Freightliner 24 month air filter??? - Page 5

cbeierl · 09-20-2013, 01:59 PM

As you can see in this Air Filtration Brochure from Parker-Racor, different filters in the ECO series have different airflow directions. The ECO-BC filter has an end inlet and a side outlet providing 'inside-out airflow' (to quote the brochure). The ECO-SE filter has an inlet either on one end or on the side, with an outlet on the other end.

WheelingIt · 09-20-2013, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerichorick

One question not asked that I will ask now. How many folks out there have had, or heard of, a paper air filter coming apart and tearing up and engine? Any one? Even web rumors? Anything at all? Diesel mechanics out there, what is your input?

Just happened to Technomadia last month. Air filter came apart and engine suffered. Their site is down at the moment, but you can read about the issue here
https://www.busconversions.com/bbs/i...&topic=25884.0

wb7auk · 09-20-2013, 02:59 PM

Reverse flow filters have a reduced dirt holding ability, in short they have to be
changed more often.

jerichorick · 09-20-2013, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WheelingIt

Just happened to Technomadia last month. Air filter came apart and engine suffered. Their site is down at the moment, but you can read about the issue here
https://www.busconversions.com/bbs/i...&topic=25884.0

This is the third report I have seen of this type of failure. But in this case it sounds like an application mismatch or a from the factory defect. I did not see enough information to indicate which.

The cfm rating is important, no doubt. Where does the cross reference trust issue come in here? If I have a part number from Freightliner and I decide that I want to try another brand that I like, should trust that the other brand filter will match the specs of the one I am replacing be a fact? Whatever happened with the Baldwin is terrible! I wish that on no one. And this guy was doing the right thing too boot. So, who takes responsibility for that disaster and who foots the bill?

The ECO-BC filter my coach takes is a inverted cone filter and the fresh air flows from the inside to the out. Dirt and water are trapped in the center. If my filter looks very dirty when changed I have let it go far too long or it has a tear in it letting dirt get to the outside of the element. To have this type of filter be sucked apart as the Baldwin was seems a far stretch of the imagination.

I hope to get a reply to my questions from Parker about their filters. Do they have two lines, FARR and RACOR or are there filters all under the same brand name and spec?

I'll post what I find out, if and when.

Rick

wb7auk · 09-20-2013, 04:38 PM

The cfm rating is important, no doubt. Where does the cross reference trust issue come in here? If I have a part number from Freightliner and I decide that I want to try another brand that I like, should trust that the other brand filter will match the specs of the one I am replacing be a fact? Whatever happened with the Baldwin is terrible! I wish that on no one. And this guy was doing the right thing too boot. So, who takes responsibility for that disaster and who foots the bill?

This is why the ISO 5011 test report is so important.
Getting it is another matter not easy for any given filter.

jerichorick · 09-20-2013, 06:55 PM

Here is the latest I received from Parker. It answers many questions and clarifies others.

"On 9/20/2013 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> We have a 3 year shelf life on all of our ECO product line. The service manual mentions a 24 month change out or when your restriction gauge reaches 25" h2o. If you over saturate a paper media, it could break down over time. The media repels water, but if soaked for a long duration it could start to break down.
>
> The ECO BC 11 x 18 Top Inlet 7" I/O is the same thing as a FARR filter. We purchased part of FARR filtration back in 2004.
>
> Our OEM's don't require our ECO Air Cleaners to have a wire mesh inside. Our elements are designed to withstand the engine air flow ratings."

And that's the truth.

Rick

wb7auk · 09-20-2013, 07:13 PM

Rick,
So two things here 3 years max life and some smoke and mirrors double talk.
The last being no wire mesh required because their elements are designed to
with stand the engine air flow requirements.
Maybe with a new filter and the filter is matched to the engine and there are
no others problems with the system.
Any of these requirements not met or a dirty filter and all bets are off, turbo
say hello to parts of the air filter worst case out come.

ARTWERKE · 09-20-2013, 07:27 PM

All I can say is if my air filter is good for 24 mos. it's the only filter I've ever had on anything,that lasts that long.

mel s · 09-20-2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTWERKE

All I can say is if my air filter is good for 24 mos. it's the only filter I've ever had on anything,that lasts that long.

