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Old 09-27-2012, 12:15 AM   #1
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Fiberglass thermal cracking on Win/Itasca

We were excited to find what seemed the perfect package (coach and toad) only to find thermal cracking in the darker colors on a 36G (2005). As I have read this was a Owens-Corning defect in f/g panels for several years. I had not read anything regarding Win/Itasca being affected. Can anyone enlighten me on this issue? I would like to know more if this cracking is somewhat "terminal"? When did Win/Itasca change their methods to eliminate this problem. Thermal cracking has been discussed on other forums before but I had not read it here.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:20 AM   #2
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Cure is to replace the whole side of the RV. On our DSDP that's an $18,000 cost per side.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:04 AM   #3
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Or if the price is right - very right - just accept it as a cosmetic thing
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:11 AM   #4
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I talked to Dave Nagel of CDI who does all painting for Winnie factory. He told me is is tiny cracks in the paint with dark colors showing it more. The fix is to do a paint job. He said they charge about $12,000 for a full body job. Mine has it and the dark colors have more cracking. Not noticeable except up real close.

I suspect the heat held by dark colors is a factor plus the white f the Fiberglas shows more against the dark color.

My rig is '05 Itasca Meridian 36G.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:27 AM   #5
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CapnQball,
We've seen this condition on multiple brands/styles of Class A coaches in a wide year range. It's been discussed several times and the majority of folks who've either had/have it, and or have dealt with it have called it: "Crazing". The condition, based on multiple testimonies, is in the fiberglass panels installed from the factory and manifests itself some time after the first sale of the coach, when new.

Some have been fortunate, if you call it fortunate, to have had this condition start to appear while the coach is under warranty. Those are the REALLY fortunate people because, as has been stated, the entire fiberglass panel/side of the coach, MUST BE REPLACED! It is NOT a paint condition. The manufacturers have admitted they received fiberglass panels of inferior quality and, while they SAY they didn't know it at the time of installation, they were forced to deal with it when the coach was under warranty.

Some folks who, were not so lucky and wanted to have the condition corrected, have paid very high prices for re-paint of the coach, only to have the condition, reappear some time later. Yes, you can "mask" the condition with a repaint, but, as I am lead to believe, and I'm certainly no expert here, it WILL return because, it's in the glass, not the paint and or prep.

We looked as several Meridians, Monaco's, Providences, Discoveries, Country Coaches that had/have that condition. Yep, it's true that the condition is more prevalent in the darker colors but, it does appear in the lighter ones too, from time to time. We walked away from many a-nice coach due to this condition. We certainly were not going to pay a high price and then, turn right around and pay another high price for repainting a coach, only to have it return at a later date. Here's one we almost made a deal on, during an inspection in a rain storm that masked the condition. We returned a week or two later to take a test drive and the sun was out and so was the condition. We walked.
Scott
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:16 AM   #6
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Thermal cracking, great. I have poor clear coat that continues to flake away, some of it was covered under warranty in 2005. But now the clear coat flakes away on the back cap, and engine cover. I'm now getting small dots on one side the same that I can see in the picture. This RV is kept at my house, washed and waxed often. One positive, the roof of my RV has a great finish and looks like new.

Don't forget the expoy joints continue to loosen I wonder what is next. That said, the Freightliner power train is the best; strong and dependable. The "House" portion has been consistently good.

It's nice of Dave Nagel offering to repaint a poor initial paint job for $12,000. Too bad it wasn't done right the first time. How many poor paint jobs are on the road and he still has the contract!

Four years ago I was at a Winnebago rally and told the West Coast Winnebago Rep about my paint, he said "Sorry it's out of warranty." I thought I paid once for a good paint job!

I have had two other motorhomes, six trucks, numerous cars and of the paint jobs aged well with no disappointments. Compare that with the poorest paint job I have on the most expensive vehicle I have purchased.

