Inverter and Refrigerator

BigTrace · 07-16-2006, 12:30 PM

On my '06 Horizon, I've recently noticed that the refrigerator is powered with an inverted circuit. I've done some forum searches to see if others knew of this but there didn't seem to be much on it. The problem is when shore power is disconnected from the coach, the refrigerator will not automatically go to LP. I know many of you may prefer this, but all my previous coaches did not wire the refrigerator through the inverter so I thought this was abnormal. When I have taken the coach in for service a couple of times, I've left the fridge on (in LP mode). When the service guys use the disconnect to kill the coach (and kill the propane) to work on her, they'll turn it back on only to have the fridge reset back into "Auto" which then hits the inverter draining your batteries. I've had to have my full set of batteries replaced now because they have been too dead to resurrect. My buddy Bill is now going through the same thing and having his whole bank of batteries replaced. This post is informational for anyone who wasn't aware as I was not aware.

In speaking with Bryan Funke of Winnebago, he is informing the engineering staff that they need to document the inverted circuit running the fridge better in the owners manual as it is not documented at all. I also learned that it was possible (although not condoned by Winnie) to switch the circuits that control the fridge and the dishwasher (we have that option) through the EMS (Electrical management System, basically the power shedding controller) block. Basically 2 wires. I did that and am now getting the desired effect with the fridge, but the dishwasher is not able to use the same inverted circuit the fridge once used. The dishwasher works fine when plugged into shore power, just not inverted (not that I want it to be used on the inverter anyways). I'm trying to understand why so I broke out the meter and started testing the EMS connectors. When the coach is on shore power, the EMS reads 120 on each of its lugs. When shore power is disconnected and the inverter is on, they don't register with anything which is strange to me. Also, my EMS display reads (on the one place) 50 amps with all circuits operating (although nothing in the amps used display) when the inverter is the only power source!!. When I plug into shore power, everything reads fine again. Is this normal?

BigTrace · 07-16-2006, 12:30 PM

On my '06 Horizon, I've recently noticed that the refrigerator is powered with an inverted circuit. I've done some forum searches to see if others knew of this but there didn't seem to be much on it. The problem is when shore power is disconnected from the coach, the refrigerator will not automatically go to LP. I know many of you may prefer this, but all my previous coaches did not wire the refrigerator through the inverter so I thought this was abnormal. When I have taken the coach in for service a couple of times, I've left the fridge on (in LP mode). When the service guys use the disconnect to kill the coach (and kill the propane) to work on her, they'll turn it back on only to have the fridge reset back into "Auto" which then hits the inverter draining your batteries. I've had to have my full set of batteries replaced now because they have been too dead to resurrect. My buddy Bill is now going through the same thing and having his whole bank of batteries replaced. This post is informational for anyone who wasn't aware as I was not aware.

In speaking with Bryan Funke of Winnebago, he is informing the engineering staff that they need to document the inverted circuit running the fridge better in the owners manual as it is not documented at all. I also learned that it was possible (although not condoned by Winnie) to switch the circuits that control the fridge and the dishwasher (we have that option) through the EMS (Electrical management System, basically the power shedding controller) block. Basically 2 wires. I did that and am now getting the desired effect with the fridge, but the dishwasher is not able to use the same inverted circuit the fridge once used. The dishwasher works fine when plugged into shore power, just not inverted (not that I want it to be used on the inverter anyways). I'm trying to understand why so I broke out the meter and started testing the EMS connectors. When the coach is on shore power, the EMS reads 120 on each of its lugs. When shore power is disconnected and the inverter is on, they don't register with anything which is strange to me. Also, my EMS display reads (on the one place) 50 amps with all circuits operating (although nothing in the amps used display) when the inverter is the only power source!!. When I plug into shore power, everything reads fine again. Is this normal?

John_Canfield · 07-16-2006, 01:18 PM

Trace - I also figured out the refer is on an outlet which is powered by the inverter. I don't mind it in my case because I save my propane and the auto gen start will start the genny when the batteries get too low. We pull about 500 watts total on inverter with no attempt to conserve power in the coach (like unplugging anything) and the genny will start in about two or three hours.

