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Old 05-26-2019, 07:35 AM   #43
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I have a 2019 Navion 24D that was built in March 2018. My refrigerator has the access panel and the flat blade fuse installed. I can get the freezer down to about 12-14 degrees before things start to freeze in the refrigerator. I called Norcold about this and they said that anything under 20 degrees in the freezer is within their specs. I suppose that if I can figure out the air dam thing, I might be able to improve this a bit. I ran the refrigerator one night on battery just to see how it would do and all seemed OK. The issue that I have is that the unit cycles on and off constantly. One minute on, one minute off ... My one year warranty expires this week, so I'm going to notify the dealer of this issue and see what they have to say.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:12 AM   #44
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If I had this refer, I think I'd replace the fuse with an appropriately sized circuit breaker mounted in an accessible location. A couple feet of additional wiring isn't going to make much difference.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:18 AM   #45
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2019 VD, also interested in the air dam being mentioned in this thread, to help regulate the temps in the freezer and frig. What did you use and how did you build the air dam and how do you install it. Freezer currently running 12-14 degrees but I have to watch the frig because it will get below 32 degrees. Setting is right at 4.2. Any warmer and freezer temp starts to climb. Any colder and frig freezes.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:47 AM   #46
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I had a refrigerator on my 2018 24V View that constantly cycled on and off similar to what you are describing. I do a lot of dry camping where we are running on batteries not using shore power. I found my batteries were being depleted overnight and the refrigerator would stop running somewhere in the night even though I was running nothing else, no lights, tv, invertor - even the propane was turned off as I am told the solenoid takes 1/2 amp. I worked with Winnebago and Norcold on it and ended up finding a fuse that was placed at the top of the frig that was redundant to redundant and boiling hot when the refrigerator was turned on. Per instructions from Norcold I pulled off the trim panels on each side and then loosened the screws and finally sliding the frig out to expose the fuse holder on top of the frig. I was told to cut out the fuse and wire nut the wires back together.

Voila, problem solved. The batteries lasted much longer and the refrigerator no longer constantly cycled on and off. I don't know how much this was spread around to dealers but my frig now runs much better and the batteries last longer.
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:43 PM   #47
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You don't need to replace the fuse with anything, the fridge on my 18V24D already has a 15 amp blade fuse in the power distribution panel. The fuse on the unit is redundant. Check your wiring diagrams also. Stating the facts, assuming no liability, but in my case that fuse has never been hot. If it were heating up the current draws graphed in my recent thread this topic which you can find in my gallery here would show that. If resistance increases due to a bad fuse holder, current flow will respond to that resistance. It doesn't matter one rip what you do, the fridge cycles as noted in those graphs. There never was a problem with the fridge - it is the 12vdc power supply. Witness, failed converter, dead OEM batteries, failed solar panel all in early months of ownership. WGO refused to talk about the 12vdc power supply, ridiculous. It is a 12 vdc refrigerator, if the 12 vdc is compromised - the fridge is the real symtom but not the real problem. Put in some good batteries, if it makes you feel good - cut the fuse out, it is already fused as noted - look at your distribution panel. Accept the fact that the fridge cycles. The measurements from my FLUKE 375 FC and the graphs it produced are telling. My fridge has worked perfectly since I put in the Trojans T-1275. The issue I have now is dry camp. Three days good, then it takes too long to bulk charge etc. BTW, listening to the fridge does not indicate the electrical cycle - recording with a FLUKE 375 FC shows the exact electrical cycle, no mystery. Put two cutoff switches in for the solar panels WGO installed, one on NEG from distribution 3-port on roof to controller (at the back of controller) and one on the feed to battery NEG. That will allow you to actually charge the batteries running the generator during the day and provide an easy way to shut off solar when working on batteries without unplugging the panels. Pulse Width Modulation of the controller on the FLUKE shows no charge, charge from the converter is always NEG with the - sign on the FLUKE clamp pointed toward chassis ground and the clamp around the main NEG battery post feed to ground. Your current flow with BOTH panels in sunlight and the converter on and genny running is compromised significantly. I can post those graphs in the gallery if anyone wants to see it. It takes slightly more expensive equipment than a $400 meter to actually prove that but current flow is telling and the Fluke measures that well. All the hoopla about the refrigerator is equivalent to the stuff my horses left in the pasture and the stalls, the darned refrigerator performs to spec and slightly better graphed with the FLUKE, holds temps, with the air dam cools both compartments properly and Norcold is not at fault on this issue. It is WGO design and engineering not doing that - engineering - or simply cutting costs and not giving a rip if your fridge works or not.