When people ask me about the overall product, I reply honestly. Referrals to Winnebago, be honest? Hope you got good fiberglass and a good paint job!
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #7
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The big question I have now is when did Winnebago change their FG panels to eliminate the issue? 2006? 2007? The '05 owner I talked to didn't know anything about this issue. I felt bad for having to tell him his coach has a 'pox' and it's not likely to get better.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:12 PM   #8
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Another question: Has anyone definitively stated whether this crazing will or will not migrate deep enough to cause delam in some forseeable future?
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:23 PM   #9
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capnqball,
To my knowledge, and based on the amount of reading and research I've done on this "Crazing" thing, I've seen no evidence, reported or otherwise eluding to the fact that crazing will eventually lead to delamination of the paneling to the coach structure. Also, the best of my knowledge, it's primarily a surface issue and doesn't go very deep but, sure causes enough damage to wreak havoc on paint jobs of very nice looking motor homes.

We almost made a commitment on a Mountain Air about 400 miles away from us. We looked at a zillion pictures from the dealer and it looked really nice. But, when I finally got a sales person on the phone, I asked him to go out and make sure, this rig had ABSOLUTELY NO CRAZING on it prior to our driving such a long distance to do a more serious inspection and test drive. He came back to the phone and said, yep, it's got crazing and, he was embarrassed that it was not reported in the ad.
Scott
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Old 10-02-2012, 02:15 AM   #10
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Thank you all for your replies on my questions. We have pretty much decided to not pursue the '05 36G due to the crazing in the darker colors. I'm pretty picky on stuff like this and I know it would bug me to no end as I watched our "baby" get progressively worse. We have now found an '07 which so far on initial inspection didn't have the crazing. I wish I knew when the factory changed things to alleviate the issue. If I call the factory I'm not sure what they would tell me, if anything, as I'm not yet an owner. I might try tomorrow anyway. More to come, maybe..........
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:45 AM   #11
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paint job will not fix it. I had mine done at precision painting in bremen, ind and the cracks can be seen under the paint, just a matter of time before it comes through the paint
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:20 AM   #12
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Implied Warranty of Merchantability Law & Legal Definition



An implied warranty is a contract law term for certain assurances that are presumed in the sale of products or real property. It arises from a transaction. It is the inherent understanding by the buyer, rather than from the express representations of the seller. There are implied warranties in every sales transaction that the goods sold are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used. This is called the implied warranty of merchantability. Implied warranty of merchantability is an unwritten and unspoken guarantee to the buyer that goods purchased conform to ordinary standards of care. Under such warranty of merchantability, the goods sold: are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used, would pass without objection in the trade, is adequately packaged, labeled, and conforms to the promises made in the label. The policy behind the implied warranty of merchantability is to motivate the seller to ensure the product's proper performance before placing it on the market.


I would pursue this vigorously in the event I had the problem stated.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnqball View Post
Thank you all for your replies on my questions. We have pretty much decided to not pursue the '05 36G due to the crazing in the darker colors. I'm pretty picky on stuff like this and I know it would bug me to no end as I watched our "baby" get progressively worse. We have now found an '07 which so far on initial inspection didn't have the crazing. I wish I knew when the factory changed things to alleviate the issue. If I call the factory I'm not sure what they would tell me, if anything, as I'm not yet an owner. I might try tomorrow anyway. More to come, maybe..........
capnqball,
Well Sir, I think you're wise for walking away from a unit that has crazing on it. As previously stated, we walked away from a few that otherwise would have been pretty much what we wanted. But, in paying as much as we did and you will, we too could not walk out and see, EVERY DAY, the effects of that crazing and knowing it will NEVER get better. I have no idea when any of the manufacturers changed requirements and or chemical makeup of the FG panels that are on their coaches now. I'm not sure anyone does, with the exception of the management of those firms.

