Winnebago/Country Coach Service Center

[1GRN1]

We have been a guest of Winnebago/Country Coach Service Center in Junction City, Oregon (north of Eugene) for almost a month now. The service center provides overnight camping for clients, providing a full hook-up for those with a service appointment. There's a very nice city park to the south of the "campground". The "campground" is 100% asphalt with back-in, angle parking just wide enough to extend slide-outs on both sides of your Class-A motorhome. Camping is free the day before and after your service and during service. Of course you may drop off your coach and stay somewhere else during service. The "campground" is conveniently located about 25 yards from a main, north-south trunk of the Union Pacific Railroad whose trains run 24/7 and who warn their approach to each crossing north and south of the E 6th Ave campground in downtown Junction City. The service technicians will pickup your coach after 8AM and return it after 4PM, sometimes working on your coach for as little as 1 hour. Depending on what time you rise, you can have breakfast and later, dinner, and then sleep in your coach, but lunch is your out of pocket expense. An air conditioned waiting room with TV and free Wi-Fi is available at the service center, a short walk from the "campground," but it is very small. There are 11 sites at the "campground". At two persons per coach, the waiting room will not accommodate everyone. If you want some peace and quiet and Wi-Fi and a table where you can work or simply read, recommend you visit one of the local restaurants, and not the city library. The library is more like a coffee shop with intense and loud conversations which include the librarian. A complaint to the librarian is met with looks of disbelief that one would actually complain about her and others' noisy conversations within a facility that normally requires quiet.(Incredible!)

On this coming Sunday, we will have been here 4 weeks. Why? Apparently Winnebago has insufficient leverage over their suppliers to demand their support when their customers have issues with their suppliers' products, and in our case a tankless hot water heater. The Winnebago technicians and staff here at Junction City have been outstanding, outstanding to the extent that they have expended over 40 hours of labor to absolutely determine that the tankless hot water heater in our 2017 Forza 38W, including the new one that replaced the original, does not function properly. I don't know about you, but I expect the appliances in my coach to perform every function they are purported to deliver. Ours does not. The techs here have, over the last 3 1/2 weeks demonstrated without a doubt that the issue is NOT Winnebago's fault, but those of the tankless water heater's manufacturer. Unfortunately the manufacturer ignores the multiple messages left on their support line, pleading for assistance. I just don't understand why Winnebago's VP of Quality, VP of Purchasing, or even CEO has not contacted the supplier to complain about their lack of support while one of their customers has been stranded in their "campground" due to their defective product. One can call Winnebago and speak to a Customer Service agent, but unfortunately, based on my personal experience, they are little better than voicemail. They apparently don't have any authority to get anything done. I must admit that I am currently a Director in a global manufacturing company who produce HD Diesel engine valve actuation systems. I'm accustomed to speaking to CEOs and VPs and Directors, not telephone answering automatons. I'm also accustomed to action, not talk. But then, this is Winnebago, we're talking about, where they will spend 40 hours of their talented service technicians time simply to prove that a $500 water heater doesn't work, and then further waste their time hoping to reach the manufacturer's customer support staff so they can eventually repair or replace their discrepant product and release a valued Winnebago customer from their service center campground [parking lot].

[Ray,IN]

Excellent summation of your experience! For the record, what is the brand of your tankless water heater? I'll be sure to avoid that brand.

[creativepart]

Can they not jettison the WH, put some other $500 WH in your Forza and not make everyone happy? Could they not have done so 3 weeks ago and saved everyone thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of trouble? What’s wrong with them?

[1GRN1]

The brand being discussed in my post is Truma. The unit is supposed to provide comfort and cold weather freeze protection, automatically maintaining a heat exchanger temperature of 120 deg F or 41 deg F according to the user's selection. It simply doesn't work. The only functions that work are "eco" and off. One can select the comfort setting at the remote or the lower of 2 on positions at the device and then turn on a hot water tap to get hot water, but after the heat exchanger cools, or if a hot water tap is not opened at start up, the device repeatedly sends the ever-present error code 27 which means that the circulation pump does not operate or the plumbing to/from the device is not properly vented, i.e. air expelled from all taps (including washing machine, etc.) prior to start-up. Thus far Truma has failed to take an active interest in resolving the issues with their defective product. Likewise, Winnebago upper management has also failed to take an active interest in ensuring customer satisfaction with a Class A coach having a quarter-million price tag.

