Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-29-2007, 03:51 AM   #1
Winnebago Owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 62
Has anyone heard anymore info regarding the use of ULSD in older Cummins engines, either
1. Problems (actual or potential)
2. Heard from Cummins or Winnebago
3. Additives or preventative measures

Thanks,
Tagalong
__________________
2003 34H Journey, 300 HP Cummins, 2000MH Allison, Demco "Excalibar" Tow Bar, BrakePro and Chevy HHR
Tagalong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 03:51 AM   #2
Winnebago Owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 62
Has anyone heard anymore info regarding the use of ULSD in older Cummins engines, either
1. Problems (actual or potential)
2. Heard from Cummins or Winnebago
3. Additives or preventative measures

Thanks,
Tagalong
__________________
2003 34H Journey, 300 HP Cummins, 2000MH Allison, Demco "Excalibar" Tow Bar, BrakePro and Chevy HHR
Tagalong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 04:07 AM   #3
Winnebago Master
 
John_Canfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Back at the ranch
Posts: 2,041
The only issue I have heard of with ULS is with 2007 engines running non-ULS. Shouldn't be an issue unless you travel with your 2007 engine into Mexico. I assume they are still producing diesel fuel with high levels of sulfur and will continue to do so.

Maybe somebody else has a more informed report than I do.
__________________
--John

2005 Horizon 40AD, 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
John_Canfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 05:22 AM   #4
Winnebago Master
 
Pusherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 813
There are some reports of older (not sure what brand) engines developing fuel leaks with ULSD. If this happens it does it quick, so you'll know it right away. But according to the engine manufacturers (CAT, Cummins, and Detroit/MBE) ULSD is completely backwards compatible with older engines and the probability is low that the fuel leaks will develop.

No additives are needed as the appropriate lubricants are in the ULSD.

These comments were presented at the seminars in Perry, Ga FMCA rally.
__________________
Don
'07 Winnebago Journey 34H - CAT C7, Koni's, MCU's, SS Bell Crank, Safe-T-Plus
'07 HHR Toad, SMI AFO, Blue OX
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Pusherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 07:17 AM   #5
Winnebago Owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 62
Thanks John, that makes sense.
Thanks Don, I like what you heard. I read an article about the '03 ISB's developing fuel pump leaks and to fix the problem with the Nitril gaskets Cummins would only replace the entire fuel pump! (Thats an awfully expensive fix.) I didn't know about how quickly the leak may develope. That would make it easier for routine inspection.
Thanks for the replies. I think it's something to pay attention to as the Dieselphobes press their issues about how bad our engines are to the environment to our elected officials!
__________________
2003 34H Journey, 300 HP Cummins, 2000MH Allison, Demco "Excalibar" Tow Bar, BrakePro and Chevy HHR
Tagalong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 09:08 AM   #6
Winnie-Wise
 
vicsryd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posts: 383
Send a message via Yahoo to vicsryd
The folks at my local CAT service center say they have seen an increase in fuel pump and injector problems starting to show up in 2006 and earlier engines just since ULSD filled the pipelines in October. They attribute it to the lower lubricity of ULSD versus LSD.

After researching the subject in depth last fall I decided to no take any chances. Per recommendations from serveral sources I have been adding 1 quart of Power Systems Clean Diesel w/ SlickDiesel per 100 gallons of ULSD since November. They make a winter forumaltion (white bottle) and a summer formulation (grey bottle). It runs about $16 for 3 quarts at Wal-Mart. The winter forumation really does help with cold weather starts too.
__________________
Vicki & Jon Pritchard
05 Journey 34H - CAT C7 - Toyota RAV4
3 doxies, 1 chihuahua - WIT, Escapees, FMCA

vicsryd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 03:51 PM   #7
I helped | retired moderator
 
Route 66's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 285
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The folks at my local CAT service center say they have seen an increase in fuel pump and injector problems starting to show up in 2006 and earlier engines just since ULSD filled the pipelines in October. They attribute it to the lower lubricity of ULSD versus LSD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been to several Cummins seminars and talked to several Cummins employees, and they all have the same message;

Any lubricity lost by the sulfur reduction is being replaced by the refineries, no additives are recommended, and they have not seen a trend in problems or leaks related to ULSD.