All you can do is continue to pursue the rig of your dreams and if you find one, and it has no crazing, that will not develop any in the near or distant future. Good luck.
Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by ron55 View Post
paint job will not fix it. I had mine done at precision painting in bremen, ind and the cracks can be seen under the paint, just a matter of time before it comes through the paint
ron55,
Yes Sir, roger that. As I stated in an earlier responce, it's not in the paint, it's in the glass. You can have your rig painted every day if you like, and it will still re-appear. Painting simply "maskes" the issues, for a short while. Then, just about when you've made your last payment ON THE PAINT JOB, the crazing starts to reappear. Many people have reported that exact scenario, time and time again.
Scott
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
CapnQball,
We've seen this condition on multiple brands/styles of Class A coaches in a wide year range. It's been discussed several times and the majority of folks who've either had/have it, and or have dealt with it have called it: "Crazing". The condition, based on multiple testimonies, is in the fiberglass panels installed from the factory and manifests itself some time after the first sale of the coach, when new.

Some have been fortunate, if you call it fortunate, to have had this condition start to appear while the coach is under warranty. Those are the REALLY fortunate people because, as has been stated, the entire fiberglass panel/side of the coach, MUST BE REPLACED! It is NOT a paint condition. The manufacturers have admitted they received fiberglass panels of inferior quality and, while they SAY they didn't know it at the time of installation, they were forced to deal with it when the coach was under warranty.

Some folks who, were not so lucky and wanted to have the condition corrected, have paid very high prices for re-paint of the coach, only to have the condition, reappear some time later. Yes, you can "mask" the condition with a repaint, but, as I am lead to believe, and I'm certainly no expert here, it WILL return because, it's in the glass, not the paint and or prep.

We looked as several Meridians, Monaco's, Providences, Discoveries, Country Coaches that had/have that condition. Yep, it's true that the condition is more prevalent in the darker colors but, it does appear in the lighter ones too, from time to time. We walked away from many a-nice coach due to this condition. We certainly were not going to pay a high price and then, turn right around and pay another high price for repainting a coach, only to have it return at a later date. Here's one we almost made a deal on, during an inspection in a rain storm that masked the condition. We returned a week or two later to take a test drive and the sun was out and so was the condition. We walked.
Scott
Yep, that's what ours looks like. The rig is 10 years old now so it's not really worth spending $36,000 to have two new sides put on and repainted now. The condition did start showing up during the warranty period but Newmar said they would "buff it out" and it'd be fine. Well, it isn't and I'm not sure any of the paperwork from 2004 shows that I brought it up during the warranty period. If it does I suppose I could pursue it further but my wife may have liver/pancreas cancer so that's taking precedence right now!
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:21 PM   #15
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Well folks, this afternoon I called Winnebago Industries Customer Service. They did ask for a VIN but I explained we were looking hard at a couple coaches and needed to have something explained. I simply asked, since I knew the '05's were falling victim to the crazing, if he knew when the company changed panel vendor/material to alleviate the problem. His answer was sobering, stating that there were "some" coaches even in '09 that may have had those panels used. I left it at that as he seemed like he didn't want to carry the conversation further. So I pretty much received my answer as to when the problem would be unlikely, now to decide what the next move will be.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:58 AM   #16
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WOODBURNER: Very good advice. I got my motor home completely re-bodied from using this approach. No I never had to hire an attorney, although it was clear that I would if necessary.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:57 AM   #17
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Izzy,


Can you send me an e-mail of how I can contact you regarding the paint/side panel replacement issue? I've had a senior moment and can't remember how to PM.

My e-mail is [email protected]


Thanks,

DOUG
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:05 AM   #18
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Izzy,


Brain cell re-generated. I sent you a p.m.
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Old 10-20-2012, 01:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnqball View Post
Thank you all for your replies on my questions. We have pretty much decided to not pursue the '05 36G due to the crazing in the darker colors. I'm pretty picky on stuff like this and I know it would bug me to no end as I watched our "baby" get progressively worse. We have now found an '07 which so far on initial inspection didn't have the crazing. I wish I knew when the factory changed things to alleviate the issue. If I call the factory I'm not sure what they would tell me, if anything, as I'm not yet an owner. I might try tomorrow anyway. More to come, maybe..........
Our 2006 has it. Gets a bit worse each year. We really notice it when we hand wax the coach.
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