[1GRN1]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Can they not jettison the WH, put some other $500 WH in your Forza and not make everyone happy? Could they not have done so 3 weeks ago and saved everyone thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of trouble? What’s wrong with them?

Winnebago higher management may be more interested in owner rallies and Truma more interested in doing nothing rather than satisfy customers.

*I can't verify this, but it seems like the MSRP of the AquaGo Comfort Plus tankless hot water heater is in the neighborhood of $1,600. A 6 gallon WH might fit, but that's inadequate capacity for a 40' Class A diesel pusher. Another supplier's tankless WH might fit, but it does not appear to directly control water temperature. Water temperature is a function of flow rate (faucets) and a user-selected burner setting (18000-36000 BTU).

[Ray,IN]

At this point you might consider writing the consumer help section of the Good Sam magazine and the FMCA magazine. Both seem to obtain positive results for the majority of complaints published in the magazines. Seems like when an RV mfgr. or appliance mfgr. is addressed by these magazines, the mfgr's rep. knows what they do and say will be published into the RV industry consumer pool.

[1GRN1]

Having already invested a month into having the defective Truma WH repaired at the Junction City, OR facility, I need immediate action while I'm present. When Winnebago upper management takes control of a situation within their control, resolution to that situation should be immediate. That's what happens in the company I work for where managing directors take an immediate interest in resolving customer issues. Note: I looked at a list of directors and executives at Winnebago - I couldn't find a VP or Director of Quality. What does this say about the importance of quality at Winnebago? What they need is an executive who reports directly to the CEO, and certainly not to a Director of Operations as their list of executives seems to imply.

[NYBobbo]

WOW..... I feel your pain. I'm glad I have been treated much better at both Lichtsinn and the Forest City factory.


I have a 2016 View with the Truma and I love it! My unit does not have the self descaling or the winter heater as yours. Other than having to get it descaled at a dealer it works well. I turn on the "comfort" setting and have a cup of coffee then take a shower - maybe 1 qt of water and it's hot, when finished I turn off the system. The only problem I had was what appeared to be from the water pump not supplying enough pressure - new water pump fixed that.


I hope you get some satisfaction from both Winnebago and Truma.


I wonder if it's a plumbing screw up, perhaps with the valves. I know from the factory they had my system plumbed so that I could NOT winterize without filling the Truma with antifreeze (which they make a special point to tell owners about, including a post card last fall). Lichtsinn installed a few more valves so I can now isolate the Truma....... still waiting on Winnebago to get back to us with a fix since last summer, sure glad I didn't wait for an "official fix".

[NYBobbo]

Any update??

[powercat_ras]

Interesting = Trauma was well represented at the Winnebago Grand National Rally and had a show special for free installation at the Winnebago Service Center for anyone buying one at the GNR rally. I was not interested in buying one so don't know if they were installing on the spot or there was a backorder situation.

I have seen situations where something fell thru the cracks and the person that was supposed to order the part for the service center messed up and the order was never valid so no part was shipped. This was only discovered after my friend complained after part had never shown up after 10 days.

So, you should insist on getting the Winnebago order # and order details and get confirmation. Then armed with those details you can ask to talk to the manager of service administration for Winnebago (in Forest City you'll have to get his # and call) and get things moving.

[1GRN1]