IMHO, many failures are incorrectly being attributed to ULSD.
__________________
Adios, Dirk - '84 Real Lite Truck Camper, '86 Wilderness Cimarron TT, previously 4 years as a fulltimer in a '07 DSDP

Route 66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 03:56 PM   #8
Winnebago Owner
 
garybtt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 103
I have a certain distrust in them adding the additives, therefore I have been adding my own just in case. I have noticed that since I added my own my motor seems to run better as it did on the higher sulfer fuel.
__________________
2015 Dutch Starr 4018

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland
garybtt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 05:19 PM   #9
Winnebago Owner
 
Geechee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Summerville, SC
Posts: 96
Before retiring the major problem we encounter with our injectors and pumps during endurance testing was due to the lower lubricity of the USL diesel. There were more signs of wear on the components during tear down after the million cycle test when compared with normal sulfur level diesel. The only thing worst was engines exported to Asia that where sometimes run on what is known as Japanese Kerosene. Sulfur is a very good lubricant in diesel fuel, but is not real good for the environment. You have to remember that unlike gasoline, diesel has three functions, as a coolant, a lubricant and to provide combustion. Gasoline is basically just to provide the combustible component of the fuel charge. I think adding a supplemental lubricant at the prescribed levels is like eating chicken soup when you have a cold. It sure can't hurt.
__________________
2003 34D Brave Workhorse 8.1L w/Allison 5-speed

2004 CR-V EX
Geechee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 05:21 PM   #10
Winnebago Owner
 
boulderado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Posts: 80
Here is an email reply from Cummins on the ULSD issue:

Thanks for your Email message.

We have not experience the problems that the "Early Warning" alerted our distribution network to watch for.

There are many rumors circulating about the effects of sulfur being in diesel fuel or sulfur being taken out of diesel fuel. Diesel fuel without sulfur is just as good, in all respects except one, when compared with today's fuels with sulfur.

Diesel fuel, in the United States, must meet a lubricity standard. The producers adjust the lubricity before they distribute the fuel. No further additives are needed to ensure proper fuel system lubrication.

The only negative effect of taking sulfur out of fuel is that the fuel becomes more expensive, somewhat negating the inherent cost advantage of running diesel engines when compared to other fuels. As we are certain you know, sulfur doesn't jump out of the fuel on command. It has to be removed using specialized equipment and chemical processes that add to the expense of producing the fuel.

We have seen a very few instances where the reduced aromatic content of the fuel has resulted in slight leaks from fuel systems. This is not expected to be an issue with many engines.

Basically the change to new fuel should be pretty easy for folks with the engines built prior to 2007 and for customers with the engines built in 2007 it will be necessary, for the short time it takes fuel stations to consume the remainder of the old fuel (maybe a month or two), to be certain they are not fueling with the older fuel.

There is an effect on diesel engines from the use of low or no sulfur fuel which we expect to be positive. The blowby gasses that normally pass through the engine crankcase will contain less or none of the chemically reactive sulfur and its compounds. This will tend to keep the engine oil cleaner during operation and allow important engine components like bushings, bearings and piston rings to live longer.

Diesel fuels containing sulfur or no sulfur each have the same specific heat, about 20,000 BTUs per pound. For that reason they give the same amounts of work for the same amount of fuel. That means the fuel economy per gallon will not be affected.

Over the years we have seen fuel economy decrease, somewhat, as diesel engine designs have been modified to meet the lower NOX limits imposed by government. This has been totally unrelated to sulfur in the fuel.

With lower sulfur fuels it is possible that some exhaust after treatment devices (catalytic converters) may be used to better effect, making it possible to further decrease harmful exhaust emissions.