Have you looked at the schematic of the EMS to figure out what is going on? I reviewed it over a year ago and I'm sorry but I don't remember much about it (I'm doing good to know this is Sunday.)

Also you can call the EMS people - I talked to them several months ago and they were quite helpful.

BigTrace · 07-17-2006, 04:53 AM

Hey John,

Thanks for the info. I spoke with Bryan at Winnie about having an auto gen start system as one of the cures. With as many batteries as they are probably replacing, I'm sure they will include that in the next iteration of Vectra/Horizon's. The only new thing the 2007's seem to come with is 2 additional wall switches for auto leveling. Not sure what the big deal is with this, but I guess it was an "asked for" item. Thanks!!

John_Canfield · 07-17-2006, 04:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigTrace:
Hey John,

Thanks for the info. I spoke with Bryan at Winnie about having an auto gen start system as one of the cures. With as many batteries as they are probably replacing, I'm sure they will include that in the next iteration of Vectra/Horizon's. The only new thing the 2007's seem to come with is 2 additional wall switches for auto leveling. Not sure what the big deal is with this, but I guess it was an "asked for" item. Thanks!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Trace - what do the switches do that isn't done on the HWH control panel?

vicsryd · 07-17-2006, 04:46 PM

Wow

that does not sound right to me.

My '05 Journey the fridge 120v is shore/gen power only, not through the inverter. It always flips to LP when neither shore/gen are available. There's a separate 12V connection for the lights, CPU, etc.

Why would Winnie do it differently in one line of coaches and another? And in this case the lower end line has it right. That's wierd even for Winnie.

BigTrace · 07-17-2006, 05:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vicsryd:
Wow

that does not sound right to me.

My '05 Journey the fridge 120v is shore/gen power only, not through the inverter. It always flips to LP when neither shore/gen are available. There's a separate 12V connection for the lights, CPU, etc.

Why would Winnie do it differently in one line of coaches and another? And in this case the lower end line has it right. That's wierd even for Winnie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree with you. Apparently there was a "demand" for this as people are nervous about traveling with the fridge in "LP" mode. Reading between the lines, Winnie doesn't want the liability in case something happens where an LP fire may hurt someone. I've ALWAYS traveled with the fridge in LP mode and will continue to do so just because I don't want to completely kill the house batteries. Even though the coach has a 160amp alternator, I don't think it can keep up with the 500 watt continuous power draw along with the recharging of the chassis battery. More than once now, I've had the displeasure of having dead batteries, even to the extent of starting the generator (which will NOT start without a good charge). I've had to couple the batteries together with the battery boost to start the genny. That ain't right. After my wire swapping, the fridge will NOT work on the inverter, only shore/genny power. If it helps anyone else in the same situation, it's an easy fix, once you know.

BigTrace · 07-17-2006, 05:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Canfield:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigTrace:
Hey John,

Thanks for the info. I spoke with Bryan at Winnie about having an auto gen start system as one of the cures. With as many batteries as they are probably replacing, I'm sure they will include that in the next iteration of Vectra/Horizon's. The only new thing the 2007's seem to come with is 2 additional wall switches for auto leveling. Not sure what the big deal is with this, but I guess it was an "asked for" item. Thanks!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Trace - what do the switches do that isn't done on the HWH control panel? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing I saw was they put 2 other switches (one next to the door where all the others are, and one in the waste compartment area where the tank monitoring switches are). It looks like it may be a toggle switch for raising/lowering the fronts from the front door and the rears from the waste compartment prior to engaging the "auto" function from the dash control pad. From what I've read, people wanted to watch the jacks come down from outside the coach so they can position their jack pads accordingly. I say, do like Bob and buy the industrial sized jack pads if your worried about that. On 9 trips thus far, I've only used my jack pads 1 time.

rebelsbeach · 07-17-2006, 06:03 PM

Mine simply moved from one coach to the other....STILL NEW in the bag.