And, I'll bet, the only filter that costs you over $100!

FRR2EYW · 09-20-2013, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb7auk

Rick,
So two things here 3 years max life and some smoke and mirrors double talk.
The last being no wire mesh required because their elements are designed to
with stand the engine air flow requirements.
Maybe with a new filter and the filter is matched to the engine and there are
no others problems with the system.
Any of these requirements not met or a dirty filter and all bets are off, turbo
say hello to parts of the air filter worst case out come.

That's 3 year shelf life and 24 month service life. Lasts longer than my car air filters. I'll just keep on changing them per the schedule. Not a defective part or bad design, just reasonable.

wb7auk · 09-21-2013, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRR2EYW

That's 3 year shelf life and 24 month service life. Lasts longer than my car air filters. I'll just keep on changing them per the schedule. Not a defective part or bad design, just reasonable.

5 year shelf life is what I have in a e mail just the other day from one
of the companies.
What I was pointing out was the way it is written it could mean just
about anything.
But I now know who built the filter I just got that I had to repair in order
to use it.

jerichorick · 09-21-2013, 05:33 AM

I think I am submitting.

No matter how you slice it, the filter has a three year lifespan. Use it in that period of time or toss it. So that means if you don't check the date at the time of install you may overextend the life of the filter

. If the filter was manufactured 15 months ago at install time you now have to change it in 21 months to stay within the three year rule. I hope these things rotate quickly.

And I hope the filter I have coming is dated for full use.

My original post was borne out of ignorance. Now that I have the facts I am still not happy about the change requirement. I just realize that the manufacture is in control of how I spend my money in this case. RVing must be paid if you are going to stay doing it. This is one of those payments. It's not like a toll road. You CAN'T avoid it.

Rick

jerichorick · 09-25-2013, 08:32 AM

I am not trying to beat a dead horse. I just got this back from Parker. To me it just adds to the confusion. My question to him follows his answer:

Hi Rick,

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I've been trying to track down some information for you.

Filter media ages and dries out with time. As any paper ages it becomes brittle and can crack creating a bypass. Shelf life takes into account that after a potential 3 years of storage, the filter gets installed and then is run on the vehicle for several years for a total of 4 to 6,7, years of actual useful life. What you do not want is a filter to set on the shelf for 10 years, get installed and run for another 10 years because your media will not stand up that long.

I hope this information is useful to you and your colleagues.

Thank You,
_______________________________________

Danny Berkowitz Parker Racor
Air & CCV Product Manager 805 West Street
Parker Hannifin Corporation Holly Springs, MS 38635
Racor Division Cell: (614) 216-2719
[email protected] www.racorcustomers.com

From: Rick Young <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Date: 09/20/2013 07:49 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Farr/Racor?

Hi Danny,

I appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions. Thank you. Soaking the filter I can understand as being a bad idea.

Please forgive this last question. Why are you limiting your filter shelf life to 3 years?

It is tough to think in terms of logic because it can be so flawed with the wrong reasoning. I don't put a lot of mileage on my coach each year and I avoid driving in the rain if I can, though it does happen. It just seems like the filter should go a longer time than 24 months under the conditions I subject my coach to.

Then there is the three year shelf life. If I were to get a filter 15 months after manufacturing then I would only have a usable life of 21 month according to your 3 year self life rule. Again, this seems so short a time for the filter under such lightweight usage. But that is only my logic speaking.

I see that you coordinate with the engine designers and they don't require the mesh. I understand.

I deeply appreciate you time and information.

Sincerely,
Rick

Statgeek · 09-25-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datrbone8

I would call a lawsuit over a $ 60 item that gets done once every 2 years "frivolous"

+2 on this one.

We are a nation of too much suing.. Perhaps one reason for the recommendation that these get replaced every 2 years is because someone sued the filter manufacturer because a filter failed within a 2 year period and caused damage to someone's engine. So.. to protect themselves from a future lawsuit, they put a 2 year time stamp on the product.

Let's not sue. Let's just suck it up and put in a $70 filter and move on. It isn't worth the personal grief and the higher prices that we will pay down the road that is the ultimate cost of excessive law suits.

jerichorick · 09-25-2013, 05:06 PM

Ignorance is curable. Stupid is terminal.