If you use diesel fuel that does not meet the new federal low sulfur requirements that are going into effect for 2007, in a 2007 vehicle that requires the new fuel, it will produce particulate matter that will cause rapid plugging of the exhaust particulate trap. We don't anticipate producing engines for such vehicles until 2007.
__________________
Knut and Susan in Colorado
Currently looking for a new rig
2008 Jeep Liberty manual trans w/Blue Ox
boulderado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2007, 09:13 PM   #11
Winnie-Wise
 
vicsryd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posts: 383
Send a message via Yahoo to vicsryd
Chevron's FAQ on ULSD here directly contradicts some of what Cummins says above. It's especially intersting that Chevron says the specific energy in ULSD is less than LSD whereas Cummins says there is no difference.

So who do you believe? I'm sticking with the guys in the trenches (i.e. mechanics) and go the better safe than sorry route, continuing to using additives or even just ashless 2-cycle oil until the dust settles everyone gets past CYA mode.
__________________
Vicki & Jon Pritchard
05 Journey 34H - CAT C7 - Toyota RAV4
3 doxies, 1 chihuahua - WIT, Escapees, FMCA

vicsryd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2007, 07:23 AM   #12
Winnebago Camper
 
JB Texas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 48
I found this link to a Cummins document dated August 3rd, 2005.
Cummins Document
Although I've not seen any problem leaks so far, I did have my fuel pump replaced due to a failure in 2006.
__________________
JB

JB Texas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2007, 10:46 AM   #13
Winnebago Owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 62
That's the document I've been looking for!
Thanks JB
__________________
2003 34H Journey, 300 HP Cummins, 2000MH Allison, Demco "Excalibar" Tow Bar, BrakePro and Chevy HHR
Tagalong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2007, 09:11 PM   #14
Winnebago Owner
 
Carnles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 80
I am not an expert on ULSD but I work as a pipeline operations supervisor and I can say without a doubt that the "pipelines are not full of ULSD". Yes, the ULSD demand is building, but there is still plenty of regular (500 ppm level) diesel fuel out there. Environmental regulations concerning diesel fuel are continuing to change with the next significant event (as far as on-road diesel is concerned) coming in 2010.

When the new diesel fuel was first introduced to us, it was emphasized that the lower lubricity level of ULSD compared to regular diesel would cause accelerated wear on older engines. This accelerated wear is directly linked to the lower sulfur content (&lt;15 ppm) of the fuel which lowers the lubricating effect of the fuel in the engine. Likewise, the new engines which are designed specifically for ULSD will experience exhaust system failure (i.e. catalytic converter-type failure) if regular diesel is used in them (due to the higher sulfur content).

My wife and I recently purchased our new coach and decided to go with a pre-ULSD engine due to the limited availability of ULSD and the extra $7-10,000 price jump for the ULSD engine. It was agonizing for me as it seemed that I knew more about the engine capabilities and limitations than the salespeople. If anyone is looking at a new coach make sure you contact the manufacturer and do not rely on the show room sales staff for concrete advice.

As far as lubricity additives, if it comes to the point where ULSD is the only fuel sold I will start adding a lubricity agent. IMHO I do not think that the refineries are adding anything for lubricity (which is contrary to what the Cummins people are saying) but unless you fuel up at a ULSD pump (clearly marked with some sort of green warning label) you do not need to add anything anyway...it's still the same old diesel fuel and probably will be that way for the next 3 years or so. Many of the trucking companies bought all the pre-ULSD tractors they could prior to 2007 so there will be strong demand for 500 ppm sulfur diesel fuel for a few years at least.
__________________
Carroll and Leslie White

Retired Navy (ETCS/SW/AW)
Carnles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another source for older Winnebago parts and manuals Ray,IN General Maintenance and Repair 7 03-13-2015 09:54 PM
Slide-out Nylon bushing supports on older Winnebagos wagonmaster2 General Maintenance and Repair 23 02-26-2009 08:03 AM
ULSD Gelling in Extreme Cold?? Pusherman Winnebago General Discussions 8 02-11-2007 11:24 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Winnebago Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.