So... the Norcold draws under spec, 2.5 amps to 3.3 amps in cycle and does slightly increase load with increased temps but that is insignificant to the overall problem since the rise is less than .8amps from 60*F to 90*F ambient.


OH, that graph which I thought meant the DE0061 was drawing too much current - that's my first experience with how solar current from the PWM controller looks - no polarity, so you see a false double current reading. The PWM current adding to the refrigerator draw...confusing? Yeah but easily explained - I did.


Make certain you select good batteries before replacing the junk OEM batts, disconnect the solar, chassis and house battery grounds first. If you reconnect in parallel as OEM make certain the POS charge supply cable from under the passenger seat is to one battery POS and the NEG to chassis ground is on the other battery. After 11 months the Trojan T-1275s are holding good, full charged and unplugged overnight hydrometer readings are good. If you connect in parallel you will need to run manual equalize around once a month, the solar controller could do it but it rarely if ever will get a chance to get into that mode. The PD9245 will not equalize at all. That's for FLA deep cycles, if you have AGMs the PD9245 is OK.
I don't expect to get 5-7 years out of the Trojans in this rig, they are being abused, the fridge runs all the time and the PD9245 can't deliver a proper charge nor can the Zamp controller. Trojan wants bulk at 14.7vdc blasting at 13% of c20. If you get home and have a month or so you can shut down the fridge for defrost, then disconnect the batteries and use a good external charge to help the batteries. Long term though I expect less than 5 years life. Failure to equalize will invariably lead to early battery demise with a bad cell in the weak side of the parallel connect(usually caused by POS charge and NEG ground on the same battery, the other one is "weak"). Probably within 2 years.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:26 AM   #48
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I just thought I would let anyone know that reads this thread that my problem has been solved and Winnebago Ind. has come through for me. I got a call from a supervisor in the service dept. at Winnebago that had several Norcold reps and his engineering dept in his office. They talked me through how to slide out the frig, locate a fuse inside a fuse holder that was overheating and remove it, then install a wire nut to reconnect the wires. Presto, the refrigerator ran totally differently and no longer sucked all the juice out of the batteries nightly. The refrigerator ran all night and still had power left in the batteries. I am thrilled and back out dry camping.

Thanks Winnebago!!
Hey- can you share that procedure with me? I think Iím having the same problem. Thanks!
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Old 06-03-2019, 04:06 PM   #49
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I have a 3-26-18 built Navion with the same problem, fridge running down the bats. I'm going to delete the fuse tonight and see if that worked. Thanks for all the recommendations.
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Old 06-04-2019, 09:02 AM   #50
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I have a 3-26-18 built Navion with the same problem, fridge running down the bats. I'm going to delete the fuse tonight and see if that worked. Thanks for all the recommendations.
I have the Navion 24J model and have an access door behind the TV. Unfortunately I couldn't reach the red wire/fuse so I had to pull the fridge out a bit which wasn't too hard once you get the trim pieces off and the doors. I cut the fuse out and used a wire nut on the two wires. Fridge seems to work fine. I'll be testing it's performance next weekend.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:21 AM   #51
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fstclyz,


Please let us know your results. I just finished a 5 day run, in the driveway, simulating a dry camp. As noted before my fridge seems to be working perfectly with the load normally 70-72% at 2.5-3.2 amps. That seems pretty easy to manage at about 25AH in a 12 hour overnight period. Of course that's just the fridge, we use other amps like everyone else staying in the rig. I simulated that as much as possible to be like a real camp event.



What I wound up doing so far is installing the remote pendant for the PD9245, stuck it just beside the distribution panel for easy access. I also had installed cutoff switches for both input and output ground leads of the solar controller.