John_Canfield · 07-18-2006, 08:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rebelsbeach:
Mine simply moved from one coach to the other....STILL NEW in the bag.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Bob - after walking around the Winnie waiting room parts area and looking at the 50$ EACH Dica jack pads for days, I finally decided to spend the BIG BUCKS for them. Of course they were all sold by then

. Fortunately Winnie got some more in and I snatched them up. (Trace - sorry for the digression)

I am SO glad I have the pads because we have encountered many occasions where we have needed them in the last couple of months (including now.) The sites we have had range from hard granite ground to dirt covered with a few inches of gravel (or small rocks!), to dirt without the gravel.

A typical scenario I have found is where there is an acute levelling task, that is the site rolls off one way or another and the jacks need to be almost fully extended to level the coach. The jacks that extend first contact the ground and exert lots of ground pressure, then the next pair of jacks contact the ground and exert even more pressure on the first pair of jacks punching them into the ground. Then the auto-leveller sees an out of level situation and tries to extend the first pair of jacks, then might go back to the second pair of jacks, and finally it gives up with an "excess slope" fault.

Use of the pads almost always eliminates this problem. Sometimes with a really bad site I need to do manual levelling.

What would be REALLY nice to have is a remote-control clicker for the HWH panel - that way I could be outside fine-tuning the pad position while starting and stopping the jack extension.

rebelsbeach · 07-18-2006, 09:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Canfield:
A typical scenario I have found is where there is an acute levelling task, that is the site rolls off one way or another and the jacks need to be almost fully extended to level the coach. The jacks that extend first contact the ground and exert lots of ground pressure, then the next pair of jacks contact the ground and exert even more pressure on the first pair of jacks punching them into the ground. Then the auto-leveller sees an out of level situation and tries to extend the first pair of jacks, then might go back to the second pair of jacks, and finally it gives up with an "excess slope" fault.

Use of the pads almost always eliminates this problem. Sometimes with a really bad site I need to do manual levelling.

What would be REALLY nice to have is a remote-control clicker for the HWH panel - that way I could be outside fine-tuning the pad position while starting and stopping the jack extension. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!

John.... you've done it again.

We encountered this condition in the Bristol/Kingsport KOA on Saturday night and while I think in that particular case the front to back slope was indeed too steep, I do recall several sites where I could have, or "should" have used the pads and would have had more favorable results... THANKS John!!

(PS..... Thanks to more of your grand advice,the people in the Rally think I'm communicating with Mars with the rooftop F2)

vicsryd · 07-19-2006, 04:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigTrace:
From what I've read, people wanted to watch the jacks come down from outside the coach so they can position their jack pads accordingly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would use this feature even though we already used jack pads. My co-pilot isn't savy enought to see probems and most often is engaged in something else when it's time to land. Since getting a new co-pilot is not an option then this would be a good alternative.

On more than one occasion I've had something quirky about the site which when dumping/jacking caused a bind in the big rock guard or, in one case, caused a corner of the rear tire well mud flaps to end up under the jacks after dumping/lowering. Then when I raised/leveled the coach the flap tore off. Now both are dog eared by 4x6 inches on the inner corner.

Leveling form the outside would have allowed me to see the problems before they became problems. As it is now I have to take each step and then run outside to check.

John_Canfield · 07-19-2006, 07:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vicsryd:
--snip--
On more than one occasion I've had something quirky about the site which when dumping/jacking caused a bind in the big rock guard or, in one case, caused a corner of the rear tire well mud flaps to end up under the jacks after dumping/lowering. Then when I raised/leveled the coach the flap tore off. Now both are dog eared by 4x6 inches on the inner corner.

Leveling form the outside would have allowed me to see the problems before they became problems. As it is now I have to take each step and then run outside to check. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Jon - et tu??!! We have had a rear flap just fall off, and then had one torn by the jack coming down. I now have two spares - maybe I should get the razor out and dog-ear them before installation

Bob - I'm still waiting on the Essex review!