in good condition with near 90+% charge in them at generator off time in the evening. Like I found most of us agree a "normal" residential has around the consumption of a 60 watt incandescent light bulb constantly on every hour. In amps an easy load for good battery bank.


First things first, test the batteries. Turn everything off, charge the batteries, let them sit overnight but at least 3 to 5 hours and test with a hydrometer for a weak or bad cell specific gravity charge. An equalize charge is probably not within his grasp immediately so not gonna happen fast to see if those OEM batteries will come back.



If he has a clamp meter - try that afterwards to check the current load as noted. When everything is said and done the battery monitor will be necessary to keep things operating on par and the batteries he chooses in good health. So far I have found no shortcuts in my situation. If there is a big draw in addition to the refrigerator he must have some way to find it, correct it or turn it off.



He has no solar - not gonna happen for an upcoming trip, especially a proper solar install.


Probably comes down to the fact that the OEM batteries are not up to the task because of size or abuse before delivery but I don't know his rig and what current draws might lurk outside the inverter and fridge.



John, take the time to read those links Al posted
. Very helpful to understand the ins and outs and what to consider in selecting batteries if you replace the OEMs. Most of us who boondock have become very aware of these issues and there really is not a quick fix, rather a methodical, logical approach taking all things discussed into consideration to produce a favorable outcome.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:16 PM   #19
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Creativepart brought up a very good point I forgot to mention.

Leaving your inverter in the "on" condition, it will pull 2-3 amps even when not powering any devices. So if/when you turn off the fridge, be sure to turn off the inverter unless you need A/C power for something.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:51 PM   #20
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Indeed, the ME-2012 has a no load rating of 20 watts @ 120VAC which translates to 2.1 amps @ 12.6 VDC.


It all adds up very quickly. On our rig we have the infamous LP electric solenoid switch to turn the tank on/off, you can't go to sleep with that thing on either. We leave ours OFF unless taking a shower or using the cooktop etc. I forget exact draw, actually measured it around 2amps I believe, maybe a bit less.


John Vista has more options than I did. He has room for six batteries - nice, he also has a roof space large enough for a good solar array. Even then it helps to know the loads being applied, be frugal until you get a handle on everything and get the battery monitor installed. With that you can easily see the impact of various loads, lights, appliances etc. I'm just a bit different in that I enjoy playing with the Fluke but it is not a replacement for the battery monitor, just another tool in your package.
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