What I found in testing and in practice is the PD9245 was not under any circumstance going into BULK charge mode when I started the genny, even if I was down to 50% SOC. I verified that with the FLUKE. In other words I could never get a generator run to really recharge the batteries because even in low light, clouds and rain the solar controller is putting charge voltage at low amps on the batteries and the converter simply went into FLOAT. Understand normally in dry camp your generator hours will be between 8:00AM and 8:00 PM, overlapping with solar hours - usually 10:00AM - 4:00 PM around here. What I wanted was to max those morning and evening hours as necessary with the generator runs, let solar do what it could in peak sun or daylight hours.



I can now either disconnect the solar or simply press the button on the PD9245 remote pendant and force it into BULK charge mode. For me it appears the problem is solved. I can use my onboard genny or the Honda 2000 and boondock now. I may or may not add better solar, probably will at the end of the summer, rigid panels and an MPPT controller.


I would most definitely enjoy using my FLUKE to graph another fridge like this where the owner has removed that inline fuse. Anyone with a rig like this who is interested drop a PM and we will see about meet-up - or I live on a fairly large farm - you can dry camp here all you want. We have friends drop by frequently, park in a pasture (no animals now) or stay on the gravel by the shop.


It just seems there has been a lot of guess work done in this problem resolution, perhaps science can overcome fear and superstition.
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:41 PM   #52
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It is almost cheating to test like this because the rig is parked in full sun, however I'm about 7 days into this "dry camp" simulation and so far I have four hours of converter run time. It has been bright and clear. Rainy weather coming in a day or two but today I harvested 84.5 AH on the two OEM panels and when the solar controller turned off the battery was FULL, reading 12.76 at the battery. I'm pretty happy with it. The rainy days coming next week will tell me how much more solar I really need on the roof (and how much genny time). The refrigerator is operating steady at 7-8*F freezer and 34-37 bottom. I do open it every time I check stuff but during real use it probably gets more door openings. My real estimation with both of us in the rig is about 120-140AH needs to be put back in during the daytime. We can squeeze that down especially if I turn down the humidifier in the CPAP. Other things are variable also but the fridge has become less of a nuisance and it can be done, boondocking.
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:21 AM   #53
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I would most definitely enjoy using my FLUKE to graph another fridge like this where the owner has removed that inline fuse. Anyone with a rig like this who is interested drop a PM and we will see about meet-up - or I live on a fairly large farm - you can dry camp here all you want. We have friends drop by frequently, park in a pasture (no animals now) or stay on the gravel by the shop.


It just seems there has been a lot of guess work done in this problem resolution, perhaps science can overcome fear and superstition.
A very good write-up Bill!
I'm glad to see that you went with the Charge Wizard pendant and I appreciate the other details provided in your testing. It is good to know that the Norcold 61 is "doing a little better".
I was curious what the space temperature (inside coach air temp.) is while conducting your test. One shortfall I see with the Norcold 61 is the thin insulation of the carcass. The warmer the coach ambient, the greater the impact on the duty cycle of the Norcold. I assume that you aren't running much to control the inside temperature of the coach when boondocking.

A good way to chart the performance of the Norcold on battery only is to take readings not only of the amp draw and duty cycle but also time, coach ambient temp, counts on refrigerator door opening and solar - on/off.


I have removed the fuse from my Norcold unit, however I'm not in the position to run the test of my unit at this time. However, our camping uses typically have full hook-ups but we do plan to stay in some national parks where there aren't any hook-ups; so the performance of the Norcold on battery only is important to me.

One note of modification on my unit is that I installed a bi-directional battery manager with a manual cut-off switch. This allows the lower voltage battery (coach or chassis) to receive the charge as long as the supply battery stays above 12.9 volts. If I'm on alternator and supply voltage is greater than 13.3 volts and the coach battery drops to 12.9 volts, the BIM will close to charge the coach batteries. Vice-versa for the chassis. The converter or solar will keep my chassis battery topped off - something that was not do-able on the OEM setup. All batteries stay topped off from either the alternator or the converter.