I plead ignorant when I opened the discussion. OK. No lawsuit needed.

If you read carefully my post above this one, you will see that the Parker Racor rep, Danny, has concerns about the shelf life ONLY. Doing the air filter inspection by the book is a good idea. Watching the vacuum indicator is also a good idea. The combination of using these to procedures correctly should be sufficient to keep the air quality for the engine acceptable. I am speaking for Cummins only because our air cleaners are mounted to the side and are "L" shaped, drawing air to the engine through the center of the filter and clean air out the outside of the filter.

From what I understand about the Cat engine, the filter is straight and is up high on its side. This configuration seems to me to be trouble prone. The mechanical forces on the filter are much more severe because the length of the filter material is not as well supported as in the "L" canister. And I have no idea how the environment up high is compared with the low mount of the Cummins.

Danny states that the air filter can go as long as 10 years in the correct service conditions. But after 3 years on the shelf all bets are off.

We need to make our own decisions on this topic. I vote for monitoring/inspecting and replacing when needed in Cummins land. Cat? You're on your own.

Rick

wb7auk · 09-25-2013, 05:56 PM

Rick,
I am not sure how you arrive that Danny states a filter can go 10 years.
All of the Eco filters can be mounted in any position, while I agree that lack
of support for the media is a major problem and play's a part in failure.
As I stated earlier I have a e-mail that states 5 to 7 years then do not use.
That time period is the life of the filter and the chassis maker wants it changed
every 2 years and they are suggesting to change it every year at their training
classes.
I totally agree with your statement "We need to make our own decisions "
spend a couple hundred dollars today or many thousands of dollars later if you
were wrong.

Pelledan · 09-25-2013, 06:18 PM

Does anyone know if there is a manufacturing date code anywhere on the filter that states when it was made? Without that information any filter longevity projection is pure guess work.

Dan

wb7auk · 09-25-2013, 06:25 PM

Dan,
There is a build date on the container the filter comes in and there is a sticker
on the filter also, that is not to say it is on all filters.

cbeierl · 09-25-2013, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb7auk

Rick,
...
All of the Eco filters can be mounted in any position, ...

Just fyi, at least the ECO-BC filter used on my coach must be mounted vertically with the intake at the top and the output at the side (and the rubber drain nozzle at the bottom).

jerichorick · 09-26-2013, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb7auk

Rick,
I am not sure how you arrive that Danny states a filter can go 10 years.
All of the Eco filters can be mounted in any position, while I agree that lack
of support for the media is a major problem and play's a part in failure.
As I stated earlier I have a e-mail that states 5 to 7 years then do not use.
That time period is the life of the filter and the chassis maker wants it changed
every 2 years and they are suggesting to change it every year at their training
classes.
I totally agree with your statement "We need to make our own decisions "
spend a couple hundred dollars today or many thousands of dollars later if you
were wrong.

As I stated above. Please read CAREFULLY. This is in the email from Danny. What you do not want is a filter to set on the shelf for 10 years, get installed and run for another 10 years because your media will not stand up that long.

Sitting on the shelf is a problem. Running it is not as long as wisdom applies and it is installed before the end of the 3 year shelf life expiration.

According to a friend that just went to the Freightliner school the 2 year change is being extended to 3 years for some reason. But the manufacture rep, Danny, has implied that the condition of the filter is more important than the years in service. A filter that has dried out on a shelf for 3 years is not to be trusted.

About the way a filter is mounted is important. If it is laying on top of the engine it is being placed in a very constantly hot environment and, if somehow, water gets to it it can not drain off or dry as quickly as a vertically mounted filter. As far as how the filter is mounted in the Cat, all I know is the tech that worked on my coach does not like changing them because they are up high in the engine compartment and hard to get to. And they have the coach on a lift.

Some out there pay $60 or $70 for their filter and are eager to join the rest of the throw away society, tossing them just because. Some of us pay $110 or more and are more Scotch than others. I am among the more frugal. But my reasoning is a combination of Cummins design trust and observation over an extended period of time.

Scold me if you think you should. I am finally convinced because of the evidence presented by the Racor rep that we are changing our filters with the wrong reasoning in place.

My DW is waiting to have coffee with me. Got to go.

Rick