The quite excellent factory technicians at WGO Junction City, OR on Friday tested our replacement Truma AquaGo Comfort Plus (AGCP) per Truma instructions, directly connecting it to external water supply and return lines (totally separate from the coach's) and determined without a doubt that the replacement Truma AGCP, like the one originally installed in our coach, does not work on the COMFORT setting. (I think the labor hours expended so far following Truma's instructions is something like 70 hours. (Est. $9,000.00 Winnebago warranty repair hours.) The Truma AGCP is advertised to maintain instant hot water and protect the unit from freeze up respectively by maintaining the heat exchanger (HX) at 120F on COMFORT and at 41F on ANTIFREEZE settings. (Ours doesn't.) Truma reportedly tested our original AGCP and pronounced it satisfactory. It occurs to me that if the AGCP is first tested on ECO until it finally delivers hot water and is then switched to COMFORT, it would of course pass since the HX is already near 120F. (Duh!) A proper test would start with a cold HX and on the COMFORT setting such as a RV owner would do after first making camp. Unfortunately when our original AGCP and its replacement is cold and switched from OFF to COMFORT, the AGCP runs the pump and issues Error 27 and will not deliver any hot water unless the unit is switched to OFF for 15s and then switched to ECO. If the switch is later moved from ECO to COMFORT and one waits overnight before running at hot water tap, the HX will cool down and then commence issue of Error 27, failing to maintain the HX at 120F. If switched to ANTIFREEZE, I doubt if the unit would maintain the HX at 41F. The hazard with that is that a cold snap could result in freeze damage to the unit and that would be very expensive (You will likely be unable to prove that the unit was set to ANTIFREEZE and supplied with propane or otherwise winterized, and on that basis, your warranty will be null and void.)

One could ask, what happens when a manufacturer does not properly test their product and releases hundreds, maybe thousands of defective products to the public? Most manufacturers do the right thing and execute a recall program. Will Truma do the right thing? Who knows. In our case, so far we are totally unimpressed by Truma's performance. Their documented failure to reply to WGO technicians' multiple calls for assistance and direction is unacceptable.

Should you buy an RV equipped with a Truma device? If you say yes, you might want to consider spending the money on psychiatric care instead.

NOTE. The Truma has two ON settings. The top one is ECO, the bottom one is COMFORT. At your own risk you may disconnect the remote (knob) within the RV by first turning off the unit and unplugging the RJ12 (telephone cable plug) from the controller. With the remote disconnected and the unit already OFF, you can easily test your own Truma AGCP for proper COMFORT function by opening a hot water tap until the water runs cold to ensure that the HX is indeed cold, close the tap, and then depress the ON-OFF-ON switch to the lower, COMFORT setting. In theory the unit should run the circulation pump for a bit, then run the exhaust blower for a bit, and then ignite the burner, and deliver hot water. Otherwise it will more likely only run the circulation pump for a bit and then flash a red light, Morse code style, dit-dit-dit-dash-dash-dit-dash-dash which is Error 27, "Water circulation pump is running dry."

Please report your test results here. I'd like to find out how many defective Truma AGCP are out there. I can't have had the only 2 on the planet that are defective.

[NYBobbo]

Perhaps I'm happy with my Truma because it's an earlier model. I have eco and comfort on mine and no freeze control other than eco turning on when it gets below 40 some odd degrees. The control for Eco or Comfort is outside on the unit itself not inside. I actually thought about upgrading to have the new features but decided against it due to cost, and mine works. I guess the old saying KISS would be appropriate here. I've never had an error code on my unit.



It does appear that your assessment of their testing is lacking at best. Looking forward to more updates.


Truma should know you are posting this and people will see it. It might help motivate them, perhaps.

[powercat_ras]

You may want to start a new thread with a better title if you are wanting to hear from other Winnebago owners with the Truma about the defect you are experiencing, you don't even have Truma in your thread title. Sorry for your troubles.

[Meridian42e]

Well you were definitely in the wrong place at the wrong time - The focus was on the GNR in Forest City for Winnebago (after all it was their 60th), and Truma had a big presence there. I guess the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - not sure you can reverse that.

So, exactly why is a Director of a large global company letting a $500 part hold him hostage in a parking lot for over a month with nothing but a keyboard to keep him entertained? Not me, I'd have been on a plane home by day 3 leaving my phone number to call when it is done, or I would have been somewhere else getting it fixed and taking the loss (might have even done it myself). Just curious.

[vito.a]

Thanks for the great description of the service center.
If I understand correctly, you have tried two Truma AGCP water heater systems and neither one works properly.
Would it be reasonable to assume a third one is probably not going to work?
It sounds like it has an inherent design or manufacturing flaw.
I wish you the best of luck with this situation.