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Old 06-16-2019, 09:02 AM   #54
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Bobby,


The rig is plugged up to shore next to the house so I have the Air set on 78*F. I am manually controlling the converter with the breaker on the distribution panel. I do record door openings, time the converter is manually turned on/off etc. We don't boondock in hot weather, the heat really hammers me - bad heart. The other variable is the direct sun hitting the side of coach in the AM.



As you noted the insulation is pretty thin on the DE0061. I added foil bubble behind the unit but it probably would benefit from more real insulation.


The ambient temps do impact the current draw/cycle times slightly. I've measured an increase from 2.5 amps at 60*F to 3.3 amps at 78*F. Really hot weather could be higher.


This AM a two hour converter run got me back to just over 90%SOC and solar is working around 10amps right now. Heat impacts those OEM Zamp panels as well - above 90*F air temp the output actually goes down and those panels are too hot to touch with your bare hands.


So far the Trik-L-Charge is working fine for me in keeping things charged between the alternator and solar and converter, chassis battery is always good to go. The weak link is the Trombetta solenoid, have the Cole-Hersee in hand.


My next thing to do is to pull the Zamp panels and 3 port, replace it all with rigid panels and a MPPT controller.


It appears when everything is said and done the generator will be my best friend in boondocks.
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:25 AM   #55
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So far so good modifications

My first step to mitigate the issues surrounding the 12v fridge and the original solar system on my 18 Navion. This week I installed a third Zamp 170 watt rigid panel to add to the original 100 watt flexi panels. I also installed two 6v Trojan 125s with only some minor tie down modifications to the battery tray.

With the fridge and freezer holding pretty much the correct temps set at 4, with one overhead fan running constantly, and one overhead set of the led lights on four hours a night, I am on day five without having to run the generator or hook up.

Day three was an overcast rain day during the entire daylight hours. Each morning I check the voltage and battery conditions and Iíve never dropped below 12.6 volts. On day six Iíll use the pendant to force the converter to boost off the generator and start the test over again. If I could routinely count on being off grid for five days, Iíll be pretty happy all things considered.

My next mod is going to be moving the solar controller closer to the batteries and pull a larger gauge wire in the process.

The only problem I encountered was that the resettable 30 A fuse for the solar system (under the passenger seat) kept blowing. I determined that it was actually blowing right at 20A. I replaced it with a switchable 40 A and this is holding fine.

I appreciate Winnebago providing me with this new hobby and a way to drop a cool grand that was just sitting around.
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Old 07-07-2019, 07:21 PM   #56
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Could be that 30 amp reset was just weak. In my rig that one is bussed to the battery disconnect breaker on the output side.


This is a good report and good to hear. Thinking about my situation I have almost given up trying to find 24 volt panels that fit on the View roof. I think Zamp has darned good rigid panels so that is a real possibility for me as well. I'm sitting on a warranty replacement ticket for both my flexis right now for two rigid 115 panels. I'm thinking out loud but two of those 170 watts would be awesome, three would be too much for the controller rating.


I ran the voltage drop calculator on two conductors of 8ga with a load of 20 amps and it is almost as good as a single 4ga wire if you are going to pull cable. Something to consider since those 8ga runs are in place it might be almost as good to parallel them with another like run. If you move the controller up front and operate at 18VDC and 20 amps your voltage drop over two conductors is only 1.7% or 17.69vdc at the end of the runs - not bad at all.


Leaving the controller where it is and with 13.5 volts from the controller output the charge voltage at the end would be 13.19 or 2.33% drop. Of course when the controller is pushing 14.7vdc in absorption the drop is really no problem at all.


My brain forgets if the Zamp panels operate at 19 or 18 output. I measured open voltage several times, maybe 20.


Did you get to measure the max amps output or just read the controller panel? In either case you are withing the 20% safety margin for the controller at 30 amps rating.


BTW, the only "hobby" I ever had that came near the expense of RV stuff is the horses we had for years. You gotta love them, ride them and show them and enjoy the hard work or it's just cash into a dark hole. It does seem we have similar thing with the RVs sometimes.


Anyway two rigid 115 watts at 6.3 amp max plus one 170 watt at 9.4 amps are still within the controller safe margin. On a good day I see 11 amps during peak solar for the two flexis. It sure would be nice to see 20 amps going into the batteries from solar.
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