[dusty_fluffy]

I have NEVER been a fan of instant on-demand water heaters for RV or for homes. The cost savings is quickly lost in increased maintenance costs. IMHO

[puttin]

Originally Posted by dusty_fluffy

I have NEVER been a fan of instant on-demand water heaters for RV or for homes. The cost savings is quickly lost in increased maintenance costs. IMHO

Agreed, although this does not help the o.p. in any way, for others interested in a new purchase- stay away from these systems. We have made along just fine in our 35' Sightseer for over 10 years without such a system and I feel we'd be crazy to change if we had a chance. These tankless systems (and in particular Truma) have to be designed into the rv as a total system....too bad, otherwise you could simply swap the unit.

[NYBobbo]

I got along for years with a black and white TV.


I know people have had problems with the older style water heaters. Does that mean everyone should just rip them out... ?



Time to move into the future. It's unfortunate that there perhaps is an issue with the updated Truma systems - 1 person having a problem doesn't mean everything they make is bad, after all it could be his install. It's not like the forums are flooded with this, I haven't seen any others on the sprinter or the main IRV2 forums.


Retrofitting an existing RV with a Truma most likely will result in not having instant hot to the faucet because they would have to plumb the circulation system. BTW, I like the idea so much I'm having a circulation system for hot water in a new house being built.


There is no additional cost to maintain the system. Descale process needs to be done on all water heaters, and no electric rod to replace. Two an a half years and mine is working fine with many many months of use.



As far as the op, if room allows I'm sure he could go to the old standard and bypass the circulation plumbing. It's obvious he likes the idea of the system, he just wants his to work properly.


My opinion, since that's what this whole thread is about. I don't work for Truma or anything similar I'm just a happy customer.

[puttin]

Originally Posted by NYBobbo

I got along for years with a black and white TV.


I know people have had problems with the older style water heaters. Does that mean everyone should just rip them out... ?



Time to move into the future. It's unfortunate that there perhaps is an issue with the updated Truma systems - 1 person having a problem doesn't mean everything they make is bad, after all it could be his install. It's not like the forums are flooded with this, I haven't seen any others on the sprinter or the main IRV2 forums.


Retrofitting an existing RV with a Truma most likely will result in not having instant hot to the faucet because they would have to plumb the circulation system. BTW, I like the idea so much I'm having a circulation system for hot water in a new house being built.


There is no additional cost to maintain the system. Descale process needs to be done on all water heaters, and no electric rod to replace. Two an a half years and mine is working fine with many many months of use.



As far as the op, if room allows I'm sure he could go to the old standard and bypass the circulation plumbing. It's obvious he likes the idea of the system, he just wants his to work properly.


My opinion, since that's what this whole thread is about. I don't work for Truma or anything similar I'm just a happy customer.

I still watch some black and white movies. No, don't "rip them out" just don't ever have it installed....much easier like that. If your system is still working flawlessly as ours has been for TEN Years, then I'll listen. And...only Suburban water heaters use an anode rod....the Atwoods never have. I flush ours every 2 years- it takes about 20 minutes from the time I reach for my crescent wrench until I put it away. Yes, rv'ing entails some maint. now and then, and don't misunderstand, progress is fine as long as it's meaningful and enduring.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by Meridian42e

Well you were definitely in the wrong place at the wrong time - The focus was on the GNR in Forest City for Winnebago (after all it was their 60th), and Truma had a big presence there. I guess the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - not sure you can reverse that.

So, exactly why is a Director of a large global company letting a $500 part hold him hostage in a parking lot for over a month with nothing but a keyboard to keep him entertained? Not me, I'd have been on a plane home by day 3 leaving my phone number to call when it is done, or I would have been somewhere else getting it fixed and taking the loss (might have even done it myself). Just curious.

As for me, I am appreciative of the tenacity and persistence of the OP. I think he needs to apply to the Winnebago board of directors for the CEO position. To me, it sounds like he has the spirit of the founder, John Hanson. This gentleman has also observed that there is NO quality control oversight management. On my tour of the furniture factory, at a GNR back a couple of years ago, I was told by the department head, he was leading the tour, that each of his employees is responsible for there own QC. And, might I add, he had the stance of a proud dad when he told us this. Is that not a bit like putting the fox in charge of the hen house security program??



I think the OP needs to entitle his next post Truma or TRAUMA water heater.